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Munster Team Talk Thread - Beirne After Reading

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Comments

  • Posts: 1,478 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I don't want to come across as overly critical of our tight 5 because God knows they are doing things none of us could do but do we really think many of our current tight 5 or the prospects there would currently be starting for Leinster, Saracens or Toulouse? Being capable, which they certainly are, isn't good enough to win the big, big games.

    We could be better in the centres definitely too but our real problem is, and has been for about a decade, the tight 5 (I'd argue we've lacked a top class 7 for most of that time too tbh). Maybe that's shifting because I don't think it's outrageous to think Kleyn or Wycherley could get more Irish caps soon. For the life of me I've no idea why we never poached Tralee man Dillane back from Connacht.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 882 ✭✭✭Lsdrugbyfan


    Wycherley is too small to be a top level international lock.

    Tom Ahern is the only forward munster prospect that would be interesting to leinster IMO.



  • Posts: 1,478 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Probably right on both counts but I think Wycherley has an amount of dog in him not all Irish forwards have. Being realistic i don't think he's in the same bracket as Ryan, Henderson, Beirne or Baird and probably won't get there. He could end up as a useful bench option covering 6 too i suppose, though Beirne and Baird are ahead of him there too.



  • Posts: 10,091 ✭✭✭✭ Ryan Whispering Bassoon


    I don't think they'd kick kenndellan out of bed for eating crisps either



  • Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 36,274 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    Another number 8 is the last thing Leinster need



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,790 ✭✭✭✭Burkie1203


    But they brought Larkham in to change things up but far too often they revert to box kicks and mauls etc. Opponents are delighted when that happens because they don't have to think too hard about defending.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 882 ✭✭✭Lsdrugbyfan


    while very talented, leinster don't need anymore backrows.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 882 ✭✭✭Lsdrugbyfan


    He is probably a 7 at pro level, but again leinster don't need another 7.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 26,511 ✭✭✭✭phog


    I'm finding it hard to get a handle on what your barometer is for rating coaches, I mean if you class JvG as not being a decent coach (because that's what you stated) then I wonder how good must a coach be to be classed as good, great or fantastic. How would you rate the last few Munster coaches? Why hasn't any previous coach (head or backs coach) changed our style to get more out of the likes Zebo, Earls, Conway, etc? Why is JvG the big villain for not achieving it when all the rest stuck with a similar game plan.

    How do you rate Friend at Connacht and Farrell at Ireland?

    Personally, I think we've seen glimpses of change but it's dependent on us we winning the collisions to gain a platform. We're not doing that as much as we need to. JvG recognised this and went and signed players that would help us achieve that but unfortunately one of them has played just over 50 minutes of rugby for us in a season and a half.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 26,511 ✭✭✭✭phog


    There is absolutely no harm in trying for a new coach but what coach will bring us success? Who's standing around waiting for the job? Also, do we want it to become like soccer, where coaches are dumped because of lack of success? Do we want to become the untouchables of rugby, coaches knowing if they fail to win trophies with us then they'll get the boot because our win ratio is very good under JvG and yet we want rid of him



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,366 ✭✭✭yerrahbah


    I would say we are about to enter a period of a few years where our regular internationals will be winding down and will need to be replaced

    Stander(already retired), Kilcoyne (32), O'Mahony (32), Conor Murray (32), Keith Earls (34)

    We have some promising players coming through but they'll have to replace 4 Lions and 2 Lions captains

    Not everyone can play to 36 like Sexton

    Would the new head coach want his own backroom team?

    Do we want a brand new coaching ticket while trying to replace the above?



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 4,999 Mod ✭✭✭✭Lost Ormond


    Van Grann has benefit of seeing what didnt work for these coaches... he has had 4 years. where is the improvement. People keep saying to wait for this and that and keep finding excuses for him. He isnt the solution and isnt going to get Munster a trophy. Some coaches did try change how Munster played the game but it didnt work for wide variety of reasons. Van Grann had never been a head coach before he took charge of Munster. Its showing.

    Friend is a good coach but you cant compare the two based on the resources they have. players or financial.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 26,511 ✭✭✭✭phog


    Van Grann has benefit of seeing what didnt work for these coaches...


    I GIVE UP



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,779 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    Maybe I’m misreading LOs point, but is it not simply that continuing to do the same thing is not going to lead to different outcomes? Trying something different might not work, but continuing with the same thing definitely won’t. Larkham was arguably brought in to bring something different to the set-up. Has there been any sign other than the odd performance here and there that he has brought anything different? Where does the responsibility for that lie? Probably not with any one person, but again is the point not that continuing as-is has been proven to not work, changing things up is the next step to trying to improve things?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 882 ✭✭✭Lsdrugbyfan


    Sounds like Van Graan gameplan can't be successful without several imports in the tight 5..



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 4,999 Mod ✭✭✭✭Lost Ormond


    This. Exactly. Put in far better words than i have been trying. I dont see this coaching ticket doing anything more/better than they have. A change is needed if you want to see a better outcome in the season overall ie winning a trophy. Van Grann in charge will not see anything different in getting a trophy so why keep him



  • Subscribers, Paid Member Posts: 44,184 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    100% agreed

    especially this point

    Van Grann had never been a head coach before he took charge of Munster. Its showing.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 45,433 ✭✭✭✭thomond2006


    Sure, send us down your prop import then if you don't want him.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,320 ✭✭✭Teferi


    Now, now. Don't throw Salanoa out with the bath water.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,269 ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    We're about to be subjected to lists of who was born where, aren't we, just like bayern before....



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,269 ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    We need more Leinster home-grown players like.... eh, Salanoa?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,878 ✭✭✭RichieRich_89


    Who would actually replace van Graan? Larkham? Crowley? O'Gara? McNamara?

    If the tight 5 isn't quite good enough, my thinking would be that they should pick the most physical 6/8 combo possible to support them. 4. Kleyn, 5. Beirne, 6. Wycherley, 7. O'Mahony, 8. Coombes; 19. Ahern, 20. O'Donoghue/Hodnett. Physicality goes a long way in making a team difficult to beat. SA are the team with the best record versus NZ, after all.

    I can't see Munster winning a trophy with POM at blindside and JOD at openside.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,320 ✭✭✭Teferi




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 882 ✭✭✭Lsdrugbyfan


    they aren't winning anything with POM starting.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,269 ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    Neither was Schmidt tho, when he got the Leinster gig. I wouldn't hold that against him as a reason not to have hired him. (It might be a reason not to retain him, tho).

    I'm torn on Van Graan. We've seen some really good performances, like Toulon, Clermont and Racing but only in fits and spurts. We're trying to do the right thing at times, but the skill levels, accuracy and fluency just doesn't seem to be there. We've seen some good stuff in the league, but can't get beyond Leinster. He's been unlucky with injuries. We've been eliminated by the Tournament Winners in 6 of the 8 tournaments in the last 4 years. The other 2 times involved Racing, who got to the final both times.

    It's been a complete mixed bag. Overall tho, it's Larkham's 3rd season, I believe. I'd have expected to be seeing a bit more fluency in attack at this point.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,269 ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    It's a wonder Ireland were able to win anything with POM starting, then? POM isn't the issue, despite how much be gets sh*t on here at times.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 882 ✭✭✭Lsdrugbyfan


    Ireland arent going to win anything either if they have POM starting.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,269 ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    And we're off on a round of "pin the blame on POM" again...



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,878 ✭✭✭RichieRich_89


    His lack of oomph for a blindside is a bit of an issue, in my view. It means you're left selecting for physicality at openside to balance the backrow. That's not an ideal place to be, because opensides are generally the lightest forwards (along with hookers) and if you need them to be freakishly powerful then the options are going to be quite limited if they also have to possess the smarts to read the game really well, like an openside should. You're putting yourself in a position where you need a David Wallace or a Sean O'Brien or a Dan Leavy available.

    Personally, I think it would be better to consider O'Mahony at openside (he has the requisite smarts), and pick a bruiser at 6. Historically, there's no shortage of big bruisers who can play blindside at Munster.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,269 ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    This is exactly what's been happening, tho. He started 2 games at 6 and 2 at 7 for Ireland last year. He started more games at 7 for Munster last year.



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