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House sharing rights

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  • 07-04-2022 5:01pm
    #1
    Shelflife
    Registered Users Posts: 3,073 ✭✭✭


    My daughter is sharing a house in Dublin. She moved in last August. She found the house through one of the usual sites daft/room for rent and moved in.

    She payed the deposit to the existing tenant and pays her rent to the existing tenant also who forwards the rent on to the landlord whom my daughter has never met. There is nothing in writing just a verbal agreement.

    Existing tenant is there 3 years.

    Landlord says a family member is moving back and he wants the house back, has given them 28 days notice.

    Original tenant is somehow related to the landlord and doesnt want to cause any trouble and is willing to move out.

    What rights does my daughter have in this instance ?



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    #2
    Cuddlesworth
    Registered Users Posts: 13,980 ✭✭✭✭Cuddlesworth


    From the details in your comment, it seems your daughter was subletting and is a licensee. Which means she has little to no rights.

    She is aware there is a landlord to the existing tenant, but all dealings and payments have been with that tenant and not the landlord themselves.

    If she had anything concrete that the landlord was aware of her tenancy and interacted in some way directly with her, accepting her tenancy, then she might have a case to having actual rights in this situation.



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    #3
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    Really it's all going to hinge on the nature of the arrangement. Even if there's no written agreement, tenants do acquire statutory rights after a certain amount of time.

    If someone is renting a room in a house where the landlord lives, they're a licensee and basically have no rights. This extends to circumstances where the landlord does not live in the house, but a spouse, child or parent does.

    However, if the original tenant is not any of these things, and your daughter now has been there more than 6 months, she is entitled to 90 days notice. The 90 days starts the day after a formal, valid notice of termination has been provided.

    My understanding is that the fact that she has never met the landlord is irrelevant.

    She needs to contact threshold, explain her specific circumstances and find out exactly what her rights are.



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    #4
    Shelflife
    Registered Users Posts: 3,073 ✭✭✭Shelflife


    Cheers, shes getting advice tomorrow, the original tenant is only loosely related to the landlord but enough that they don't want to make a fuss. My daughter replaced a girl who had moved out and paid the rent to the OT out of convenience more than anything else.



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    #5
    Del2005
    Registered Users Posts: 18,871 ✭✭✭✭Del2005


    Since the original tenancy is in Part 4 your daughter can request to be added to the lease and the landlord can't refuse, the landlord would be required to give her the notice to vacate in accordance with the RTB guidelines for a 3 year tenancy.



    (7) A person who is lawfully in occupation of the dwelling concerned as a licensee of the tenant or the multiple tenants, as the case may be, during the subsistence of a Part 4 tenancy may request the landlord of the dwelling to allow him or her to become a tenant of the dwelling.


    https://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2004/act/27/section/50/enacted/en/html#:~:text=(7)%20A%20person%20who%20is,a%20tenant%20of%20the%20dwelling.




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    #6
    Mrs OBumble
    Registered Users Posts: 25,669 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    The thing about rights is that they come with responsibilities.

    Your daughter can ask to be added to the lease, and then gain the rights as above.

    But if the existing tenant is happy to move out in 28 days and does so, then your daughter could find that she is alone in the house (ie paying the full electricity etc) and liable to pay the full rent (ie not just her room) for the remainder of the notice period.

    It could be far more productive for her to focus on looking for a room in a new house.



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    #7
    Claw Hammer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,160 ✭✭✭Claw Hammer


    Your daughter can ask to become a tenant as she has resided there as a licensee of the existing tenant. She can then acquire new tenants to replace those who move out. At the moment in Dublin she should have no problem finding long or short term tenants. She can challenge the landlords Notice of Termination and stay in the property until the dispute process is exhausted.

    Alternatively your daughter could get her deposit back and find new accommodation.



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    #8
    DubCount
    Registered Users Posts: 1,065 ✭✭✭DubCount


    In practical terms, even if your daughter managed to get herself included as a tenant in stead of a licensee, it will only be a temporary solution, as the landlord is still going to evict her for a family member to move in. The only benefit will be a little extra time, and potentially the headache of trying to get replacement tenants etc. that will only last a few weeks/months.

    I would concentrate on finding alternative accommodation, and getting a good reference and deposit refunded etc.



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    #9
    Fian
    Registered Users Posts: 2,187 ✭✭✭Fian


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118896410#Comment_118896410

    She can request, and by doing so she will be acknowledging that she is not a tenant, but the landlord can refuse the request.

    A landlord can't unreasonably refuse, but there is a valid reason here why the landlord would not accede to the request.



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    #10
    Del2005
    Registered Users Posts: 18,871 ✭✭✭✭Del2005



    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118898963#Comment_118898963

    It'd be an interesting case to take the to RTB. The statute is clear that's there's no such thing as a licencee once there's a Part 4 tenancy in place. So the landlord can refuse but the OP's daughter is entitled to be on the lease and the lease needs to be cancelled by giving the correct statutory times and wording neither of which the landlord is doing. The OP's daughter would have a good chance of getting a nice payout for an illegal eviction, the RTB is pro tenant and the landlord is trying to evict tenants illegally.



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    #11
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,001 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    I too would be concerned that if the original tenants lease agreement has a “joined and severely liable” clause, by gaining tenant rights the op’s daughter then becomes responsible for payment of the full rent if the other tenant moves out.

    Op, if your daughter can afford to pay the full rental price of the property, then it might be worth trying to delay the ending of the tenancy, but in reality, the LL is just going to issue a new, valid notice.



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    #12
    Shelflife
    Registered Users Posts: 3,073 ✭✭✭Shelflife


    Cheers all,

    Thankfully the course that she was doing has all but finished. The plan was to find a job in Dublin and keep the house for next year as well.

    The original tenant has basically rolled over so my daughter will leave at the end of the month, regroup and try and find a new house for next year.

    Thanks for your help.



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    #13
    Cuddlesworth
    Registered Users Posts: 13,980 ✭✭✭✭Cuddlesworth


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118900096#Comment_118900096

    The statute is clear that the person is a licensee until the landlord accepts the tenancy.

    "I am not their landlord, my tenant sublet to them" is a reasonable reason to decline the tenancy.

    Also worth noting, the RTB has no power over licensees. So regardless, no RTB case until landlord accepts the tenancy. Which means court cases etc.



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