Daikin Altherma 3 and Solis Inverter

BuzzFish · 14-08-2020 9:58am #1

Hi folks,
Hoping for a little guidance here. I have recently moved into a new house in which we upgraded from the standard gas offering to a Daikin Altherma 3 Air to Water system. All working away fine.

The house has 8 PV panels on the roof, and this has only been fully commissioned this week by the builder. It’s using a Solis-mini-2500-4G inverter. Having been exporting to the grid already and I want to make use of the surplus.

When I ordered the Daikin unit, I also ordered the LAN Adapter (Online controller & PV Panel) - BRP069A61 with the intention of taking excess energy to the Daikin unit for hot water. So far, I have this unit wired in from a LAN perspective only and its working fine.
The builder wants nothing to do with linking the Daikin to the PV setup as I specified the Daikin unit. I've not spoken to the Solis installer yet but the electrician for the house knows nothing about Daikin or the Solis.

My question: Has anyone else on here got a similar setup and has the Daikin and Solis hardware linked… that could guide me though the setup..... or recommend someone if I require a specialist. It seems like I'm 80% there but just need a pulse metre installed and maybe connectivity up to the inverter.

BFMadden · 16-08-2020 4:10pm

A LAN adapter allows you to control the Heat Pump from an app or browser, it wouldn't have anything to do.with connect your PV setup to the Heat Pump.

BuzzFish · 16-08-2020 9:26pm

BFMadden wrote: »

A LAN adapter allows you to control the Heat Pump from an app or browser, it wouldn't have anything to do.with connect your PV setup to the Heat Pump.

Thanks for the reply but as per my post the model I have also makes it possible to connect to photovoltaïc solar panels to optimise self-consumption of electricity produced.

thos · 19-08-2020 1:46pm

I've not done it, unfortunately my Altherma is older and won't support the Smart Grid via LAN Adapater, but I did do a good bit of research here in my attempt at it.

You can try talking to Daikin directly, they weren't a massive help unfortunately. Tried to fob me off on a dealer, NRG who do both Daikin and Solar, but they weren't clear whether they had done the integration.

The info you need should all be here, in the installer reference guide - https://www.daikin.nl/content/dam/document-library/Installer-reference-guide/ctrl/BRP069A61,%20BRP069A62_4PEN464229-1_2017_08_Installer%20reference%20guide_English.pdf

Also try this doc to make sure all your versions are correct and it's a supported config - https://www.daikin.nl/content/dam/document-library/Installer-reference-guide/ctrl/BRP069A61,%20BRP069A62_4PEN464229-1_2017_08_Installer%20reference%20guide_English.pdf

Section 8 of the Installer doc is most relevant to how the Smart Grid piece works.

It talks about needing digital outputs from the inverter to help the LAN Adpater switch Smart Grid modes, but from what I can see it's not very applicable to us, and I don't believe any inverters support this, nor is there a standard to do so. The use case I was planning for was buffering energy in the domestic hot water (DHW) tank, as opposed to in the rooms / space heating or cooling. Which reduces the need for the inverter to do any mode switching (as it likely can't)

If you're only talking about DHW, then it becomes about the power limitation, and once you've got an energy meter hooked up to the LAN Adapter, then you can do this dynamically and it should operate in a similar fashion to an EDDI (in general concept, not diverting practice)

So the whole digital outputs / switching modes could actually become static wiring, leaving the unit in a set mode, and relying on the power meter for dynamic power adjustment.

That was my theory, unfortunately my unit was too old to support it, so I never got to try implement this. If the static wiring didn't work, then some small switches or even a Raspberry Pi could be used to flip a set of relays to adjust the modes.

Good luck, let me know how it goes.

Tom

BuzzFish · 19-08-2020 10:11pm

thos wrote: »

I've not done it, unfortunately my Altherma is older and won't support the Smart Grid via LAN Adapater, but I did do a good bit of research here in my attempt at it.

You can try talking to Daikin directly, they weren't a massive help unfortunately. Tried to fob me off on a dealer, NRG who do both Daikin and Solar, but they weren't clear whether they had done the integration.

The info you need should all be here, in the installer reference guide - https://www.daikin.nl/content/dam/document-library/Installer-reference-guide/ctrl/BRP069A61,%20BRP069A62_4PEN464229-1_2017_08_Installer%20reference%20guide_English.pdf

Also try this doc to make sure all your versions are correct and it's a supported config - https://www.daikin.nl/content/dam/document-library/Installer-reference-guide/ctrl/BRP069A61,%20BRP069A62_4PEN464229-1_2017_08_Installer%20reference%20guide_English.pdf

Section 8 of the Installer doc is most relevant to how the Smart Grid piece works.

It talks about needing digital outputs from the inverter to help the LAN Adpater switch Smart Grid modes, but from what I can see it's not very applicable to us, and I don't believe any inverters support this, nor is there a standard to do so. The use case I was planning for was buffering energy in the domestic hot water (DHW) tank, as opposed to in the rooms / space heating or cooling. Which reduces the need for the inverter to do any mode switching (as it likely can't)

If you're only talking about DHW, then it becomes about the power limitation, and once you've got an energy meter hooked up to the LAN Adapter, then you can do this dynamically and it should operate in a similar fashion to an EDDI (in general concept, not diverting practice)

So the whole digital outputs / switching modes could actually become static wiring, leaving the unit in a set mode, and relying on the power meter for dynamic power adjustment.

That was my theory, unfortunately my unit was too old to support it, so I never got to try implement this. If the static wiring didn't work, then some small switches or even a Raspberry Pi could be used to flip a set of relays to adjust the modes.

Good luck, let me know how it goes.

Tom

Tom,

This is great info, thank you for taking the time to reply.

As an avid user of home assistant and SmartThings I think the idea of using a relay triggered based on excess energy is the way to go.

I'll have a punt at this and report back so you have some info should you ever need it.

Thanks again.

thos · 20-08-2020 1:58pm

Let me know how it goes

graememk · 24-08-2020 10:16pm

BuzzFish wrote: »

Tom,

This is great info, thank you for taking the time to reply.

As an avid user of home assistant and SmartThings I think the idea of using a relay triggered based on excess energy is the way to go.

I'll have a punt at this and report back so you have some info should you ever need it.

Thanks again.

Have a look at Emonpi from openenergymonitor

its a pi with power monitoring hardware, ie CT clamps etc and then you can control things from it using MQTT and Node-RED, also can display energy useage, excess/ export etc

They also have heatpump monitoring and control(i think) in development

BuzzFish · 25-08-2020 8:16am

Small update on this...

So I'm using a Aeotec HEM device to monitor the Solar, Grid and Daikin power draw in my house. I use this device:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Aeotec-Electricity-Monitor-Consumption-detects/dp/B01708RIYU/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=aeotec+3+phase&qid=1598339125&s=diy&sr=1-1
(Ignore the fact its 3 phase, you can use it for monitoring 3 seperate cables in single phase too.

So this gives me detail on grid consumption/export.

Next is the crude bit.... I found a NODERed flow that connects to the Daikin LAN adapter using a websocket and I have modified it to get me what I wanted. Firstly it gets me the DHW tank temperature (to display on my smart panels) and it also has the ability to swich the Daikin to "Powerful Mode". I trigger this based on the export value of the grid. My logic is.... if 1000w+ is being exported for >5 mins, enable powerful mode to heat DHW to comfort level (VIA a switch in Home assistant). When the grid consumption increases beyond (a to be decided value) disable Powerful mode again by turning off that same switch.

This is very crude. I'm still trying to work out what electricity meter I need to have the Daikin fed the grid export to do this properly. I logged a call with them but I'm waiting....

If you are interested in the NodeRed flow, here it is for you:

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Target"},{"property":"device_class","value":"Sensor"},{"property":"icon","value":"mdi:water-pump"},{"property":"unit_of_measurement","value":"°C"}],"state":"payload[\"m2m:rsp\"].pc[\"m2m:cin\"].con","stateType":"msg","attributes":[{"property":"con","value":"","valueType":"num"}],"resend":true,"outputLocation":"","outputLocationType":"none","inputOverride":"allow","x":1890,"y":420,"wires":[[]]},{"id":"7426b995.bf1328","type":"ha-entity","z":"98865fa5.3b5c3","name":"Excess Power Switch","server":"382c1cb7.63e5f4","version":1,"debugenabled":false,"outputs":2,"entityType":"switch","config":[{"property":"name","value":"Excess Power"},{"property":"device_class","value":""},{"property":"icon","value":""},{"property":"unit_of_measurement","value":""}],"state":"payload","stateType":"msg","attributes":[],"resend":true,"outputLocation":"","outputLocationType":"none","inputOverride":"allow","x":210,"y":560,"wires":],[},{"id":"a890d834.fb0ea8","type":"server-state-changed","z":"98865fa5.3b5c3","name":"Excess Power","server":"382c1cb7.63e5f4","version":1,"exposeToHomeAssistant":false,"haConfig":[{"property":"name","value":""},{"property":"icon","value":""}],"entityidfilter":"switch.excess_power","entityidfiltertype":"exact","outputinitially":false,"state_type":"str","haltifstate":"off","halt_if_type":"str","halt_if_compare":"is","outputs":2,"output_only_on_state_change":true,"x":170,"y":980,"wires":"ca717895.bd5ca8"],["faa6b69e.d18668"},{"id":"d55fbade.d22c38","type":"websocket-client","z":"","path":"ws://192.168.1.244/mca","tls":"","wholemsg":"false"},{"id":"382c1cb7.63e5f4","type":"server","z":"","name":"Home Assistant"}]

thos · 25-08-2020 11:47am

Nice progress!

BuzzFish wrote: »

I'm still trying to work out what electricity meter I need to have the Daikin fed the grid export to do this properly. I logged a call with them but I'm waiting....

From the installer doc:

Image%202020-08-25%20at%2011.42.16%20a.m..png?source=viewer&v=4739224c300f18cd7aa34dd1d9c6b335

Should be like these - from my searches a while back:
https://ie.rs-online.com/web/p/digital-power-meters/7894089/
https://shmmetershop.co.uk/product/abb-a42-steel-mid-approved-single-phase-ct-connected-kwh-meter-with-pulse-output-and-modbus-a42-112-100/

If anyone else looks at the EmonPi route, some folk have gone a different way to the LAN Adapter and gone direct to P1/P2+RS485/Modbus. Looks pretty lairy
https://community.openenergymonitor.org/t/hack-my-heat-pump-and-publish-data-onto-emoncms/2551/106

BuzzFish · 25-08-2020 1:06pm

thos wrote: »

Nice progress!

From the installer doc:

Should be like these - from my searches a while back:
https://ie.rs-online.com/web/p/digital-power-meters/7894089/
https://shmmetershop.co.uk/product/abb-a42-steel-mid-approved-single-phase-ct-connected-kwh-meter-with-pulse-output-and-modbus-a42-112-100/

If anyone else looks at the EmonPi route, some folk have gone a different way to the LAN Adapter and gone direct to P1/P2+RS485/Modbus. Looks pretty lairy
https://community.openenergymonitor.org/t/hack-my-heat-pump-and-publish-data-onto-emoncms/2551/106

I saw that in the doc (BRP069A61-A62_4PEN464229-1B_2018_10_Installer%20refernce%20guide_English.pdf) this morning as it happens but having a look those part numbers look to be out of date as the 212 is showing as discontinued in a few places.

This page below proved useful though and I decided on the 311 meted instead of trying to find the 212. This will give me 2 outputs so I can stick one to the Daikin and use one in Home Assistant or maybe use for something else in the future. I don't believe I need MBUS/ModBUS but as I use a night meter I thought maybe there is some use in the 311 as it accounts for multi tarrif. I may have over spent this but would be a pain to try get this working and come up short.
https://www.camax.co.uk/product/abb-b21-single-phase-65a-meter-series-2ma10014r1000-2ma100149r1000-2ma100152r1000

I just bought the meter form Germany so I guess I'll await delivery and update you....

https://www.elektronetshop.de/product/abb-wechselstromzaehler-2cma100154r1000-typ-b21-311-100.2867598.html

graememk · 26-08-2020 9:12am

Been looking into nodeRed for other projects, and just for curiosity.

It's crazy powerful, if you can talk to the machine in any way there is a whole load of things you could do.

And then you have the people with their head really screwed on making tools for the rest of us that can be just plugged in.

(There's mqtt relays available too, if you need to switch a signal or provide power to something)

I think if my dishwasher and washing machine if you set them going then turn them off, they will pick up where they left off when they regain power.

thebigmc · 13-06-2022 9:36pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/114416498#Comment_114416498

@BuzzFish Digging up your thread as I'm interested to hear how this has worked out please. I'm researching the best heat pump to use excess solar and this is the only one I've come across.

I'm linking a video showing a PV setup with the same heat pump and LAN controller for reference: Looks like a different invertor setup to yours.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkAtnWUb_fo&t=242s

From the comments on that video:

"Smart Energy ZigBee® Plug-in (for set-app) - as on the picture https://www.solaredge.com/products/device-control#/ to send Zigbee signal to: Dry Contact Switch (Smart Energy Relay) https://www.solaredge.com/sites/default/files/se-device-control-dry-contact-switch-installation-guide.pdf or Smart Energy Socket or Smart Energy switch. Daikin LAN Adapter is able to use all of them.

Power meter https://www.solaredge.com/products/metering-and-sensors/solaredge-modbus-meter#/ with clamps

Bad thing is, that HP will be switched On and Off several times a day, which will affect lifespan of HP.."

the_amazing_raisin · 14-06-2022 4:12pm

I think most heat pumps have an internal minimum runtime to prevent short cycling of the pump, so I don't think it'll suffer much of an impact

I'm interested as well to hear how this setup went. I'll probably be upgrading the heat pump in a few years and I'm looking at Daikin for their Solar PV integration among other things

thebigmc · 15-06-2022 2:10pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119202027#Comment_119202027

@the_amazing_raisin Sorry to go off topic, but what other benefits are you seeing with the Daikin Heat pump? As far as I can see, its the only one with manufacturer integrated PV available.

the_amazing_raisin · 15-06-2022 4:01pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119206617#Comment_119206617

I think the main advantage to me is that Daikin have been building heat pumps for over 30 years, and seem to have a few agents in Ireland

Currently I've a Dimplex heat pump, and while it's fine, I wouldn't go with them again. You can tell they're new to heat pumps and they only seem to have one or two customer service agents around Dublin, so not great for getting it serviced or fixed

BuzzFish · 16-06-2022 2:15pm

Hi folks,

Have this working perfectly for quite a while now. Took a while to get all the settings right but once my battery is full (recent addition!) the heatpump will take DHW to 53degrees using excess solar.

If you go this road, I will paste in my complete config. You cannot get this working on "leaving water setpoint" control. You need the heatpump to be stat controlled (most are but my installer had configured the heatpump wrong!)

Ross.

Mr Q · 16-06-2022 3:00pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119206617#Comment_119206617

I have a NIBE HP and you can connect it to a CT clamp kit they sell to use the excess solar. I have purchased one but yet to fit it.

Once fitted it can control DHW, heating and cooling with the solar excess. Hopefully it will work well but I know there was at least one user on here with one and they seemed to have issues with it.

There are definitely more companies than just Daikin and NIBE with a way to integrate solar PV.

markmcmullan · 12-07-2022 10:03am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119211133#Comment_119211133

Hi BuzzFish - I'm looking to do this (https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058253949/solis-s6-daikin-altherma-3-heat-pump#latest) - would you mind sharing any tips you might have on your setup? How did you get the digital inputs to the LAN adapter?

Thanks in advance

Mark

ljordan_07 · 21-01-2023 10:23am

Hey Ross,

Fair dues on figuring this out.

I have the same setup and I was wondering would you be interested in sharing?

Save me a bit of time.

Thanks

BuzzFish · 21-01-2023 10:35am

Hi folks. Happy to share end to end setup. I'll make a video and post over the weekend. Happy to take questions on the back of it for any gaps etc.

ljordan_07 · 24-01-2023 9:00pm

Looking at doing the same thing.

What type of inverter do you have?

BuzzFish · 06-02-2023 12:53pm

https://youtu.be/y73GKb75tdE

Sorry it took so long...here's the vid

Worth mentioning.... I now have a sofar inverter and not Solis as I added batteries and upgraded to hybrid inverter.

the_amazing_raisin · 08-02-2023 9:50pm

Looks awesome, thanks for posting that

I wonder if any inverters can provide a pulse output directly, and maybe trigger the unit to come on if the battery is full 🤔

graememk · 08-02-2023 9:58pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120217423#Comment_120217423

Im sure a esp8266 could emulate it and just control it from home assistant.

the_amazing_raisin · 08-02-2023 11:29pm

So how does it work as a diverter? Say your hot water is set to 48C and is already up to temp, or perhaps is on a timed program and not scheduled to come on until later

Will the LAN adapter override this and force the heat pump to go beyond its setpoints?

Same for space heating, will it start heating (or cooling) regardless of the setpoint?

BuzzFish · 13-02-2023 8:09am

It will override and push DHW to about 53 degrees, the limit of a heatpump without using backup heaters. I actually have room buffering off now.

the_amazing_raisin · 13-02-2023 8:23am

Ah that's cool, I guess on days you'd have enough excess solar to fully charge the battery and heat the water you'd probably be more interested in cooling the rooms down

the_amazing_raisin · 17-02-2023 11:06pm

Quick question for @BuzzFish, are you seeing excessive cycling of the heat pump when it's being used as a diverter?

I'm wondering what the best approach is around this. The straightforward approach is to just toggle the "Recommend on" relay when there's excess solar and the heat pump will try to stay within the excess

However, cycling a lot of bad for both efficiency and longevity of the heat pump

So I'm wondering if it's a better approach to toggle the "Recommend on" when there's excess, but not toggle it off until the battery level drops a bit , say below 80%?

Chances are the heat pump will be running mostly off solar during that time, but the odd cloud won't cause it to stop and start in a short period.

Since it's taking from batteries, you're still using solar to power it, and if you've decent insulation then you're basically just buffering heat for later anyway

JoannaHiace · 10-03-2023 5:29pm

This is utterly fascinating.

I've been obsessed with this concept for the last while, and nobody seems to know anything about it. Apart from you guys here. Thanks for the headsup @the_amazing_raisin !!!

I asked both Daikin and Samsung and they knew nothing about this. NOTHING!!!

So bravo @BuzzFish !!!

Ok, so a few questions if you don't mind?

Which Daikin Altherm do you have? Our architect specified the All-in-One unit, although I think you have the wall mounted unit with a separate HWC? Would your setup potentially work for either?
How did it work out for you last Summer? I guess you had the heating turned off, and that the heat pump was just for heating the water. So in general, did you get enough sunshine for the Heat Pump to work on solar every day?
If there isn't sunshine during the day, do you have the heat pump programmed to then come on anyway to heat the water using the grid?
Seems like the heat pump kicks in for one "cycle" at a minimum... is that enough to heat the water? How long is a cycle?

I still can't believe that this is so difficult to implement... it takes a bunch of clever, technical people to figure it out and hack it together.

Daikin Altherma 3 and Solis Inverter

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