Munster Team Talk Thread - Beirne After Reading

thomond2006 · 28-10-2021 12:35PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118084872#Comment_118084872

Don't reply to misery merchants.

RichieRich_89 · 28-10-2021 12:35PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118084947#Comment_118084947

It looks as if Munster have reverted to 6. POM, 7. JOD this season, though. Is anything going to change that? Would they actually select Beirne at 6, with Wycherley partnering Kleyn in the second row? It doesn't look as if they're considering Wycherley at blindside at the moment.

Even just switching POM and JOD around would be a big improvement, in my opinion. Yes, it would still be the same two players, but they could focus on the roles they're more suited to. O'Donoghue is a fine blindside.

TomsOnTheRoof · 28-10-2021 12:38PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118084947#Comment_118084947

Ah stop with your facts will you! O'Mahony getting MOTM against NZ will forever remain one of my favourite Irish rugby moments. Not only was it well deserved but it left so many people with egg on their face.

Akrasia · 28-10-2021 12:39PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118083525#Comment_118083525

We lost to the Ospreys playing a game that involved a lot more passing and a lot less kicking than before. Ospreys kicked more than us and won

We literally dropped the ball against them, because we were trying new things ,we were carrying less and passing more, and our accuracy wasn't good enough.

Munster would likely have won easily if we played the same old ram them over the line tactics that worked against Ospreys in the past, in fact Ospreys played that game and it's why they won.

People blaming JVG for this performance, saying that he is one dimensional, you're just wrong, if anyone is to blame, it's Larkham for not drilling these new expansive moves heavily enough to improve accuracy, or maybe it was just the players, many of whom haven't played yet this season for Munster, who just didn't have the minutes to gel properly and execute these complex patterns with enough accurately

This, and our scrum did not perform, again, not JVGs fault, Rowntree is the Forwards coach, I think the Ospreys just managed to win the referee's favour early in the game, came up with a trick that looked like Ryan was scrummaging illegally, and the ref just decided that Munster's scrum was at fault, so we coughed up multiple penalties in this area and killed momentum repeatedly.

TomsOnTheRoof · 28-10-2021 12:43PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118085041#Comment_118085041

The scrum was a mess. Ospreys were backtracking on "engage" and we were getting pinged for going early.

Dubinusa · 28-10-2021 12:52PM

It will depend on the upward trajectory of the young lads going forward! As this season continues, it will be vital for Munster to have Knox or Wycherly get gametime to pressure and surpass the regular starters.

John Ryan and Archer are good players! But, they won't impact or dominate in a match. Niall Scannell is also a good player, but around the park he's not at a difference making level. Kilcoyne is that type of of player. But the 2nd row is very strong!

If these lads are unable to reach these levels, then they will struggle. I would assume they will bring in an import! Jenkins being brought in has been a dud. He hasn't played yet. I think they should have signed a front rower instead.

Larkham too hasn't made a mark on Munster. Perhaps, VanGrann trusts the old Munster way a bit too much? It's tough to predict what will be the outcome this year. I wouldn't write Munster off. I reckon they are a top 8 side in Europe. There's a chance that with some luck and a couple of young players pushing through, they can win a trophy.

It's not all crap in Limerick! This squad is far deeper than in years past.

Akrasia · 28-10-2021 12:52PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118085065#Comment_118085065

Yeah, I saw this during the match, seemed blatant to me, but if it was Munster getting away with it, I wouldn't be complaining.

Rowntree should have been able to sort that at half time but maybe the damage was already done by then.

sydthebeat · 28-10-2021 12:55PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118084838#Comment_118084838

the fact that schmidt was never a head coach before leinster though as never really an issue because the improvements were obvious.. thus the reason that i agreed with LOs posts where he was saying that essentially its showing that JVG hasnt been head coach previously. By the end of schmidts 3rd year with leinster he'd won 2 Heineken cups, a Pro12 and a Challange cup.

However JVG has literally NO coaching experience at club level before munster.

Video analyst for bulls led to video analyst for SA and the 3 years as forwards coach for south Africa during a particular nadir in their development which saw them drop from 2nd in the world to 6th.

I actually believe that if Munster had a coach like dean richards or richard cockrill munster would have won something in the last couple of years.

Red Silurian · 28-10-2021 01:04PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118085124#Comment_118085124

I saw this too but then I also saw forward passes and dropped balls that you can't blame on the ospreys front row

aloooof · 28-10-2021 01:15PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118085020#Comment_118085020

SNyman likely would’ve influenced the change here, but we all know what happened there. Last game out, they played Beirne 6 and POM 7. It think it still remains to be seen what way they’ll go in the bigger games.

aloooof · 28-10-2021 01:17PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118085041#Comment_118085041

I think this is spot on, tbh. The charge that we just box-kick doesn’t stack up any more. I’d love to see some stats, but I’d wager our box kicking is way down front that awful Leinster game where we kicked the lard off it…

aloooof · 28-10-2021 01:27PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118085151#Comment_118085151

Ya, obviously no disagreement with Schmidt.

Fair enough, not sure I agree, but imagine what this place would’ve been like for provincial relations if Munster had hired Dean Richards…

sydthebeat · 28-10-2021 01:33PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118085506#Comment_118085506

Well munster do play in red, so.....

:D

phog · 28-10-2021 01:52PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118084244#Comment_118084244

This might be the point he was trying to make but my issue with him was that he said that JvG wasn't even a decent coach which in my view is wide of the mark.

FWIW, I'm not arguing that we should extend his contract but equally I'm not so sure that a new coach will change our end of season position too much.

aloooof · 28-10-2021 01:59PM

https://twitter.com/ballsdotie/status/1452907855804207106?s=24

Small bit of levity, wouldn’t go astray here.

Akrasia · 28-10-2021 02:00PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118085410#Comment_118085410

If you look at ESPN stats

Munster passed the ball 123 times, ran/carried it 74 times, Ration 1.7:1

and kicked it from hand 28 times

(there was a bit if kick tennis going on for parts of the match, but also some nice little cross-field and grubber kicks)

Compared to the last time we played Ospreys Munster 38 ospreys 22

108 passes, 96 Runs/carries ratio 1.1:1

And just for good measure the time before that Munster 33: Ospreys 6

172 passes, 173 runs ratio 1:1

Just against Ospreys, we're passing a lot more now compared to last year where we were taking the ball into contact way more and recycling the ball from the breakdown

It's really a totally different style of rugby that comes with lots of risks, every time you pass the ball, you risk a forward pass, an intercept, a fumble or even just that it allows the defense to re-organise and you end up passing left and right but not making any ground

Munster were very good at carrying the ball and winning territory, but all the pundits and experts and fans demanded that we stop playing this way, and play more expansive rugby. If we're gonna do this, we're gonna need the players to build up the kind of fluidity that you need to be able to play on the edge and recover from the inevitable dropped pass

Whatever about criticising Munster for playing poorly on Saturday, it's not very fair to say the gamestyle has not changed.

Munster would have easily won that match had we not made a couple of crucial handling errors or if our scrum and lineout had been that little bit more prepared

molloyjh · 28-10-2021 02:27PM

I’m struggling to understand what those stats prove. In summary Munster are currently proportionally kicking more and running less than 3 games ago against Ospreys? Obviously selections, conditions, home vs away location, form etc all play a big part in these stats. And these performances may not be in any way indicative of how Munster are performing at any point in time. So how meaningful this is I’m not sure.

But what we can read into this is that for every kick Munster put in against Ospreys in the last 3 fixtures they had 4.4 passes and 2.6 runs in the most recent fixture, 5.4 passes and 4.8 runs in the one before and 8.6 passes and 8.7 runs in the one before that again.

The average number of kicks across the 3 games was was 22.7. The average number of passes was 134.3 and the average number of runs was 114.3. So Munster kicked more than average last time out, they passed less than average and they ran less than average.

Compared to the 3rd game in that sample set, Munster are now kicking 30% more, passing 40% less and running a whopping 134% less. Even compared to the 2nd game in the sample set Munster are now kicking 30% more, passing 12% more and running 30% less.

Obviously that 3rd game was an outlier given the metres made as well. It seems to have been a one sided affair. The second game is probably more worth looking at comparatively. But unless we look at all the factors I’m not sure it tells us anything at all. I certainly don’t see it telling us that Munster have varied their game. If they have it suggests Munster have become more conservative, not less.

aloooof · 28-10-2021 02:57PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118085918#Comment_118085918

Your straight averages are meaningless tho molloy; you don't get the same number of possessions per game. You'd need a weighted average to get something meaningful; Akrasia's passes:runs ratio accounts for that.

I think to anyone who's seen Muster regularly over the last season and bit, it's been pretty obvious that they're trying to be more expansive. I'd be amazed if number of passes per phase wasn't up massively.

Akrasia · 28-10-2021 02:58PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118085918#Comment_118085918

On their own, they don't prove anything, I just picked the last 3 ospreys matches because the same opposition would indicate the same strategy

If the pass to carry ratio is 1 to 1, then it's basically, taken from the back of the ruck, passed and carried into contact, recycled and carried into contact again with a box kick thrown in every few phases to try to catch the other team on transition.

If the pass to carry ratio is much higher than 1 to 1, then we're passing the ball multiple times for every carry, it indicates that we're trying to play the ball a bit more and this results in some of the kicks being probing kicks behind the defense, such as the couple of crossfield kicks and the 3 or so grubbers played during the game, not to mention the 2 50:22s we got in the game and the dropgoal attempt at the end of the match. Its not the same 'box kick a thon' that Munster critics never get bored of accusing us of.

I'm not gonna go back and rewatch all of those matches and count the box kicks vs kicks for touch or kicks behind the defensive line as part of a linebreak. you're welcome to do this if you happen to have them saved in your Sky + box. (and if not, Why not!)

molloyjh · 28-10-2021 03:04PM

Ah yeah, I’m not trying to say that you’re wrong or anything. I simply can’t say as I haven’t seen enough of Munster over the last year or so. I just don’t think the stats there can tell us much. I see your point re the pass to run ratio though. I probably misunderstood that entirely.

aloooof · 28-10-2021 03:12PM

I've put together kick-pass-run percentages per possession from the stats above to illustrate my point about your averages. (Obviously it's a small sample, but I do think it is indicative of what we've seen changing for Munster):

Most recent Ospreys game:

Pass: 55%, Run: 33%, Kick: 12%

Next most recent:

Pass: 48%, Runs: 43%, Kick: 9%

Next most recent:

Pass: 39%, Runs: 52%, Kick: 9%

So pretty clearly, we're trying to pass far more often and be more expansive.

Our kick % is up a bit is which is the most surprising to me, but I reckon it's in part due to some of the kick-tennis we saw last weekend. I also suspect the type of kick is different. Trying to manipulate things for 50:22's is also likely to be a factor.

TomsOnTheRoof · 28-10-2021 03:41PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118085124#Comment_118085124

It was canny play by Ospreys. They caught us horribly. Like you, I was expecting it to be addressed at half time but it didn't happen, for whatever reason.

stephen_n · 28-10-2021 08:20PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118086124#Comment_118086124

It’s interesting that what those stats show most is that you ran a lot less. Is that an attempt to get the ball wide more often?

aloooof · 28-10-2021 08:43PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118087496#Comment_118087496

That's my interpretation anyways i.e. more passing and less running into contact. It's what I would have guessed just from watching games (even if this is a very small sample) but the stats seems to bear that out.

Just the accuracy and skill levels aren't quite where we need them to be.

28-10-2021 09:03PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118083525#Comment_118083525

I don't want to come across as defending van Grann but I just think it's very hard to change the DNA of the team. If we want to play different rugby we probably need different players.

I think that's true for most teams fwiw.

stephen_n · 28-10-2021 09:06PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118087617#Comment_118087617

Makes sense with the 50:22 there is more room in the wide channels. All teams are trying to exploit that. The passing will come though. Look how many handling errors Leinster had in the opening games.

Michael Zozimus Moran · 29-10-2021 10:45AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118078063#Comment_118078063

It’s funny. I have seen a whole lot of anti Van Grann sentiment since the start of his tenure even before he arrived and it has all come from Leinster Ulster supporters. Why are Leinster supporters so keen on Munster doing well since Van Grann came in? Your guess is as good as mine but the posts preceding yours by Lost Ormonde and Molloy are just examples.

I seem to remember these self same ogres sticking up for Eddie O Sullivan for eight seasons and Declan Kidnwy who in fairness won two HC’s. Why? It’s apparent. Neil Francis being a more blatant example but has his clones from similar backgrounds.

But there is a strange strand going through all the anti Van Grann stuff I’ve read over the past 4-5 years. It’s all been how these self same “Ulster” and Leinster supporters want Munster all of a sudden to do well. There is no mention of a squad in transition or a lack of depth during that time.

There has been a high volume of passing snide remarks about “imports” and non Irish qualified players. During all this time I have come to the conclusion such is the subtle and directed nature of such posts are such that the posters have indeed alterior motives usually and probably of an anti foreigner and more directed anti-Dutch sentiment.

Unleash all ye calm do gooders!

aloooof · 29-10-2021 10:59AM

"ogres"

"Neil Francis"

"alterior motives"

"anti-Dutch"

Bingo!

Teferi · 29-10-2021 11:05AM

I enjoyed the "Ulster" bit, implying that they don't actually exist.

Cookiemunster · 29-10-2021 11:07AM

Jaysus, calling Lost Ormond a Leinster/Ulster fan is probably a worse insult to him than criticising a referee 😂

Munster Team Talk Thread - Beirne After Reading

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