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Karen Harrington jailed for life for the murder of Santina Cawley

135

Comments

  • Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 13,102 Mod ✭✭✭✭JupiterKid


    Justice has been served.

    RIP to little Santina, the victim of a truly barbaric and evil crime.

    I am against the death penalty - always have been - but a case as barbaric as this does make one wonder...

    We should have full life tariffs in Ireland as they do in the UK for particularly evil murders such as this one.

    Post edited by JupiterKid on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,033 ✭✭✭DoctorEdgeWild


    Then we have no disagreement as far as I can see, I started the discussion quoting Furze who I copied and pasted above.


    I think we can all agree that one person killed this child. That one person deserves punishment for this crime. They are responsible for this.

    I think we can all agree that following the conclusion of this murder investigation, there should be a further non-murder investigation into the parenting choices/circumstances that lead to this event.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 57,358 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    I think we all get this...issue is how it is being portrayed

    Harrington responsible for physically ending the poor child's life. Parents responsible for allowing their child to be alone in the company of this thing on that deadly night. Alone full well knowing the chaos and volatility and anger that the child was surrounded by.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,102 ✭✭✭monkeybutter




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,033 ✭✭✭DoctorEdgeWild




  • Posts: 25,611 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Well the murdering scumbag won't be able to murder any more kids for a few years. I agree with you though, I would prefer she was hung from a great height.

    Also you do know that other things happen outside of the court yeah? Like ya know how when something happens in your life there are also other things happening? Like even if someone dies, in the next few years tens, maybe hundreds of different things will happen in your life. This murdering piece of **** has been put away. That's a start to resolving things. The living circumstances of the parents of the victim and their other kids aren't going to be addressed by a fuckin murder trial, it'll be separate and mostly very private.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,713 ✭✭✭notAMember


    Addicts often have very little control over their actions. That's why they are so dangerous, and why people often object to injections centers or addict support services in their local area. The details of that case are horrific, the reports of the neighbours downstairs hearing the sliding door slam over and over again sent a chill down my spine. Of course the poor child was screaming and crying, with no sleep and being injured. Which only enraged the out of control woman further.

    It's an awful. Addiction isn't an easy problem to solve in society, once it gets established, which it sadly has in Cork at the moment.

    That's not an absolution of responsibility, she was absolutely guilty of that murder. But in addition to jailing her, perhaps we could consider measures to prevent others repeating this, such as focused action on addiction and drug supply.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,412 ✭✭✭Jequ0n


    Conveniently everyone else involved is firmly embracing the innocent victim card, and undoubtedly being rewarded, so I wouldn’t hold my breath that any other action will come out of this. But who knows.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 57,358 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    We have teams and teams of great people working tirelessly with drug addicts and the like.

    Working many many years now. It is not something that can ever be fully solved. People and societies are very complex.

    And, forgetting drugs and alcohol etc, sometimes people are downright bad and nasty.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 27,315 CMod ✭✭✭✭spurious


    Terrible case. It is very hard to read accounts of the night.

    That poor child. By all accounts, including the father's, this woman regardless of her drink and drug abuse had a history of looking after children well. Did they specify which drugs they were using that night? Must have been something heavy duty to cause such a frenzy of violence and then (if she is to believed) a complete memory loss about the event.

    Did the defence offer up any sort of explanation, other than her 'I didn't do it'?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 57,358 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    I don’t think a case of pure badness can be discounted.

    The woman seemed to meticulously torture the child to death.

    This does not seem like a moment of madness due to rage/hallucinations /drugs/alcohol that resulted in death. She was heard taunting the child.

    Was it pure badness/spite toward the father, due to their mad relationship?

    Mad and bad is what this monster is!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,392 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    As per the basic facts reported extensively and I repeat he was fully responsible for the child, his daughter. He was completely feckless in leaving her in the care of a woman whom he'd had a row with earlier and who he knew had been drinking.

    Obviously he didn't harm the child on this night but his drunken decisions contributed substantially to what transpired. No functional caring parent should behave like that.

    He can't just throw that off and then go giving a story to the tabloid media. If he was paid in any way for that, we should all be disgusted.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,419 ✭✭✭✭rob316


    Re-offending? What about pure punishment she deserves? 20 years of loss of freedom for beating a toddler to death? Sounds not near enough for me.

    There is no rehabilitation here, addiction issues or not she was well aware of what she was doing.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,038 ✭✭✭Gusser09


    Tell me this. Will you use her babby sitting services when she is out?

    An eye fir an eye with this type of crime as far as I'm concerned.


    At the very least she should be locked in a concrete box for the next 50 years.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,038 ✭✭✭Gusser09


    They didn't murder the child but they sure as hell were complicit in it. Absolute dregs of society the lot of them. The country is full of that type at the moment with kids being given no hope in life at all. Disgusts me that we the taxpayer pay for their scumbag behaveour.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,871 ✭✭✭Jump_In_Jack


    This is the saddest case I can remember in recent news, up there with the Anna Kriegel case.

    What I want to know, is how intoxicated was the murderer, what was she on, was it just alcohol or something else too, and had she been drinking all day long, and what quantity did she consume over what period.

    Based on the testimony of her character witnesses this was way out of character for her.

    I’ve heard of cases where people have killed their friends over silly arguments after drinking all day long, and can’t even remember it afterwards.

    It’s frightening if it was just alcohol that put her in that state, turned a normal girl into doing such a cruel and evil thing.

    if it was just alcohol and not anything else it should be broadcast as that because there are people out there that need to be warned about the dangers of their alcohol consumption. Bad things can happen from drinking all day long especially with small children around.

    It’s too late to apologise after killing someone. You can blame drink, but people have to wake up to their choices to consume so much alcohol that they have blackouts and lose complete control of their senses.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,033 ✭✭✭DoctorEdgeWild


    Not much here I'd disagree with but earlier you said you would 'hold him more responsible for the child's death'


    That's where we disagree as I don't.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,392 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    He was not responsible in terms of her actual death but played a considerable contributory part in the events that led to it. Ultimately he was the adult on the day responsible for his daughters welfare. And he failed her.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,392 ✭✭✭✭Furze99




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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,452 ✭✭✭ceadaoin.


    Some of the older articles in the months after she was arrested say she was pregnant at the time, and quite heavily going by the photo in this article


    This just makes this awful story even worse. Poor kids. Why is any mention of this scrubbed from the newer stories?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,904 ✭✭✭✭Galwayguy35


    So what is a life sentence, will she be out in less than 20 years?

    Some crimes deserve a whole life sentence and this is the punishment she should get.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,412 ✭✭✭Jequ0n


    35 years, looking like 50 at the time.

    One month between the killing and the photo. That’s a lucky child to be born to such responsible parents.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 984 ✭✭✭Still stihl waters 3


    Hopefully she'll die in prison before her child gets to know her



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 89,016 ✭✭✭✭JP Liz V1


    I remembering hearing or reading that Karen was pregnant, did she have that baby or lose it?

    Also that Santina's mother was homeless and lost custody of her kids

    Santina was let down by all the adults but Karen killed her no matter her state she killed an innocent child, life for life in a hell hole should be her punishment



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 57,358 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    Reading your post and seeing you refer to her by her first name reads all wrong. Almost like she’s just your ordinary woman. Just an observation.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 89,016 ✭✭✭✭JP Liz V1


    Karen the evil murdering scum bag killer

    I do not think I could put up here what I really would call her



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 57,358 ✭✭✭✭walshb




  • Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 7,710 Mod ✭✭✭✭HildaOgdenx


    100% agree about him being paid.

    He let his poor defenceless child down so badly. It's beyond heartbreaking. And as for that vile creature who killed her, words fail me.

    His two year old child should have been at home safe in her own bed. Not being dragged around with adults drinking, taking drugs and fighting at all hours of the morning. I'm sure his errand into the city could have waited quite easily too. I doubt he ever dreamt this would be the outcome, of course.

    Poor little Santina. May the gentle innocent child rest in peace.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,214 ✭✭✭✭freshpopcorn


    Alcohol and drugs cause lots of problems in out society and kids grow up in terrible environments because of it.

    In previous generations some kids may have being brought to the pub of an afternoon and that was it. Was it ideal not really but it was a different era.

    However now some parents have drinks every evening (which is fine). However some parents don't know when to stop and the care of their children are put at risk.

    I've known of Communion parties going on until the early hours of the morning and the Gardaí needing to be called.

    I do think authorities need to be able to do more to support children and families when alcohol or dugs is an issue.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 89,016 ✭✭✭✭JP Liz V1


    Could he be charged with neglect abuse etc., prison and a high fine



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,713 ✭✭✭notAMember


    How so?

    Feel free to disagree, but you might want to put across a point.

    you think addicts and those off their faces on booze are beautiful souls who can do no wrong?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,391 ✭✭✭olestoepoke


    Poor child was let down by all the adults in her life. Hopefully that animal gets a hard long time in prison. The parents were irresponsible and partly to blame. Who in their right mind leaves a two year old alone with anyone off their head on drink or whatever else? Brings to mind the old saying, you need a licence to own a dog yet almost anyone can have a child.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 57,358 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    This stinks of the whole “sh1t happens” attitude.

    and this world we live in is not some perfect world (like your post wants to try portray). Hence why people need to be careful and responsible.

    Whilst that thing ended the poor child’s life, her parent left her alone with that thing, who was clearly agitated, angry, under the influence and pretty much a ticking time bomb. The night in question full of chaos.

    this take that “I did nothing wrong. I left her with her. Nothing to do with me,” stinks.

    that poor child would have probably been safer and stood a better chance had she been left alone with a pit bull.

    And, you can bet (and rightly so) had it been a case like leaving a child alone with a dog, the parents would be condemned if something terrible happened. So the father absolutely should shoulder responsibility for his child’s welfare.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,232 ✭✭✭TooTired123


    From the very instant that day that all of the adults surrounding Santina started drinking and taking drugs, quite early in the afternoon, fighting, verbally assaulting one another, moving from place to place, shouting, screaming, she was in the midst of an absolutely hellish experience for a child. Totally unacceptable, unforgivable, animalistic environment to force on an innocent child.

    Frightening, degrading, toxic, dangerous. Right up to the point she was abandoned by her parent to be tortured and beaten to death in an act of utter savagery by a monster, while he wandered around the city on some kind of a wild goose chase.

    Tell me, how much of this is “rumour gossip speculation and innuendo”? Please point out where I have got this story wrong?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,713 ✭✭✭notAMember



    Your point really isn’t clear, but I hope I am misinterpreting and you are not bringing a pro-drug argument in here? “plenty of people” do the same. What the heck, Who? … You?

    This little girl, a toddler , was beaten to death over a fairly prolonged period by someone who claims to not even remember doing it.

    The whole lot of them were drunk, loaded, off their face, whatever you want to call it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 57,358 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    Spot on. A beautiful defenceless child in the middle of out and out toe rags. One of them committing a sustained vicious and depraved assault causing death. Vile beyond belief.

    I never mentioned how utterly horrific it must have been for the gardai and medics that night, to see such a helpless wee child destroyed…



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 57,358 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    Another thing I always think when I see these horrific cases is that human beings actually work to get these people off. How could any human being stand up and defend and fight for acquittal here?

    is there some law that says a defender must represent these people?

    if I was a defender/lawyer and after reading the absolute depravity here, as well as it being pretty much clear cut that this thing did this, I’d go to prison before attempting to defend her.

    what kind of person/mindset says “I’ll take this case?”



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,412 ✭✭✭Jequ0n


    I guess a certain level of emotional detachment is required for this line of work, as well as many others (emergency services, medical etc).

    It’s an interesting question though because I can never understand why and how people get so emotionally invested in cases which do not affect them.



  • Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Regional East Moderators, Regional North West Moderators Posts: 12,523 Mod ✭✭✭✭miamee


    It is the very basics of the justice system that everyone is entitled to a defence, to make their case in court and to be judged by their peers. I wouldn't be able for it either mind you but I guess people who read/study law believe wholeheartedly in the justice system and it's function and on that basis will take the very bad with the good.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 57,358 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    Exactly what I was thinking. To do what these people do there has to be some emotional detachment. And in some cases, a kind of callousness....?

    I know for a fact I could not do it, no matter what.

    Seriously, I'd do jail time, get fired before I would utter one single sentence in defense of someone who could do that to a child.

    Yet, she had a defender.........someone actually decided to take her on to defend her.

    You never hear, no matter how despicable a person/crime "the accused has nobody wo will take his/her case."



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 812 ✭✭✭CreadanLady


    I wonder if an accused could not get anyone to represent them what would happen?

    Would the judge compel or order a solicitor/barrister to represent the accused?

    Or would the case have to be dismissed because without representation the accused couldn't reasonably get a fair trial, especially in a case where the accused doesnt have the capacity to represent themselves as would be the case with addicts, or people with substance issues.

    The MFV Creadan Lady is a mussel dredger from Dunmore East.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,102 ✭✭✭monkeybutter


    would you have the capacity to represent yourself?🤣



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,606 ✭✭✭✭ArmaniJeanss


    I'm not even sure a barrister can refuse. I think we have a list system and if you are 'next person up' then it's your sworn duty to represent the person to the best of your ability. The same can apply in reverse - if the list system made you the prosecution barrister then you have to represent the state's case even if you have nagging doubts about the defendant's guilt.

    As a general point (and not applying to this case specifically) there have been many cases worldwide which looked like 'guilt beyond doubt, vile criminal, who would defend them' at an initial glance, and only afterwards (sometimes decades afterwards) do we realise the defendant was innocent. So it's fundamentally good that every defendant has someone on their side looking for holes in the case.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,412 ✭✭✭Jequ0n


    I wouldn’t call it callousness. At the end of the day it is just another case, as sad as this might sound.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,102 ✭✭✭monkeybutter


    I don't think that is how it works

    you can choose your own and pay or if you can't the judge will assign you a solicitor from the panel (you may get some choice there if there is availability), the barrister just works on your behalf when it gets to court and the solicitor will arrange that

    not all solictors or barristers will work on free legal aid etc ( the best ones)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,177 ✭✭✭Fandymo


    Now?? Alcoholics have been around since alcohol was first imbibed.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,168 ✭✭✭Ger Roe


    I am not an expert, but I think if you are entitled to free legal aid, a solicitor can be appointed for you.

    I have often sat in to observe cases in court, where a defendant for drink/drug offences would turn up without a clue or a legal rep - the judge would often take a look around the court room, while the solicitors waiting for their own cases to be called would either suddenly look very busy... or avoid eye contact, until the judge would call one by name and ask them to take on the case - then adjourning for 15 mins to allow for the newly appointed solicitor to consult with their new client.

    Judges do not like hearing cases where someone without a clue has no financial means of defending themselves. Solicitors sometimes have no option when asked to help out by the judge - they have to give and take to maintain their working relationship with the court system.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,102 ✭✭✭monkeybutter


    there is a whole system (money making racket) in place for this, you they aren't just plucking people out a crowd in the room on the day

    you will have pre trial process for this, along with getting bail etc before you go to court proper

    the only time they wont assign for something very low like a speeding fine etc or where they think you are taking the piss and can afford one yourself



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,038 ✭✭✭Gusser09


    The more you think about it a realize that we the taxpayer fund this type of living and scumbaging it really sickens you. And now a child ends up dead indirectly due to these scumbags getting their free money and houses etc. That's how they afford to live like this. Somethings got to give.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 296 ✭✭Ham_Sandwich


    the amount of people doing jdugements onto the parents is ridiculous, as if no one goes out for a few on a nice day on the weekend or god forbid none of yous have gone on a session before in your life



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