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Brexit discussion thread XIV (Please read OP before posting)

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 7,938 ✭✭✭joeguevara


    When will anyone raise the fact that Rees Mogg stated that no trade agreement would be required with New Zealand. Or the fact that U.K. will have to rely on New Zealand trading standards which goes against U.K. deciding their own trade standards. Or the fact that no benefits are for U.K. farmers.


    have a look at the lies and bs at 11 minutes here https://youtu.be/DF3OQkWEyZA



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,829 ✭✭✭✭Strazdas


    She lied about the proposed Australia trade deal too. Announced on Twitter that it was "done", but now we find out it has completely stalled and nothing has been agreed.



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,829 ✭✭✭✭Strazdas


    It's been a quiet Brexit week but No.10 issued a statement tonight saying the ECJ must be removed from the Protocol : no softening of their stance at all it seems.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,644 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    Has the EU issued a time limit for accepting their new proposals on the workings of the NIP? Sure it is "take it or leave it" time, if UK gov still insists on no role for ECJ then is there is really nothing left to talk about.



  • Posts: 17,381 [Deleted User]


    What happens if there is no new agreement on the workings of it?

    Is it Article 16 or does the failure of the negotiation basically show that the NIP can never be implemented properly? Does this cascade down and make the WA and TCA fail?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,267 ✭✭✭fash


    There is no real "take it or leave it" insofar as the UK remains "within the lines" of the NI protocol process. It's just "keep on talking".



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,938 ✭✭✭joeguevara


    It would appear that the U.K. on the face of it believe that triggering Article 16 is a magic bullet that disapplies the entirety of the NIP. All it really does is commence further joint discussions to try and come to a solution. There is a procedure for each step I think set out in Annex 7.

    This palaver about wanting sovereignty sounds good for the egocentric Rule Brittania Brexit supporter and the bite your nose off to spite your face DUP member it cannot work in practice. The ECJ is required for the Single Market to work. There are alternatives such as Swiss model( I think) but if the U.K. go with that it makes their sovereignty argument implode.

    There is an alternative to completely rewrite massive bilateral agreement regarding dispute resolution but same issue.

    The thing that makes this a little nuts is the fact that the ECJ rarely is called to arbitrate cases as most are settled in National Courts. I think there was only 24 cases last year.

    The EUs offer of incredibly generous amendments was bit of a win for Frost and Boris and the EU while looking pragmatic was made to look brow beaten. It appears that this has toughened up their negotiation stance.

    So either Frost and Boris give up this sovereignty court stance or say fcuck it. Their lack of knowledge on NIP, GFA could finally be the almighty fcuck up trade tarriff wise. It also damages international reputation for compliance with International agreements. I really hope this doesn’t happen because it would be the first step of the cessation of peace in our country.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,267 ✭✭✭fash


    Article 16 just results in more negotiations - but at the end of which the UK ought to implement "bare minimum" measures to address a specific & concrete problem.

    In reality the UK is acting in bad faith (as demonstrated again by their repeated calls to remove the ECJ) - so in fact what the UK would do is simply ignore the protocol altogether.

    The "cascade down" depends really on how far the UK wishes to take its reneging on matters. The EU is entitled to terminate the TCA if it wants without reason - which it would at some point.

    Strictly speaking the WA cannot "fail" - the UK would be in breach of its international obligations.



  • Registered Users Posts: 22,108 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    When the EU offered very generous terms on NI it was basically calling the UK bluff and exposing their attempt to feign concern over the well bring of NI under the NIP

    The EU could have held firm but it would have just stretched out the process and no matter how many or few concessions the EU made on NIP the ECJ was always the real prize for the UK

    By the EU skipping the petty negotiations and just offering a very generous upgrade to the NIP the EU have demonstrated that the English do not give a sh1t about the NIP and have always been acting in bad faith. The people of Northern Ireland did not fail to notice this. Even some unionists are getting tired of bring used as pawns by Westminster and will appreciate that the EU are the side that actually want NI to succeed while Westminster are trying to sabotage them do they can use them as propaganda



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,267 ✭✭✭fash


    Yes it is both a "hearts and minds" thing for the people of Northern Ireland - and keeps all member states on side and unified - no EU member state will have sympathy for UK if/when they renege.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 7,938 ✭✭✭joeguevara


    I swear to God I think that the whole Brexit approach will be unveiled shortly as the biggest practical joke that ever has been. No satire comedy show could even begin to create what is pedalled out on a daily basis.

    But i think they have finally jumped the shark with their most recent policy to assist in HGV transportation. To make up for all the horrible immigrant HGV drivers that have ruined the fabric of real Britain they will replace with incarcerated prisoners.


    Here is one guy out on day release from prison at the request of the U.K. government to drive a truck for HMQ. And what crime is he currently serving a considerable for? yes, drug trafficking with a lorry.


    https://youtu.be/6n2bl95ptj8



  • Registered Users Posts: 27,939 ✭✭✭✭looksee


    And if you turn the sound up full to try and hear the very poor sound, be ready for your man laughing at the end.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,938 ✭✭✭joeguevara


    There is an original recording which was better but can’t seem to find it again. When I saw the original news item I thought it was a brass eye episode. I didn’t want to post something that possibly was a comedy creator editing cleverly.

    But this is fcucking for real! https://youtu.be/r8eT7-UWsj8



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,131 ✭✭✭Widdensushi


    Time for the UK to start taking prisoners from other countries, maybe Australia would return the favour for starters.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,254 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    I am not sure whether Brexit has gone from farce to parody or from parody to farce.

    Raab, who finds reading documents difficult, would rather have convicted criminals driving HGV vehicles than Eastern European qualified HGV drivers.

    When are the British public going to wake up from this nightmare and kick these bums out?



  • Registered Users Posts: 22,108 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    Their 'captive pool of potential workers'

    They've lost their minds

    Being a HGV driver is a highly regulated profession for very good reasons

    What next, reduce queues in the NHS by restoring doctors who gave been struck off for malpractice?

    The UK could be the first country to introduce the flipping Purge at this rate

    I actually do support policies to help offenders transition back into society but this is the Johnson Tories they're not going to do this safely or carefully, they're using the 'captive audience's to paper over the gaping cracks of their own incompetence



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,254 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    They might go for 'improving' the NHS by allowing the anti-vaxers and 'alternative medicine practitioners' free access to the NHS - shorten the queues by shortening the lives of those in the queues.



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,829 ✭✭✭✭Strazdas


    The funny thing is that Leave voters / Tories usually regard criminals and prisoners as the lowest of lows and have a zero tolerance approach - read any Daily Mail article and the comments underneath about criminals and sentencing etc. They'd nearly be in favour of public floggings (or worse).



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 36,787 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Brexit has forced many cultural conventions in this country to be turned onto their heads, perfectly exemplified by Johnson's "f*ck business" comment. Time was, that'd be a career-killing thing for a Tory to say.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



  • Registered Users Posts: 33,368 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    An extremely underappreciated comment. And a testament to the amplification of Empire 2.0 .

    I wonder can Australia insert this item into the trade deal. Similar to the NZ one where the UK will most likely get negative Growth.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,301 ✭✭✭Snickers Man



    Well, as even the rabidly pro-Brexit Daily Telegraph reported earlier this year when the UK and Australia signed a trade deal, although the fine detail was under headlines trumpeting a Major Victory that "Proved Remoaners Wrong"

    "The British wins don't stack up to much when compared with what Australia's negotiators secured....."

    and

    "It is a win that must have outstripped Australian negotiators' hopes and expectations. It is hard to shake the feeling that Britain may have given away too much too cheaply. ......it will be unforgivable if that mistake forms the blueprint for all the trade deals to follow. The Government will have to toughen up, wise up, and..be prepared to walk away from a bad deal if it wants to make a success of Brexit."

    You can find a fuller description here (https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117444245/#Comment_117444245)

    Britain is so determined to cosy back up to its Commonwealth cousins that it is making them offers they would be mad to refuse. Whether they have any long-term impact on farming in Britain or Ireland only time will tell. I find it hard to believe that NZ, literally at the other end of the world, could compete cost-effectively for fresh food with local farmers is a bit fanciful. But if they can, I suspect that British farmers will be more vociferous sooner about the detrimental effects on their business than will Irish farmers.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,254 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Brexit is bad for Irish farmers.

    The Irish problem is with beef, in particular the suckler herds. The majority of these farmers are part time with small herd numbers, and many are elderly bachelors soon to be out of the business. The profit for this business comes in the form of EU single farm payments and other hand outs. The beef is a premium product sold below cost. Also, 80% of the volume handled by beef processors is controlled by a handful of processors that are able to manipulate the market.

    This whole business requires a complete rethink - partly from an ecology/global climate point of view.



  • Registered Users Posts: 24,011 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    Not to get too far off topic but given that it's a second job for many and often only survives on the back of subsides then it seems clear that Brexit is only another of many many straws on the camel's back



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,254 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Well, yes.

    However, there is a major difference between suckler farmers who farm to make a profit but the market is against them, and the English hobby farmers like Jeremy Clarkson who farms over a 1,000 acres as a (non serious) past-time, knows nothing about farming and makes next to nothing out of it except subsides, but lives on his considerable earning from other (n0n-farming) sources.



  • Registered Users Posts: 24,011 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    Oh god ya I wasnt talking about Clarkson or anyone like that. I was thinking about farmers (usually with inherited farms) who do it to make an extra profit but could live off the full time job if the farm goes tits up



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,254 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    That might be true of some but many are elderly bachelors who live on very small incomes. These are the ones to be most likely to be forced out.

    The rules over inheriting farmland has become more onerous. The tax free regime only applies if you are qualified in agriculture.



  • Registered Users Posts: 24,011 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    I'm not trying to stop anyone from doing the job or taking away subsides just saying it definitely has huge problems before Brexit



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,935 ✭✭✭Glaceon


    You’d be surprised. My wife’s cousin in Oregon runs a restaurant. He apparently buys NZ beef because he can get it cheaper than American beef! The mind boggles.



  • Registered Users Posts: 24,011 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    Can't remember if it was here or the UK but somewhere I lived I was eating NZ lamb every week



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,157 ✭✭✭Good loser




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