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Off Topic Chat. (MOD NOTE post# 3949 and post#5279)

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  • Registered Users Posts: 14,949 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    On somthing firearms related. looks like the NRA will still be around a while longer and not dissolved.

    https://trendingpolitics.com/hip-hip-hooray-for-the-nra-ethom/

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • Registered Users Posts: 550 ✭✭✭JP22


    Well we are neutral, so what did you expect?

    With the greatest respect, that's a bucket load of horse shite.

    We are Military-Non Aligned; there is a huge difference between both.


    ............. Don't go bringing WW2 into this, ...............

    Why?, did WW2 not happen, did we NOT imprison German Air Crews and returned British Air Crews?

    This is favouring one side over another, basically a concession.


    ............. Don't go bringing WW2 into this, just because we gave slight concessions to the allies that doesn't mean anything...........

    SLIGHT Concessions you say.

    Consession slight or otherwise which favours one side over another means you are taking sides, it means your are NOT neutral.



  • Registered Users Posts: 549 ✭✭✭Munsterlad102


    Perhaps he is, but there’s no way of knowing for sure, short of committing military espionage. I’d certainly expect Northern Ireland to be a target in a hypothetical war, but I doubt anyone would nuke a neutral country and gain nothing more than one enemy. I haven’t ready any declassified soviet documents so I’ll take your word for it. However I’d say there’s a decent chance the Russians have similar plans and targets.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,949 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    IF,or IF it ever comes to the point that this slow-boiling preamble to WW4 goes hot.I very much doubt that either the Russians or NATO will be too overly bothered about our protestations of being neutral and us becoming enemies if they need or want our facilities here or want to deny the other side their use.

    Being neutral doesn't grauntee you won't be invaded either. Ask Belgium ,Denmark, Holland and Luxembourg about that in both world wars,and Switzerland who had a viable army, national defence plan, and an airforce that took on both German and Allied aircraft in its neutral airspace, and even got bombed once "by mistake" by the USAF , who ended up paying the Swiss govt recompense as did the 3rd Reich for a similar incident in Ireland, and interred both Axis and Allied aircrews until wars end, and was considered by Adolf as too much of a tough nut to crack in time and materials"

    Even Francos "Neutral" Spain remember sent three "Blue" divisions to fight with the Nazis on the Eastern front against Communism. As even we had a bunch of Blueshirts under Eoin O Duffy to fight in the Spanish civil war. So neutrality can be a very flexible concept depending on who is saying such and it doesn't ensure anything in safety or security either.

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,385 ✭✭✭Rosahane




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  • Registered Users Posts: 550 ✭✭✭JP22


    Whatever the outcome of the current situation, from here on things will change big time.

    Since the invasion happened – Germany has upped their defence budget to 2% that’s from €47bil in 2021 to €100bil for 2022. Watch this space, other countries will follow, they will basically have no choice.

    Putin was complaining about Nato at its door, the Nordic countries of Denmark, Finland, Iceland, Norway, and Sweden are totally neutral and not Nato members. What’s the betting one or more of them will shortly seek Nato membership.



  • Registered Users Posts: 747 ✭✭✭tonysopprano


    Think you will find that Denmark, Iceland and Norway are all members of NATO

    If you can do the job, do it. If you can't do the job, just teach it. If you really suck at it, just become a union executive or politician.



  • Registered Users Posts: 550 ✭✭✭JP22


    I err, damn new-fangled keyboard’s, ……….😣

    You’s know what I mean, things can only get worse for Putin from here forward.



  • Registered Users Posts: 280 ✭✭Mississippi.


    There'll be no more Baikal's for us going forward anyway.


    Strong reliable workhorses they are.



  • Registered Users Posts: 38,989 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    Some Ukrainian sniper north of Kiev is making a name for himself. Not world records but there is a chance the sniper was using an SVD, which would making it the longest confirmed kill with both the Russian made Dragunov and the 7.62x54mmR.

    or maybe is was a US/NATO .50 Cal Barrett



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  • Registered Users Posts: 550 ✭✭✭JP22


    I just hear on radio that a truck has crashed into the Russian Embassy gates in Dublin.  😁



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,596 ✭✭✭Feisar


    First they came for the socialists...



  • Registered Users Posts: 550 ✭✭✭JP22


    The "Hand of God" Joe D said on radio. 😇



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,453 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    Can someone help me understand something.

    Oil back in 2011 or 2012, for a short while, hit a high of $147 per barrel. At the pump it went to €1.669 per litre.

    I realise between inflation and other factors a small rise would come, but after the lockdowns ended, rapid infation, the increased demand, and most recently the instability in world supplies due to the invasion of Ukraine the price of a barrel of oil has hit $118 per barrel yet the price at the pumps has gone over €2 per litre.

    This is where I'm confused.

    The price of a barrel of oil is $30 cheaper than 10 years ago yet the price of a litre is €0.40c more. Is this solely due to the constant increases in carbon tax introduced by Ryan along with the hike in excise duty?

    A recent article in the Times and Journal suggests some stations are price gouging given the difference in pricing between stations with it being up to €0.10c a litre cheaper in neighbouring Counties.

    Or, tin foil hat time, is this an attempt (given current situation in the world) to push those on the fence towards EVs and away from Petrol/Diesel motors given the commitment of the Government to end sales of such cars by 2030 and a total ban of them on the roads by 2040?

    I ask because I notice the VRT or VAT (cannot remember which) has been increased for EVs and grants/subsidies (for buying them) have ended. In other words the Government are going to slowly start introducing taxes and charges that never applied to EVs to try offset the Billions in lost revenue that will come from eliminating Petrol/Diesel motors.

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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 1,422 Mod ✭✭✭✭otmmyboy2


    A nice breakdown of what the cost of fuel at the pump breaks down to(percentage wise anyway as the figures are a bit outdated for the current rise):

    https://www.theaa.ie/aa/motoring-advice/petrol-prices.aspx


    The gov said a while ago that they were going to reduce/eliminate EV grants because they were losing revenue on fuel, and similarly they are pushing for that whole 2030 no fossil fuel cars crap, so I wouldn't call it tin foil hat at all.

    Never leave a good crisis go to waste and all that, particularly if you can:

    1 - Say it is for people's own good(carbon tax, etc),

    2 - Make revenue from it(rather than offering incentives instead add penalties or disincentives),

    3 - Blame it on something else if it does go belly up(EU mandates, Russia, Covid, etc).

    Never forget, the end goal is zero firearms of any type.

    S.I. No. 187/1972 - Firearms (Temporary Custody) Order - Firearms seized

    S.I. No. 21/2008 - Firearms (Restricted Firearms and Ammunition) Order 2008 - Firearm types restricted

    Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2009 - Firearms banned & grandfathered

    S.I. No. 420/2019 - Magazine ban, ammo storage & transport restricted

    Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2023 - 2023 Firearm Ban (retroactive to 8 years prior)



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,453 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    Well going on that list and todays' prices it seems the Gov. are taking nearly €1.10) from every litre of fuel. Meaning €0.90c is going to the mining company, refinery, shipping, storage, and stations. So they do all that work for a share of 90 cent and the Government take a Euro & 10 cent.

    Reading an article some months back about the EVs and they said if the 2040 plan goes ahead the Government will begin loosing some of the €13.7 BILLION per annum in revenue from car sales/fuel, etc. from now until the total elimination of said cars and the industries related to them by 2040 meaning the whole of the €13.7 BILLION will have to come from elsewhere.

    So if EVs are unaffordable to most now (with grants, and free road tax, etc.) what are they going to cost in 10 to 15 years time when that near €14 BILLION is "redistributed" across other taxes to make up the shortfall? Even allowing for the improvement in technology and drop in prices of EVs over the same time period.

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    If you see a problem post use the report post function. Click on the three dots on the post, select "FLAG" & let a Moderator deal with it.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 14,949 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    Oil back in 2011 or 2012, for a short while, hit a high of $147 per barrel. At the pump it went to €1.669 per litre.

    Caused mostly by market speculation rather than any particular crisis and John Kerry going on about "peak oil".

    A recent article in the Times and Journal suggests some stations are price gouging given the difference in pricing between stations with it being up to €0.10c a litre cheaper in neighbouring Counties.

    Just back from Limerick. Passed numerous garages,all , bar one I saw are selling petrol and diesel at E1.99.So if they are price gouging, they must all be in on it. But it also makes a mockery of any glib ministerial statement to "shop around" for better prices.


    Or, tin foil hat time, is this an attempt (given current situation in the world) to push those on the fence towards EVs and away from Petrol/Diesel motors given the commitment of the Government to end sales of such cars by 2030 and a total ban of them on the roads by 2040?

    I'd certainly say there is an element of "never let a good crisis go to waste" in some thinking here in the current situation. But it's an utter pipe dream to believe that this will all be sorted by loads of windmills powering EVs, unless you happen to be as naive as Ryan, or won't mention the Irish French interconnector will be supplying us with Nuke power electricity while we are being bamboozled that we are exporting surplus energy to France.

    Petrol and diesel will still be here past the hysteronic doomsday date of the 2030 world's end. As it will still be needed for the myriad of agricultural and heavy equipment as well as small gas enginesout there.At the moment it is the usual "Trouser as much as possible,and fudge this with the "EU excuse" to do nothing. In this case some white paper from an EU cabinet statement according to Leona on the news over the last few days.

    I ask because I notice the VRT or VAT (cannot remember which) has been increased for EVs and grants/subsidies (for buying them) have ended. In other words the Government are going to slowly start introducing taxes and charges that never applied to EVs to try offset the Billions in lost revenue that will come from eliminating Petrol/Diesel motors.

    Simply because I reckon this was never thought properly thru by them.Too much virtue signalling and brown paper envelopes and not enough sums done as well as reality checks. How do you tax an EV that has the same engine as all the rest in power, more or less? Will we be looking at a 14 Amp as being the same as a 4 litre V8 in the future or whatever?

    Watch in another 3to 4 years, we will be told that Hydrogen is THE thing, with all the eco propaganda surrounding buying your new hydrogen bomb...er, family car and your resource gobbling burnt out battery EV won't be worth spit. But at the moment they have us over a barrel on the fuel prices,as you basically work here to keep a car under you to go to work to pay for the car which needs fuel,esp if you live anywhere outside a city area. Am surprised the Irish hauliers and everyone else who has a car for that matter hasn't gone and got together to organise a Canadian style Freedom convoy and taken over Kildare st and surrounds to protest about this...oh wait! Forgot we don't really do protest here...

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • Registered Users Posts: 270 ✭✭keith s


    Have a look see where we sit, probably not updated today's price, but the website says they updated the countries with astrix weekly.


    https://www.globalpetrolprices.com/gasoline_prices/



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,949 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    Was that the Russian top brass that was reported a couple of days ago?Or a new kill?Could be possible either type of gun as Ukraine uses both.

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • Registered Users Posts: 38,989 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    Was the top brass that caught my eye, two others were shot in the same area. No guarantee it was the same shooter of course.

    Apparently, he turned up to the top of that convoy thats stuck in the mud, without fuel, and began shouting and blazing ordering people about. sniper 1500mm away can make out an obviously senior ranking official. Pop. I'd like to hope there was some suitable last words, ("They couldn't hit an elephant at this distan..." - General John Sedgwick).

    I was thinking that they will have far more Dragunovs ,so that would make it more likely. But I suppose the longer range shots are going to be very much bias to the .50 Cal Barrett



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  • Registered Users Posts: 14,949 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    Think 1,500 meters rather than 1500 millimetres[mm about 3.3 feet] is more like.

    If it was a Dragunov, that is almost double its effective range, [depending on type and brand and where made ]. So well worth celebrating.If it was a Barett, just another normal working day.

    Either way what the Hell is a general doing cruising around the battlefield? That kind of went out as your example of the late Gen Sedgwick shows, around that time in leadership examples. That is serious morale and chain in command blow to any army to have your top brass being picked off and shows things are really screwed for them out there.

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • Registered Users Posts: 550 ✭✭✭JP22


    Either way what the Hell is a general doing cruising around the battlefield? 


    Its been know to happen, lots of middle ranking/top brass like to be seen strutting around, issuing orders, etc... they just make a nuisance of themselves and become a target.

    Armys world wide learnt this the hard way, senior ranks in conflicts do not wear insignia for this very reason.



  • Registered Users Posts: 38,989 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    Yes m not mm. lol, Stevie Wonder could hit a bullseye at 1500mm (5ft).

    For interest I looked it up there, Dagunov max distance shot is current 1350m. So 1500m is admittedly less likely that a 50cal.

    The General was sent into sort out the mess. Sending him in was another piece of the clusterf**k. Idiocy.



  • Registered Users Posts: 549 ✭✭✭Munsterlad102


    F*ck me Grizz, this took me days to get through ;). Iceland was just an example that I heard about a while back and whether or not that I was right on that specific example doesn't really matter since there are other countries with no standing army. But you sort of admit yourself that they can't defend their borders, and even with a police force/paramilitary force they couldn't stop the allied occupation in WW2. What about Iran before the Soviet-British occupation in 1941? Surely 126,000 men and 200 tanks would be enough to preserve independence. Organization of the Iranian Army in 1921-1941 – Dr. Kaveh Farrokh. My point being, both Iceland and Iran had very different military strengths, whereas the Vatican remained independent, but the former folded unlike the unarmed latter, ergo you don't need a military to be independent.

    Come on Grizz, invading a country time and time again until they bend the knee and bankroll their entire military and you say there's no influence? Come on Grizz, you really think George Jr would let all that oil go without any controlling American influence?

    As to the point on the RAF, I forget the initial points that were made exactly, but I'm just going to reiterate that we can't be militarily non aligned if we rely on the Brits for air cover and also that we don't need to protect our airspace to be independent.

    Just because plans were drawn up for certain scenarios, that doesn't mean these were going to go ahead, sure look at ourselves in the 80s with our own plan to invade the North. Doesn't mean we were going to invade a nuclear power. It's highly unlikely that NATO or the USSR would decide to nuke and occupy Ireland all for a couple of airfields and ports, all for valuable nukes and having to garrison a very hostile population.

    I'm not sure why Waterford would be a target, the port is fairly sh*t. Not much goes in or out of it.

    Apologies if I didn't address any of your points, I just got a bit lost in all the information



  • Registered Users Posts: 549 ✭✭✭Munsterlad102


    Well in this context I'm referring to military neutrality not political neutrality, so no, not huge differences between both. But of course you can explain the difference between not taking a side in a war and well, not taking a side in a war.

    Concessions don't equal a declaration of war. Just because we were favouring the allies for pragmatic reasons, that doesn't mean we were ready to fight Hitler.

    You clearly have a skewed perspective on concessions. Do you really think a weather report or Donegal airspace is that important?

    Again, not politically neutral, neutral in military terms.



  • Registered Users Posts: 550 ✭✭✭JP22


    We all have our views on the subject and at least we don’t get locked up for it here unlike those in Russia presently. 15 years in jail for mentioning the words invasion or war.

    I’ll stand by my views; favouring one side over another is just not fair. You either stand with one side and support them fully or stand with no side and give no concessions whatsoever to either side.

    One thing is certain though, from here on Ireland will have to once and for all tackle its stance on neutrality, its defence capabilities, its defence funding and whether or not we join Nato.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,949 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    F*ck me Grizz, this took me days to get through ;). Iceland was just an example that I heard about a while back and whether or not that I was right on that specific example doesn't really matter since there are other countries with no standing army. But you sort of admit yourself that they can't defend their borders, and even with a police force/paramilitary force they couldn't stop the allied occupation in WW2.

    Seeing that they are NATO and under its umbrella today...The point is moot and in the 1930s/40s they were an outpost of Denmark,same as Greenland . So like French Indochina occupiable land by anyone who could take or want it.

    Surely 126,000 men and 200 tanks would be enough to preserve independence. Organization of the Iranian Army in 1921-1941 – Dr. Kaveh Farrokh.

    Not necessarily... Someone staying "neutral " in a middle eastern country that has a whole different outlook on life and alliances usually based on a tribal level is not going to happen in our Western sense of the word and despite your equipment and army size.As we saw in Afghanistan last year.

    Come on Grizz, invading a country time and time again until they bend the knee and bankroll their entire military and you say there's no influence? Come on Grizz, you really think George Jr would let all that oil go without any controlling American influence?

    ASFIK we only invaded Iraq ONCE directly using US forces??? And how many US personnel are left there now?Last time I heard the Iraquis were , more or less governing themselves and doing a better job of holding accountable and transparent elections than the US was in 2020!

    We should have gone further and straight into Bagdad with the UN Colation in the Gulf War, but because of George Senior and the UN edict to liberate Kuwait,we had to go back and do it under Geo Jnr. Conspiracy theories notwithstanding!NO it was not about oil either! It was about taking a vital piece of real estate in the Middle East. Iraq is the crossroads. You can go from Bagdad to at least 7 countries in that region and knock on their door if they started getting bolshie.

    Just because plans were drawn up for certain scenarios, that doesn't mean these were going to go ahead, sure look at ourselves in the 80s with our own plan to invade the North. That doesn't mean we were going to invade a nuclear power. It's highly unlikely that NATO or the USSR would decide to nuke and occupy Ireland all for a couple of airfields and ports, all for valuable nukes and having to garrison a very hostile population.

    That was in 1972 if memory serves correct and it was a ridiculous brain fart by the old school FFrs still in the cabinet back then that must have been concocted in the Dail bar after one too many. But you are just making the point I made, it doesn't mean it would have happened, just that it COULD have happened. It would also have as said, have come down to who got here first. Let's be honest,if the Irish army couldn't secure 6 counties from Ireland, back in the Cold war/NI conflict what could it have done against a fully tooled up US /UK or Warsaw Pact airborne division parking itself in Shannon or Dublin airports?Not that either NATO or WP would have tolerated that happening by either side and have simply nuked the place to deny the other side the usage thereof. By the time the indigent mobs would have got organised here.It would have been over in a 6 million degrees moment. Remember too, they wouldn't need the Tsar bomb to do us in, even one in the strength of Hiroshima would be enough to shut us up here in Ireland, even today.

    I'm not sure why Waterford would be a target, the port is fairly sh*t. Not much goes in or out of it.

    You are thinking in today's terms and situation.Go back 35/40 years in the Cold war times. Much more happening then in both Cork and Waterford ports in facilities and resources.

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • Registered Users Posts: 737 ✭✭✭sfakiaman


    Or maybe it wasn't 1500 metres, there are good reasons why officers don't lead from the front as many found out in Vietnam.



  • Registered Users Posts: 38,989 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    Do you mean that the 1500mm may have been exaggerated. Of course that's likely, it certainly was rounded up to a convenient number*. But not sure how that relates no officers on the front line. As Grizzly and I referred to, it went out in the US Civil War for High ranking officers, but I'd say there are plenty of standard officers floating about the front, or close enoughto make no difference


    *The Soviets were fond of making up fictional sniper feats for propaganda purposes. If you seen Enemy at the Gates, the sniper fight between a Soviet sniper and a Nazi master sniper. The soviet was a real sniper, with certainly a career. But whole saga was made up. As was a lot of the feats of the female Lady Death sniper.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 14,949 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    *The Soviets were fond of making up fictional sniper feats for propaganda purposes. If you seen Enemy at the Gates, the sniper fight between a Soviet sniper and a Nazi master sniper. The soviet was a real sniper, with certainly a career. But whole saga was made up. As was a lot of the feats of the female Lady Death sniper.

    The Zaietzev[who ironically died in Keiv in 1991] Vs Maj Erwin Konig Stalingrad duel seems to be a mix of Zaitzev's memoirs in his diary and some sort of sniping event,and propaganda .There certainly was no German sniper called Konig in charge of the German sniper school,or anyone by that name in Wehrmacht sniper records with a Majors rank.He ,Zaitzev certainly shot a sniper in some ruined industrial area, and claimed to have taken the scope as a souvenir.

    I think Zaitzev was simply doing what many snipers do and was a tradition started by Major Heathkith -Piskard in WW1 of personalising your opponent by giving them a name and learning their habits and mode of operation.As sniping is a very personal one on one war it is proably of some psychological benefit? So maybe for some reason Zaitzev simply named this German sniper Major Konig for some reason in his diary and report,and as the Russians had captured a German soldier who told them that the Germans were sending their best sniper to hunt Zaitzev but had no name to give his captors and the legend grew from that?

    Like as we see with the "Ghost of Keiv" story and possibly the Snake Island "Russian warship...Go Fuk yourself!" incident. People need a story of hope when things are utterly grim to uplift and galvanise them to fight. The Russians certainly made propaganda hay of this event.

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



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