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Killer Robots

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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators, Regional East Moderators, Regional Midlands Moderators, Regional Midwest Moderators, Regional Abroad Moderators, Regional North Mods, Regional West Moderators, Regional South East Moderators, Regional North East Moderators, Regional North West Moderators, Regional South Moderators Posts: 8,986 CMod ✭✭✭✭Fathom


    The ethics of warfare. How does drone warfare change the debate?


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators, Regional East Moderators, Regional Midlands Moderators, Regional Midwest Moderators, Regional Abroad Moderators, Regional North Mods, Regional West Moderators, Regional South East Moderators, Regional North East Moderators, Regional North West Moderators, Regional South Moderators Posts: 8,986 CMod ✭✭✭✭Fathom


    And for a bounce off the backwall... Free online classes from edX regarding Autonomous Robotics. "...to utilize artificial intelligence to perform more complex tasks, they help reduce the need for humans in both mundane activities and dangerous ones."


  • Registered Users Posts: 6 PeeJayIEee


    That which can be imagined by someone with scientific and/or engineering understanding but currently beyond current capabilities, will usually, eventually, be developed by someone, somewhere; and for every good intent and purpose there will be a juxaposing use for power and control.
    Science Fiction (not to be confused with the now almost ubiquitous, Science Fantasy) has most often been the reliable predictor of both sides of the coin. Ultimately and unfortunately, history illustrates that it is always too late. Luckily, there are often things that are not predicted, so mitigations can still be hoped for.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators, Regional East Moderators, Regional Midlands Moderators, Regional Midwest Moderators, Regional Abroad Moderators, Regional North Mods, Regional West Moderators, Regional South East Moderators, Regional North East Moderators, Regional North West Moderators, Regional South Moderators Posts: 8,986 CMod ✭✭✭✭Fathom


    PeeJayIEee wrote: »
    Science Fiction (not to be confused with the now almost ubiquitous, Science Fantasy) has most often been the reliable predictor of both sides of the coin. Ultimately and unfortunately, history illustrates that it is always too late. Luckily, there are often things that are not predicted, so mitigations can still be hoped for.
    Before science. Ancient Greek theater. "Deus Ex Machina" means "god from the machine."


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators, Regional East Moderators, Regional Midlands Moderators, Regional Midwest Moderators, Regional Abroad Moderators, Regional North Mods, Regional West Moderators, Regional South East Moderators, Regional North East Moderators, Regional North West Moderators, Regional South Moderators Posts: 8,986 CMod ✭✭✭✭Fathom


    Robot Development. "...develop sensorimotor and cognitive skills in robots." Free online classes from edX.


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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators, Regional East Moderators, Regional Midlands Moderators, Regional Midwest Moderators, Regional Abroad Moderators, Regional North Mods, Regional West Moderators, Regional South East Moderators, Regional North East Moderators, Regional North West Moderators, Regional South Moderators Posts: 8,986 CMod ✭✭✭✭Fathom


    Robot Development. Free online classes from edX.

    https://www.edx.org/course/developmental-robotics



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators, Regional East Moderators, Regional Midlands Moderators, Regional Midwest Moderators, Regional Abroad Moderators, Regional North Mods, Regional West Moderators, Regional South East Moderators, Regional North East Moderators, Regional North West Moderators, Regional South Moderators Posts: 8,986 CMod ✭✭✭✭Fathom




  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 90,656 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    Modern AI in a nutshell.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators, Regional East Moderators, Regional Midlands Moderators, Regional Midwest Moderators, Regional Abroad Moderators, Regional North Mods, Regional West Moderators, Regional South East Moderators, Regional North East Moderators, Regional North West Moderators, Regional South Moderators Posts: 8,986 CMod ✭✭✭✭Fathom


    Underactuated Robotics

    Algorithms for Walking, Running, Swimming, Flying, and Manipulation.

    Free online classes from edX.

    https://www.edx.org/course/underactuated-robotics-2?index=product&queryID=ef1fda0338809339be66dc9e44834b1c&position=1



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators, Regional East Moderators, Regional Midlands Moderators, Regional Midwest Moderators, Regional Abroad Moderators, Regional North Mods, Regional West Moderators, Regional South East Moderators, Regional North East Moderators, Regional North West Moderators, Regional South Moderators Posts: 8,986 CMod ✭✭✭✭Fathom


    Human-Robot Interaction

    Learn about human-robot interaction with edX's online human-robot interaction courses.

    Free online classes.

    https://www.edx.org/learn/human-robot-interaction



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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators, Regional East Moderators, Regional Midlands Moderators, Regional Midwest Moderators, Regional Abroad Moderators, Regional North Mods, Regional West Moderators, Regional South East Moderators, Regional North East Moderators, Regional North West Moderators, Regional South Moderators Posts: 8,986 CMod ✭✭✭✭Fathom


    The latest military robots in USA 2021 designed by Boston Dynamics.

    Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOUD-k4tElY



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 90,656 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    BBC Click episode https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m0012kd2/click-autonomous-weapons-a-threat-to-humanity

    AI and autonomous weaponry may be the biggest leap in military technology since the advent of nuclear weapons. Should they be banned? The debate is heating up.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators, Regional East Moderators, Regional Midlands Moderators, Regional Midwest Moderators, Regional Abroad Moderators, Regional North Mods, Regional West Moderators, Regional South East Moderators, Regional North East Moderators, Regional North West Moderators, Regional South Moderators Posts: 8,986 CMod ✭✭✭✭Fathom


    The military has always been a great source of research funding. They just got another increase to their budget. Often this research discovers and develops non-military inventions and innovations. Killer AI robots may also advance AI for peaceful outcomes.



  • Posts: 1,263 ✭✭✭[Deleted User]


    Strange thread. AI generated? :D

    Too much to dig into, and I am no fan of lethal autonomous robot systems, but when evaluating them, it's useful to compare killer robots against killer humans:

    A survey of US troops in Iraq at the height of the violence there found one-third of marines and one-quarter of soldiers saying that their leaders failed to tell them not to mistreat civilians.

    Another army survey in 2007 found that "only 38% of marines and 47% of soldiers said non-combatants should be treated with dignity and respect."

    More than one-third said torture of civilians was permissible to get information, and 17% viewed all civilians as insurgents.

    Attitudes among officers during the Vietnam War were similar.

    A survey of officer candidates in 1967 found half willing to use torture to get information, and a very large survey in 1970 found that 15% of officers and enlisted men did not comprehend the rules of war.

    Also remember that killer robots don't rape civlians or prisoners.

    Regarding humans in the loop it's not either-or, a killer robot can be programmed to operate within a kill limit, for example (max three targets, let's say, then no more).



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators, Regional East Moderators, Regional Midlands Moderators, Regional Midwest Moderators, Regional Abroad Moderators, Regional North Mods, Regional West Moderators, Regional South East Moderators, Regional North East Moderators, Regional North West Moderators, Regional South Moderators Posts: 8,986 CMod ✭✭✭✭Fathom


    AI and its precursors can be found in military platforms. More often than not they still sandwich a human between.



  • Posts: 1,263 ✭✭✭[Deleted User]



    Yes. They have to keep a human in there (or appear to) for legal, chain of command reasons. IMO, the most dangerous voices on these topics are those saying '[Insert name of enemy] is building fully autonomous weapons systems that pay no regard to international law, the Geneva conventions etc, so we are obligated to develop similar systems as a matter of security." Noel Sharkey from Belfast has done interesting work on the legalities and ethics killer robots. ICRAC (the group he co-founded) has managed to persuade some countries to get serious about the ethics of it all... talk of moritoriums and such.




  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators, Regional East Moderators, Regional Midlands Moderators, Regional Midwest Moderators, Regional Abroad Moderators, Regional North Mods, Regional West Moderators, Regional South East Moderators, Regional North East Moderators, Regional North West Moderators, Regional South Moderators Posts: 8,986 CMod ✭✭✭✭Fathom


    One of my profs worked with a technical institute at USC. They got a contract to research, analyze, develop, and mitigate human failures through interactive reality training simulation programs for US Naval task force aircraft carrier CICs. There were 5 different complex heavy AI defense systems that were synchronized. Their efficiency and effectiveness had been compromised by human error, both systematic and random. After simulation training, protocols and standards were met by humans in the sandwich. Human errors greatly reduced.

    This was a military R&D grant funded application. Later the USC institute applied similar reality training simulations to medical surgical operations where there had been many near misses historically. Many improvements resulted for surgeries after training. So the earlier military funded R&D later informed peaceful outcomes.



  • Posts: 1,263 ✭✭✭[Deleted User]


    Reminds me of the Heraclitus fragment, though he meant it a little more metaphorically - War is the father of all things

    I suppose those things include death, destruction, new medical insights and treatments, innovations in food processing and storage, new forms of transport, cutting edge torture techniques, new dimensions in satire, previously unheard wastage of human life, etc.



  • Posts: 1,263 ✭✭✭[Deleted User]


    If you haven't already, look up Patrick Lin.. ex-Navy, now a philosopher focused on the ethics of robotics systems from LARS to elder care robots, autonomous car trolley problem etc.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators, Regional East Moderators, Regional Midlands Moderators, Regional Midwest Moderators, Regional Abroad Moderators, Regional North Mods, Regional West Moderators, Regional South East Moderators, Regional North East Moderators, Regional North West Moderators, Regional South Moderators Posts: 8,986 CMod ✭✭✭✭Fathom


    Reminds me about a Jacques Derrida discussion we have frequented in our Philosophy forum. Especially regarding dichotomies that exhibit nominal either/or categorizations. Like true-false, good-evil, yes-no, 0-1 distinctions. Derrida suggests caution. These dichotomies may be misleading or distorted. Sometimes spurious. Natural phenomena tends to be more often complex, not simple. Killer robot and peaceful AI R&D observations may sometimes exhibit oversimplified dichotomy limitations.



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  • Posts: 1,263 ✭✭✭[Deleted User]


    Of course Derrida is right. Dualisms are oversimplifications. They have a tendency tend to loop back in on themselves endlessly, with no escape, which is why dialectic regarded by some as such a giant leap forward.

    Dualistic thinking is not necessarily good or evil (har har) in itself.. there are mystical traditions that rely a lot on dualistic ideation and can be very healthy and have a positive impact. Should the kind-hearted mystic be cautious about the dualism in their thinking because it is an oversimplification, despite the productive benefits of their thinking? (Only if they are doing philosophy.)

    You could even say that war itself, to get back on topic, despite being a creative force, is the ultimate expression of oversimplified dichotomy limitations.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators, Regional East Moderators, Regional Midlands Moderators, Regional Midwest Moderators, Regional Abroad Moderators, Regional North Mods, Regional West Moderators, Regional South East Moderators, Regional North East Moderators, Regional North West Moderators, Regional South Moderators Posts: 8,986 CMod ✭✭✭✭Fathom


    The human in the loop. The AI waits for a button to be pushed. Or two keys turned. Maybe the chain of command to decide. Perhaps someone is in the head. Or your comms are jammed by opponent. While the weapon rapidly closes distance to its target. You.



  • Posts: 1,263 ✭✭✭[Deleted User]


    Well that's a comforting thought. Although both human and AI sound like hindrances.. just release the cyber kraken and be done. :D



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 90,656 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    The Apollo moon landings resulted in major improvements in miniaturisation and quality control across US industries form the 1970's. Or look at the consumer technology that came out of Japan from the 1980's.

    Wars are expensive, there are cheaper ways to drive innovation.



  • Posts: 1,263 ✭✭✭[Deleted User]


    Agree completely. War is overall, a massive waste of energy and resources. I wasn't endorsing the position (which is a favourite among militarists and their lackeys), just noting that it reminded me of Heraclitus' pronouncement. The position has some value as a counterpoint to the universal statement that 'war/violence is always bad' but it is a mild counterpoint. More persuasive arguments in favor of military/violent action are found in struggles for 'freedom' around the world.

    Not sure it still applies, but last time I checked, private military contractors are allowed to use experimental weapons that regular US military cannot (for legal reasons). An example I was given was related to a 'technological advancement' in bullet design that causes extra harm to person and property. Blackwater (I believe, may have been another firm) were using them in Iraq with devastating effect. This is more typical of the type of technological advancement made by militarists.. and the US government can't openly endorse it. Strange world.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators, Regional East Moderators, Regional Midlands Moderators, Regional Midwest Moderators, Regional Abroad Moderators, Regional North Mods, Regional West Moderators, Regional South East Moderators, Regional North East Moderators, Regional North West Moderators, Regional South Moderators Posts: 8,986 CMod ✭✭✭✭Fathom


    Biden signed an increased military budget. Imagine there’s big bucks for advanced drones. And other (potential) killer robots. This drone technology can be used for peaceful applications. Like for research flying into storms. Or search and rescue, etc.



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 90,656 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    This ... technology can be used for peaceful applications.

    That's how they sell the idea. In previous generations almost all of the spend on AI was for self guiding missiles and smart bombs.



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 90,656 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    Just in case anyone thinks AI is ready for the real world.

    "As soon as we became aware of this error, we took swift action to fix it." How much action was taken to prevent ??



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    Any merit to fiction sci fi movies? Real Steal, Robots That Kill, Killer Robots, I Robot, Terminator 1-2-3-4, Matrix, Runaway, Death Machine, etc.



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