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Formula 1 Round 22 Abu Dhabi GP

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 73 ✭✭nf2k


    But the decision tree is different conditional on whether you are leading or second, second mover has the advantage, therefore the judgement of the director has a different impact on first Vs second running cars. He went off piste with his decision, therefore he has to be able to stand over it as being even handed. It benefitted the options available to one team better than another. Red flag was the right call.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 6,235 ✭✭✭This is it


    How could red flag be the right call when it wasn't a red flag situation.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,451 ✭✭✭Anjobe


    Don't see the irony of calling Lewis fans out for whining about Abu Dhabi, whilst yourself whining about an another incident that fortunately/unfortunately (depending on your point of view) happened to work out in his favour over 5 months ago? By calling it "intentional" you're just showing the extent of your own partisan bias, and the "same fools" that you refer to are not just Lewis fans, but pretty much everyone involved in competing in, writing about or broadcasting F1.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,839 ✭✭✭quokula


    As has been said, the track was clear on lap 56 and according to article 48.13 of the sporting regulations the safety car will be called in as soon as the track is deemed safe. There was plenty of time to let through the backmarkers including the last couple on this lap, in order to avoid what would be an utterly unprecedented step of not letting them through. If they had been allowed through at this point like they normally do and like multiple teams were on the radio expecting them to, all other arguments would have been completely null and void. Unfortunately they delayed doing this, probably due to the amount of lobbying they were dealing with, but it was by far and away the lesser of two evils to follow correct procedure a little late than to just throw it out the window because of a slight delay.

    It would have gone against the rule book and gone against what all the teams agreed to, if they were to end under a safety car despite the track being clear for multiple laps. It would have thrown all precedent out the window to not allow lapped cars through. Missing the last couple of backmarkers was not ideal but ultimately it had absolutely zero impact on the outcome of the race. It cost Ricciardo a shot at 11th place perhaps, but the purpose of the rule is to get backmarkers out of the way of front runners, not to ensure backmarkers have a better chance of gaining places.

    Sometimes the rules contradict each other and a call has to be made because it's impossible for the regulations to encapsulate every possible event that could ever happen.

    In this case the rules are clear that the safety car should be called in as soon as it is safe. This is doubly important near the end of the race as all teams unanimously agreed beforehand that finishing under green flags should always be the priority, and it would have made a mockery of the sport to keep the safety car out for an extra two laps and end under a safety car despite the fact the track had been entirely safe for a long time.

    The second rule in article 48.12, which you are homing in on and have decided is the only one that matters above all else, is that there should be a lap between the lapped cars being let by and the safety car coming in. This directly contradicts the above rule. So a judgement call needs to be made. It's worth noting that the entire reason for this rule is so the leaders don't suddenly catch a large gaggle of lapped cars 3 or 4 laps after the safety car comes in. This can't happen when there's too few laps remaining, so that justification is gone. Secondly, if they'd been quick enough off the mark the lapped cars could easily have been let past a lap earlier, which is the reason why so many teams and drivers were on the radio saying it should be happening, so to anally follow this rule at the expense of the above rule would basically have just been doubling down on that mistake, rather than correcting it.

    Objectively, there were two rules in direct contradiction of each other given the circumstances and it was only physically possible to apply one of them - this is why article 15.3 exists which says the race director has full discretion in how these are applied. If it was half way through a race with plenty of time for green flag racing and the real possibility that the leaders would catch the pack of backmarkers again if they hadn't pulled out enough of a gap, delaying bringing in the safety car would probably have taken priority. But in the actual cricumstances, given the choice between applying the rule that everyone unanimously agreed in advance should be applied in order to avoid finishing behind the safety car, or applying the one who's whole purpose was moot given the number of laps remaining, and which should never have entered the equation anyway if they hadn't been so slow to let lapped cars through on the previous lap, the race director made the only logical choice. It would have been absolutely unprecedented to have done anything else.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,454 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    OK. Now back to the question I asked.

    Is it normal to only unlap certain cars and not others?

    Is it normal to bring in the safety car on the same lap that the cars unlap themselves?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,946 ✭✭✭✭dulpit


    This is such a boring conversation now...



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 19,485 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    Red flag would have benefitted one party unfairly as it was not a natural red flag situation.

    It was a safety car situation, I can't say much more than that. Lewis should have pitted.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,406 ✭✭✭alan partridge aha


    Heard Lineker made another reference on SPOTY. What an absolute tool.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,451 ✭✭✭Anjobe


    What difference would that have made? We would most likely be having the same argument about Max being robbed and Lewis winning unfairly - can you imagine the outrage that would have caused? The point here is really not about who won and who lost, it is about the race director overriding certain regulations in a way that directly influenced the outcome of the race. We know he has the authority to do that, but just because one can do something it does not mean they should, and Masi should have known better.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 19,485 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    No, there should be a safety car as the situation dictates. Same as , if the situation dictates (eg if the barrier was deformed) then there would be a red flag.

    Whiney "noo michael that isnt right" messages to the race director dont help the situation.

    Safety cars, VSC, red flags etc are not about "fairness". They are about clearing the track and keeping racing.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,946 ✭✭✭✭dulpit


    The issue is that the safety car rules are vague enough to allow these interpretations.


    I'd say Masi is cursing Latifi. If he crashed one lap earlier or later it wouldn't have mattered (1 lap earlier and they clear all backmarkers as usual; 1 lap later and they likely finish under safety).



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,839 ✭✭✭quokula


    Yes so many people are only looking at this through the lens of who it helped or didn't help and are blinded by their biases. The safety car is there for safety. You can't throw a red flag when it isn't warranted. You can't keep the safety car out needlessly for extra laps long after the blockage is cleared.

    Sometimes people get lucky from safety car periods and sometimes they don't. Sometimes teams and drivers make the most of them with perfectly executed strategies and sometimes they don't think quickly enough on their feet and get caught out. Any luck at Abu Dhabi was more than balanced out over the course of the season and it's really tiresome the amount of people who just don't understand F1, or think the season was only one race long, or are just plain salty because their man was beaten, all of which is of course being egged on by the Mercedes PR machine and the media trying to create a controversy out of a fairly standard safety car period.

    It's really tiresome at this stage.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,451 ✭✭✭Anjobe


    To be clear, I meant what difference would Hamilton pitting have made?

    Oh, the irony! The controversy around Abu Dhabi is nothing to do with who won and who lost, it is just to do with how the decision of an official, made to ensure a grandstand finish, directly influenced the result of the race.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,283 ✭✭✭Longing




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,454 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    Well, they did it to maximise he drama. They agreed to try to finish races under green flags (for the drama) and they cleared the cars between max and Lewis (and only between max and lewis) for the drama of a last lap shoot out.

    I have always said it wasn't pro-max or anti-Hamilton. It was just for the drama.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 6,235 ✭✭✭This is it


    You calling others out for being "blinded by their biases" is hilarious 😂



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,454 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    Ah shur stop. That poster went on and on about Hamilton celebrating winning his home race because he didn't know Max's medical condition. I think we can be pretty sure they would have disagreed with every decision the race director made IF the decisions had benefitted Lewis and not Max.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,034 ✭✭✭✭Frank Bullitt




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,839 ✭✭✭quokula


    Yes because you'd have to be totally biased to think it's distasteful to celebrate after putting someone in hospital obviously.

    But then you know you've lost the argument when you start finding completely unrelated points with which to try to attack other posters rather than addressing the actual points being made.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,454 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    Yeah. You labelling anyone "blinded by their bias" is hilarious to everyone. That's the joke which everyone gets except yourself.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,735 ✭✭✭✭Itssoeasy


    Fair play to Latifi for making this statement but it further confirms that social media has given a voice and encouragement for a vocal minority to act like utter shite hawks and say whatever they want. How **** sad do you have to be to send death threats to an F1 driver and his family over the end of the race which he had no part in.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,096 ✭✭✭Liamalone


    All this chat would've been moot if Hamilton had the skill to hold off Verstappen for a couple of miles, he couldn't unfortunately.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,877 ✭✭✭SureYWouldntYa


    All Hamilton had to do was go shoe down, flat out and he would have won



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 6,235 ✭✭✭This is it


    Max on new softs and Hamilton on very old hards meant he hadn't a hope. Max can brake later, accelerate quicker, accelerate harder off the corner. Hamilton was a sitting duck, no amount of skill was keeping Max behind.

    Roles reversed and the same thing happens in my opinion.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,883 ✭✭✭✭flazio


    Perez though. Wasn't Perez in the exact same situation as Lewis earlier in the race? Look I'm not saying over the course of a season Checo is better than Lewis but in this instance Checo showed he was hungrier.

    This too shall pass.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,674 ✭✭✭TheRona


    Yup, Perez managed to hold up Hamilton who was lapping multiple seconds per lap faster, whereas Hamilton couldn't hold off Verstappen who was probably less than a second a lap faster.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,892 ✭✭✭✭mickdw


    Perez was on old soft tyres that presumably he had saved abit. They were also at racing temp.

    Hamilton was at a restart on cold old tyres which are known to be near impossible to have up to temp at a restart.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,883 ✭✭✭✭flazio


    It's just one of those things and now in the week leading up to Christmas I'm ready to join the ceasefire and move on. The abuse Latifi is getting is pretty sad though.

    This too shall pass.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,454 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    I think you're right that max had all that advantage plus Hamilton's tyres were older so probably much more difficult to get the heat into them. But Max still had to execute it. It wasn't a foregone conclusion but Max was heavy favourite at the restart once all the lapped cars were cleared for him.

    I wouldn't take away from the fact that Max had to get the move done in the single lap available to him.



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  • Site Banned Posts: 12,341 ✭✭✭✭Faugheen


    Perez also had DRS, which was what allowed him to get back past Hamilton.

    People seem to ignore this fact on purpose.



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