The grant needs to go!

Kramer · 01-06-2022 6:44pm #1

It's pretty obvious now that many of the more affordable BEVs are all heading towards the SEAI grant limit of €60k. ID4s, Ioniq5, EV6 etc. Manufacturers will maximise their profits, now that demand is so high & supply so constrained. There's an artificial ceiling now at the €55k mark, net, to avail of the grant.

It's obvious it'll go anyway, now that demand is so high, but for now, it's an artificial distortion & arguably, just being creamed off by the manufacturers.

If Tesla for example, increase the entry Model 3 by just €1k more, all non whites will increase by €6k. Who'd pay €6k for a colour? Kia have withdrawn the higher spec EV6 as it was at the grant limit. They'll drive up the entry spec now towards the grant limit. There'll be no competition at/near the €55k limit. Either spec will be reduced to bring it in under or they'll have to blow right by it with higher spec models hitting well into €65k+ territory.

It's time for it to go IMO.

the_amazing_raisin · 01-06-2022 8:09pm

Ah jaysis, where have you been? Been missing my dose of Kramer controversy for a while now 😂

I kind of agree, they need to start rethinking the grant. If the game is affordability then they should cut the price cap down so only the base spec models are covered

But where do you set the limit? There's an argument that cars over €25k are for rich people, but look for a family car around that mark and it's basically Dacia or bust

So then you're punishing people for having children, which the government wants to avoid (I'm theory at least)

IMO the grant should be dropped down to €35k gradually over the next 3 years and dropped completely by 2030

Ubbquittious · 01-06-2022 8:24pm

In this country any sort of a grant is just an excuse for suppliers to charge more. Grants only make sense if you're able to bypass the parasitic Irish middleman

the_amazing_raisin · 01-06-2022 8:37pm

I'm not sure it's an Irish thing or even an EV thing at this point

VW were recently saying they're aiming to become a luxury brand. So much for the people's car 🙄

Kia/Hyundai have been doing the same for a while as well

Seems all the brands are moving in the same direction, abandoning the budget segments in favour of higher profit markets

IMO the budget cars will be coming from China and India soon

PaulJoseph22 · 01-06-2022 10:59pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119146359#Comment_119146359

agreed, pretty much every car made in China is a budget brand.

ted1 · 01-06-2022 11:08pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119147111#Comment_119147111

VW, BMW, TESLA, Mercedes…

Redfox25 · 02-06-2022 9:00am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119147146#Comment_119147146

Budget brand for some perhaps...........................

slave1 · 02-06-2022 9:37am

Just follow the Norway model.

We are not at penetrative stage yet, incentives need to remain, remember today's grant aided new EVs are tomorrow used car market.

We need to keep incentives as long as possible

Wanderer78 · 02-06-2022 10:06am

incentives to change over must remain, its the only way to help the transition, but i wonder can other polices be also implemented, to try prevent gouging?

the_amazing_raisin · 02-06-2022 10:18am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119148036#Comment_119148036

Looking at Germany, they have the automaker pay part of the grant, I think it's a 50/50 split. And also there's a bonus grant for cars under €30k

Ireland doesn't have the same clout with the car sales industry, but maybe something could be done here along those lines

For example cars over ~€35k, the grant is partly funded by the dealership? The cynic in me says that the dealerships will just pas that cost along to the customer however

slave1 · 02-06-2022 12:15pm

Looking at prices here and UK it does not look like the grant is causing upset to any price discrepancies that were in existence before the EV grant

Wanderer78 · 02-06-2022 12:17pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119148625#Comment_119148625

supply constraints maybe?

eagerv · 02-06-2022 1:24pm

I don't know if the grant going would make cars any cheaper here. What we need are more open pricing such as on the Tesla configurator so you can clearly see the VAT and VRT we are being charged compared to other countries. If incentives for EVs finish on a worldwide basis then that is a different matter.

If the grant does go, it will be advantageous to any of us lucky enough to presently own an EV or two

whippet · 02-06-2022 1:45pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119148964#Comment_119148964

It's not just Tesla making it transparent - I've a quote from a BMW dealer on an i4 and it clearly lists the price for the car and each option with the individual VAT and VRT costs on each line.

eagerv · 02-06-2022 2:04pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119149073#Comment_119149073

Good to see BMW showing transparency as well👍️

unkel · 02-06-2022 2:25pm

Grant should have been gone years ago. It's a very poor efficiency spending of tax payers money. I reckon waiving the €120 motor tax to make an EV motor tax free, while upping all other motor tax by a bit, so at a net zero cost to the tax payer, would have more of an impact at changing people's buying behaviour. Irish people just love da chape tax!

brownej · 02-06-2022 2:28pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119149209#Comment_119149209

BMW will show you the total VAT and VRT as well as the percentage in the online configurator.

Once you finish configuring you press the summary button down the bottom. Then click on pricing and it tells you.

If you want to see huge tax numbers, config up a large engine ICE.

Wanderer78 · 02-06-2022 2:38pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119149358#Comment_119149358

you ll actually find humans love 'da chape tax'!

eagerv · 02-06-2022 2:39pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119149369#Comment_119149369

We are in a strange situation here in Ireland, where we have a high VAT and a fairly high VRT. Plus a grant of 5K, which reduces the price on lower priced EVs, totally understandable from the Governments pov. Only problem is that manufacturers aren't producing lower priced cars atm for various reasons.

A few years ago things looked quite rosy, not so much now..

liamog · 02-06-2022 3:10pm

I think you'd do more for EV adoption by providing an infrastructure grant of €5,000 per car sold that can be used by any business to install public DC charging instead of subsiding the single vehicle purchase. Can you imaging the network we'd have if €40,000,000 had been made available to operators this year instead of subsiding the 8000+ cars that were sold.

RoadRunner · 02-06-2022 4:05pm

After VW upped their prices recently their salesman are now recommending id4's to be purchased without heatpumps. Surely there's something wrong there.

eagerv · 02-06-2022 4:29pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119149936#Comment_119149936

Does the heatpump push the nett price above €55K?

Kramer · 02-06-2022 4:31pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119146209#Comment_119146209

IMO the grant should be dropped down to €35k gradually over the next 3 years and dropped completely by 2030

That's a better solution. Reduce the cap & taper it by value & over time.

I'd favour a €40k cap with the grant reducing to zero over say a max. of 4 years.

eagerv · 02-06-2022 4:43pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119150038#Comment_119150038

I'd favour a €40k cap with the grant reducing to zero over say a max. of 4 years.

Would there be many cars for sale atm to avail of the grant? ie €35K or less.

cruizer101 · 02-06-2022 4:44pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119149358#Comment_119149358

You want to increase tax on non-electric cars at a time when many are feeling the pinch of increased costs across the board and couldn't afford to change to a suitable electric vehicle?

Kramer · 02-06-2022 4:44pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119149936#Comment_119149936

Yeah, that's the result a grant with no taper/a hard cap. Manufacturers will drop spec to meet the figure on cars just over & bring up the price of cheaper cars to just under the limit. Kia just dropped the EV6 GT & the entry level Earth model will now creep up towards the limit, to maximise profit.

Who's benefiting here? The customer will get lower spec cars for the same price.

Dropping heatpumps to meet the grant limit is farcical. A Sustainable Energy grant which results in the dropping of more efficient heatpumps. It's an artificial & damaging distortion of the market the way it currently is IMO & much of the mainstream market is in this €50/55k area. Others will head there too, given the current demands/supply constraints.

€5k off was great back in the day of Ioniqs, Leafs & later, Konas & eNiros, ID.3s etc.

Now, it needs to either be reformed or scrapped. Given the anti car sentiment that pervades these days, including BEVs, I reckon sleepy eamo will scrap it & tell us we'll ultimately save money, by not buying a new car.

unkel · 02-06-2022 4:49pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119150092#Comment_119150092

Yes. Well on diesels anyway. What do you mean many people can't afford an electric car? I bought one for a bit over €2k last summer. It will have negative depreciation and the total cost of ownership is lower than a petrol / diesel banger that someone will give you for free.

kanuseeme · 02-06-2022 5:36pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119150117#Comment_119150117

It has 60 kms range, fine if you never drive it outside the M50.

the_amazing_raisin · 02-06-2022 9:24pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119150088#Comment_119150088

True enough, the current pricing structure for EVs is "charge whatever you want". Demand is constantly outstripping supply and frankly there's an argument that Ireland doesn't have enough clout to influence the car industry

I mean if Ireland turns around and says they'll only give the grant to city hatchbacks costing under €20k, it's not like VW or Hyundai or Tesla are going to suddenly roll one out for us

cruizer101 · 02-06-2022 9:26pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119150117#Comment_119150117

I did say suitable vehicle.

Cheapest leaf on dd now is 5700 and only has 8 bars, what's that about 100km range. That's just not enough for a lot of people.

I'm a fan of electric cars but now is not the time to be increasing tax on ice cars, the rise in fuel costs is enough of a cost increase to encourage those who can over to ev's.

the_amazing_raisin · 02-06-2022 9:29pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119150314#Comment_119150314

He just really likes that Fluence 🤣

In fairness, if you were commuting into Dublin every day from suburbia, a €2k Fluence would almost be cheaper than bus fares for a year

The grant needs to go!

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