Suspect rental price is higher than it legally should be.

NeptunesMoon · 06-05-2022 11:09am #1

I'm on the hunt for a new place and am interested in one place. Have spoken to LL and they said the last tenants moved out a year ago and they did some work on the house since, rewiring some plumbing etc. Nothing extensive such as increasing floor space etc. I'm sure the rent they are asking for is far more than what they are legally allowed increase it by. From what I know, the property would need to have been vacant for 2 years, or have had extensive refurbishment done on it. I don't think either is the case.

The thing is, the market is so bad right now, they've probably loads of demand at the price they've listed it for and I don't want to jeopardise my chances of actually securing it by trying to barter as they'll probably get the asking price easy.

If I end up getting the property, is there anything that can be done once I'm in, to reduce the price back to what it should be?

What would be considered "extensive" if floor space wasn't increased, or is floor space being increased a must in order for the price to be increased legally?

Cheers!

Cuddlesworth · 06-05-2022 11:15am

You can log a case with the RTB after renting, assuming the last tenants were actually registered and the rent figure given was correct. But its absolutely going to sour the relationship between yourself and the landlord.

SteM · 06-05-2022 11:21am

Have you spoken to the previous tenant? How are you so sure that the rent was raised above the allowed amount?

Ginger83 · 06-05-2022 11:21am

How are you sure?

NeptunesMoon · 06-05-2022 11:24am

I'm not 100% sure, but I'm 99% sure they weren't charging that price in that area 2 years ago assuming the previous tenant was there for at least a year . They were probably there for more going by how the LL described the situation, most of the refurb they have done is fixing the place up after previous tenants left it in a terrible state.

Is it possible to find out from RTB what the previous rent paid was for the address before agreeing to take it?

MakersMark · 06-05-2022 1:40pm

Why don't you look for a cheaper place?

Dav010 · 06-05-2022 2:02pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119022809#Comment_119022809

So you are telling us you don’t know what the previous tenants were paying, but you are 99% sure they LL is charging too much. Can you see the issue with this?

Ray Palmer · 06-05-2022 3:02pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058244681/suspect-rental-price-is-higher-than-it-legally-should-be

Why do you want a relationship with somebody you distrust? Do you also think you are good at hiding this distrust?

I have refused tenants just on the vibe they give off and it is not hard to sense when somebody is angry at the rental price and trying to tease out some way it would cheaper or they get something extra. I doubt you hid yourself without being noticed as someway "off"

covidcustomer · 06-05-2022 3:40pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058244681/suspect-rental-price-is-higher-than-it-legally-should-be

Sorry, I can't post links, on the RTB website under New Tenancy":

Setting the rent at the commencement of a new tenancy within a Rent Pressure Zone.

In the case of a new tenancy in a Rent Pressure Zone, unless the property is exempt from the RPZ rental restrictions, a landlord is required to furnish the tenant, in writing, with the following information at the commencement of the tenancy:

The amount of rent that was last set under a tenancy for the dwelling,
The date the rent was last set under a tenancy for the dwelling, and
A statement as to how the rent set under the tenancy of the dwelling has been calculated having regard to the Rent Pressure Zone calculator.

Good luck!

kippy · 06-05-2022 5:18pm

Landlord spends significant funds sorting house after previous tenants leave it in a state, then gets accused without foundation of breaking the law, then potentially ends up dealing with a seriously awkward Tennant who is not happy with terms that they would have agreed to.

Who would be a landlord as right.

meijin · 06-05-2022 6:18pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119024251#Comment_119024251

Yes, but some LL's won't.

Another option is to just pay it, and find out later from the previous tenant, or request the info from the landlord when you have part 4, or towards the end of tenancy, and dispute through RTB if needed.

Homer · 06-05-2022 6:22pm

How do you increase the floor space of an apartment? Hypothetical question! Any wonder landlords are leaving the market in droves.

handlemaster · 06-05-2022 7:32pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058244681/suspect-rental-price-is-higher-than-it-legally-should-be

Nice start to the tenant landlord relationship. In the door looking for rent reduction

howiya · 07-05-2022 12:50am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119025091#Comment_119025091

I think it's the way the prospective tenant is going about it that is the problem rather than looking for a reduction.

In a normal market the rent would settle at what is agreed between the landlord and tenant.

When I last looked for a rental (late 2017), place was advertised at X per month and we said we were interested but at Y per month. Landlord suggested another value somewhere between X and Y, let's say Z per month even though its not between X and Y in the alphabet, and a deal was done at Z per month.

Obviously the market is quite different now and landlords don't need to reduce the rent they expect to receive. The point I'm trying to make though is discussing price isn't necessarily a bad start to a relationship. It's the approach suggested in this instance that will lead to a toxic relationship between landlord and tenant.

NeptunesMoon · 07-05-2022 8:57am

I don't want to create a landlord vs tenant divide in this thread, but I feel a lot of you may be responding from an ivory tower position and don't realise just how bad it is trying to find somewhere at the moment. I've had daft alerts set up since last year. At first my criteria was a bit beyond the price of my current place which the lease started on 2 years ago, having seen how few properties were going up, I extended the distance and price criteria and have been seeing pretty much all properties being listed now and it's still very few and any suitable ones, you'd be lucky to even get a response from 10% of applications you send. Having spoken to LL's and EA's, I've been told the same properties that may have received 5-10 enquiries in the whole term of being listed a year or two years ago, are now receiving over 100 in the first hours of being listed. The ones that are any way affordable are receiving about 300 enquiries in the first day.

So negotiating on the price is not possible, they have droves up people lined up willing to pay the asking price so why would they go with somebody who is asking for it for less?

Those who are asking how I'm sure. As I said, I'm 99% sure, not 100%, but the previous tenants were there for over 7 years, another neighbour right across from this place who moved in 2 years ago is paying 28% less than what is being asked for this place and I think their place is slightly bigger too. There's no way it would have gone for anywhere near what it is listed for now 5+ years ago.

I know it may sour things, but I don't think having to shut up and accept it in fear of souring the LL/tenant relationship, or in fear of losing the opportunity to finally get a home, while the LL takes advantage of people in crisis and desperation, to maximise their profits, is how things should be.

So I'm asking, what is considered "extensive renovation"? Is extending floor space a MUST for renovations to be considered "extensive"? I'm assuming giving the place a lick of paint or replacing carpet or putting in a new boiler and the likes wouldn't be considered extensive, but in the absence of floor space being extended, are there any other works that would qualify a property for being able to increase rent before the 2 year period of vacancy?

cheers!

Dav010 · 07-05-2022 9:39am

How can you possibly be 99% sure without knowing the most important information, what the previous tenant was actually paying? This isn’t a tenant/LL divide, it is a consideration of whether your statements are credible.

If the LL has a lot of applicants, the chances of you getting the property may be small, particularly if you give off the vibe you are displaying here. Provided he doesn’t you give you a term lease, he can end it before you get Part 4 rights once you start your crusade.

I doubt there is anyone here who isn’t aware of the difficulties currently for both tenants and LLs, but this is not the way to go about getting a property and will undoubtedly end up with you back looking for a new place to live once you become antagonistic.

NeptunesMoon · 07-05-2022 9:55am

Ok, well replace 99% sure, with me having 99% confidence if I was to place a bet that it's more than the legal increase allowed.

To be 28% higher than a bigger property less than 20 meters from this one, which was rented just 2 years ago, when this property's previous tenants had been there for over 7 years. To be on par with what first time rentals are going for in the same area for the same size/condition/location and to still be pretty pricey for what it is, but tenants being so desperate right now will pay it anyway.

So for the sake of discussion, without knowing 100%, if we can just hypothesise on the assumption it IS higher, rather than having a discussion on certainty.

Thanks for your input anyway, by a term lease, do you mean a specific term must be stated on the least (Typically 1 year I guess?).

I know this isn't the way to go about getting a property which is why I'm posting and which is why I'm not going to mention anything about it until I have rights. I may not even ever bring it up as not to disrupt the relationship, but I would still like to be aware of the law and rights surrounding the question.

cheers

Dav010 · 07-05-2022 10:03am

Yes, if there isn’t a term like 1 yr on the lease, he can end the tenancy at any time in the first 6 months as you will not have part 4 rights.

[Deleted User] · 07-05-2022 10:59am

In you post above you say you were 2 years into your lease. In the other thread you have going, you say you’re there 6 years and have been given 224 days notice.

Which is it?

connected1 · 07-05-2022 11:17am

Hi OP, you can find the info here

https://www.rtb.ie/during-a-tenancy/rent-review-in-a-rent-pressure-zone-rpz/exemptions-to-the-rent-pressure-zone-rental-cap

Basically there has to be a substantial increase in BER, or in floor space, or a combination of 3 smaller improvements.

Hope that helps

chiefwiggum · 07-05-2022 11:24am

So simply put, you found a place you would like to live in but want to pay what you want and not what the landlord wants? Yeah, good luck with that!

NeptunesMoon · 07-05-2022 11:30am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119027162#Comment_119027162

You've misread both posts.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119027232#Comment_119027232

Thanks a lot, I'll have a read of that!

Ginger83 · 07-05-2022 11:53am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119026941#Comment_119026941

Rightly or wrongly there's nothing stopping the landlord from producing paperwork claiming that alot more work was done if the landlord knew the right people. It could be quite difficult to prove otherwise.

Having said that there is nothing stopping you from going for it at the current rent price, waiting 6 months to secure part 4 rights and then approaching the subject with landlord or EA. It would not go down well though and you could be seen as a problem tenant. You might like the place but your actions might sway the landlord to sell up resulting in you having to search again for a home.

NeptunesMoon · 11-05-2022 8:25am

cheers for the reply. So I've ended up moving into this place now and have paid the advertised rent and deposit of one month of that too. I've had a read of exemption list above and I don't think they've done enough to qualify the increase in rent.

In the case of me approaching this after securing part 4 rights, what would happen then, would I be entitled to a refund on the rent paid based off what the rent should be? Say if I didn't approach it and then after 2 years I was given notice of eviction and decided to approach it then, would I then be entitled to the overpaid amount back for those 2 years I've been overpaying?

Is there any way to check the BER rating history of the house?

Also, is there any way RTB or HAP would ever investigate something like this without a tip off from the tenant? Like do they have any systems where suspicious rent increases would be flagged on their system for investigation if for example the last registered tenant for an address was 14 months ago and paying €1,000 and then 14 months later, the newly registered tenant is paying €2,000, that it would flag that landlord for investigation? I'm just thinking is there a way to get this looked into, without it being obvious that it's the tenant behind it, as not to cause any friction and resentment.

LL is nice, but at the current rental price and having looked at what the house sold for, it would cover the cost of the purchase price in less than 6 years and they've already been rneting it out for years since they bought it, along with other properties they own, so I'd much rather that money in my pocket than contributing to their fortune, as well as inflating the price for other rentals and contributing to the housing crises.

Dav010 · 11-05-2022 8:31am

Op. Have you spoken to the previous tenant and asked what they were paying? Without that information, you have no case to bring to the RTB.

You are paying for a service, not paying their mortgage. To suggest you are is akin to saying your employer is paying your rent just because you use your wage to pay for the roof over your head.

manonboard · 11-05-2022 8:38am

OP, im pretty against your mentality of how you seem to want to go about all this, and im a fellow a tenant. You sound like you will be a difficult tenant.

Regardless of my personal feelings about it, I think with either of your strategies of causing difficulty down the line when you have more power/rights, I think your strategy will fail. At the end of the day, the landlord made 'extensive renovations' to the place. It will come down to a decision on what definition extensive is. The floor space was not increased, but a increase in BER OR a combination of 3 smaller improvements is so easy for them to claim. New boiler? new rewiring? Newly redecorated? Carpet, painting, some furniture etc. It sounds to me like there was an upgrade and i think there in lies your problem. It was not just a lick of paint if new wiring, new boiler and several decorative changes were put in. I think you would have a very hard time proving otherwise because the LL can claim all sorts of upgrades and you have next to no evidence to claim other wise.

TheChizler · 11-05-2022 8:42am

Anecdotal, but anyone I've asked who has moved out of rental accommodation in the last couple of years had told me it was put back on the market far in excess of that they were paying. My own apartment went from €850 to €1300 overnight as the new tenant told me when I picked up some post, well in excess of what was allowed. Plenty people on this forum encourage this practice. It's not an unreasonable suspicion that this has happened.

If the government was serious about RPZs they should enable and direct the RTB to compare rents year to year.

squigglestrebor · 11-05-2022 8:44am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119044617#Comment_119044617

Dont call them people ,Landlords on this forum encourage it.

maestroamado · 11-05-2022 8:47am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058244681/suspect-rental-price-is-higher-than-it-legally-should-be

Don't wast your time... its a sneaky way of doing business and no-one will listen to that rubbish...

NeptunesMoon · 11-05-2022 8:49am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119044582#Comment_119044582

I don't need to speak to the previous tenant. The LL is required to furnish this information if requested as quoted from the RTB website in a post above. So I'm asking in the case of an investigation proving the rent is higher than it should be, would I receive a refund on the amount overpaid for what it legally should have been restricted to, along with the other queries in my post above.

I didn't say I was paying their mortgage. I said I'd rather I have that money than contributing to their fortune. I'm not looking to enter a discussion on how the "service" is a basic need and not one that should have been allowed to be exploited for profit the way it has been, I'm just looking for information relating to my questions above, cheers.

Dav010 · 11-05-2022 8:49am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119044617#Comment_119044617

Difference between suspicion and 99% certainty is evidence of wrongdoing.

Suspect rental price is higher than it legally should be.

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