M20 - Cork to Limerick [preferred route chosen; in design - phase 3]

zetecescort · 06-10-2021 1:30pm

Apologies if it's off topic but isn't there a bypass planned to the north of Mallow? Will this go ahead regardless of any delays to the M20?

cjpm · 06-10-2021 1:55pm

It’s anyone’s guess. Would undoubtedly be cheaper to bundle it in with the M20 however there’s no guarantee that the M20 won’t be held up by dodgy objections.

touts · 06-10-2021 1:59pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117983522#Comment_117983522

After Eamonn Ryan's comments this week I think you can be fairly sure and An Taisce will set their storm troopers "The Friends of the Irish environment" on the case and it will be tied up in appeals for years.

Cookiemunster · 06-10-2021 2:36pm

Well hopefully by the time this gets to ABP the government will have streamlined the planning laws and made it more difficult to bring a judicial review.

Aontachtoir · 06-10-2021 4:00pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117983890#Comment_117983890

Given the way the Greens have FG and FF dancing to their tune, I would be pleasantly surprised if the overhaul of planning laws applies to road projects, but don't see much benefit to the Greens in agreeing to a review that makes roads easier to build.

I expect only carve-outs for housing and "sustainable infrastructure", with the definition of "sustainable" designed in such a way that it effectively excludes most road projects, and no significant change elsewhere.

Cookiemunster · 06-10-2021 4:17pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117984461#Comment_117984461

I'm curious as to how you see FF and FG dancing to the Greens tune. If the Greens actually had their way the M20 (and many other roads projects) would be dead in the water. If anything it looks to me like the Greens have gotten nothing more than face saving measures included in the NDP. There's nothing really in there, even from the rail side, that wasn't already announced previously.

The fact that infrastructural planning will hopefully become more streamlined doesn't mean that only infrastructural planning law is being reviewed. The overhauling of the laws will apply to the whole planning system. It's all unfit for purpose.

cjpm · 06-10-2021 4:32pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117983890#Comment_117983890

Pigs might fly more like. Have you ever seen an Irish Government actually get anything done. Commission a report and fudge.

06-10-2021 4:40pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117983890#Comment_117983890

So the answer to planning delays is the removal of rights? Likely to fail challenge per Aarhaus Convention

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/environment/environment_and_the_law/aarhus_convention.html

Be careful what you wish for, you might find an incinerator plonked beside your gaff

Anyway, the biggest issue with planning delays is lack of resources in the planning depts, courts, ABP etc. If these were staffed appropriately then the delays would be minimal

Cookiemunster · 06-10-2021 5:19pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117984633#Comment_117984633

Streamling the planning process and making it more difficult to take a judicial review does not automatically equate to the removal of rights. Other European countries are well able to follow Aarhaus Convention without all the ridiculous delays we have here.

Quite a lot of JRs taken in this country are NIMBYs using the AR as an excuse for their NIMBYism. The M28 debacle is a quite obvious example.

And I wouldn't actually be too bothered by an incinerator in my vicinity. Theyre seen as pretty normal in the rest of Europe.

KrisW1001 · 06-10-2021 5:41pm

Aarhus gives you the right to a legal review of decisions taken, but that does not have to specifically be a Judicial Review, which is usually concerned with errors in legal process.

If you brought such legal reviews into a normal planning process, and made them automatic for projects above a certain size, it would not only make it easier to predict how long the legal permissions process would take, but it also would reduce the possibilities of submitting spurious requests just to delay a project.

The root of the problem is an understaffing in ABP. Fix that, and large projects attracting lots of submissions (and 99% of these are genuine concerns from people who will be directly affected by the scheme in some way) can be processed quickly.

Pete_Cavan · 06-10-2021 5:55pm

I think these recent posts should be moved to the Planning delays to infrastructure thread

Aontachtoir · 06-10-2021 5:57pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117984921#Comment_117984921

I don't think understaffing at ABP is the root of the problem. It's one of the roots, definitely, but not the only one. The M28 was approved in just over a year (far too slow, obviously), but the real hold-up was in the judicial review process, which held up permission from July 2018 to March 2021. ABP could have delivered its decision in a day and the statutory process would still have dragged on for nearly three years.

The real root of the problem is that there are too many ways to slow down planning in this country. It has become a vetocracy, where anyone can stick their oar in and bring the process to a halt. We need a simple, streamlined decision process that delivers rapid, final decisions. Speed up ABP with more resources, definitely, but the legal avenues to overturn planning permission must be drastically narrowed and compressed into a shorter timeframe.

@Cookiemunster By "dancing to the Greens' tune" I mean that the other coalition parties have agreed to lock the M20 and other road projects behind a further set of arbitrary justification criteria, this time on climate, which seem intended to stall road projects to such an extent that they are never delivered, but are also never cancelled. Maybe it will not work out like that in practice.

hans aus dtschl · 06-10-2021 9:19pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117984999#Comment_117984999

I didn't see it that way regarding parties "dancing to the Green's tune, rather I also saw it the same way that Cookiemunster did, that the Greens got very little actually changed here, just wrapped their acceptance of the M20 in a little green veneer, in order to not lose too much face. I don't see how anyone, "green" or not can reasonably argue against the M20. I know lots of people who regularly submit against roads projects, who are fully accepting of the need for an M20. It's one of those road projects where the numbers just stack up.

I think it's not the "greens" or the "anti roads/cars" people but the NIMBY objections that have to be dealt with, where the M20 is concerned.

Aontachtoir · 07-10-2021 12:06am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117985839#Comment_117985839

I think @Cookiemunster and your interpretations are reasonable, but I really don't think the new "climate-positive projects only!" restriction is just going to fade away as quietly as you seem to think when the time comes to give the M20 the final go-ahead. It's a barrier which is clearly aimed at preventing road projects from proceeding, because even if the numbers add up from a safety and business point of view for the M20 (which they absolutely do), it is intended to arbitrarily tip the scales in the other direction. With carbon budgets soon being placed on departments, how hard do you think it will be for the Greens to say "oops, we'd love to build the M20, but there just isn't enough carbon in the budget for it?"

The problem with the "anti-roads/cars" people and the NIMBYs is that they both have the exact same power to delay and overturn planning permission, and both abuse that power heavily. There is no meaningful difference between them at the end of the day.

Cookiemunster · 07-10-2021 8:58am

The Greens won't be in government when it gets to the point that money needs to be made available to build this road. They've committed to allowing it through the planning process which will take us to the end of the term of this government.

07-10-2021 10:50am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117986834#Comment_117986834

which will take us to the end of the term of this government.

You'll be lucky if they have a route selected and designed by then

pajoguy · 07-10-2021 12:01pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117987311#Comment_117987311

They have run a design on all the corridors already to put costs on all the different options. it wouldn't be detailed designs but would give them a reasonable cost (unlike Eamon Ryans 1b to 3b jump in the last few months). It just gives them ideas of the cut and fills and road, river, rail crossings etc. They had a route selected already until the sustainable transport infrastructure policy updates were brought into play.

hans aus dtschl · 07-10-2021 12:20pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117986372#Comment_117986372

Yep you could be right but I sure hope you're wrong!

Maybe a way back around that "tactic" could be to heavily invest in the sustainable transport on the corridor, also.

David Tucker · 08-10-2021 11:22am

Hi

I really like user hibernicus map/sceenshot of munster on the previous page.

As we all agree, the problem is mallow and charleville, the opportunity is to create a munster economic area.

If we had the connectivity the wider area may develop around this corridor.

One example is that Shannon Airport is a real option for everybody and another is ringaskiddy and even rosslare (with a bit more connections) become viable ports

KrisW1001 · 08-10-2021 4:23pm

Extending Shannon Airport’s catchment down to Cork City is one of the goals for the Limerick City rail plan. That benefit also applies to the M20 to the same extent (i.e. not a lot, but it would help both airports to counterbalance the draw of Dublin if they were only an hour and a half apart from each other).

What’s holding Ringaskiddy back is N28. M28, when completed, will funnel traffic onto M8, so to make N20 an advantage, the N20/N8 link of the Cork Northern Ring needs to be done too. (M28 and M20 will probably complete around the same time)

M20 being there or not doesn’t affect Rosslare at all: if you’re going Rosslare-Cork or Rosslare-Limerick, there are more direct routes (N24 and N25, respectively). N24 will be fully upgraded in the same timeframe as M20.

cjpm · 09-10-2021 10:27am

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/fionnan-sheahans-n20-roadtrip-siren-blaring-the-ambulance-was-boxed-in-on-our-national-boreen-40932009.html

Sam Russell · 09-10-2021 11:12am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117996714#Comment_117996714

Unfortunately pay walled.

Limerick74 · 14-10-2021 1:47pm

Article in today's Limerick Leader ‘No verdict yet’ whether €1bn Limerick - Cork road will be full motorway - Limerick Leader

pajoguy · 14-10-2021 3:52pm

2 crashes this week on the N20 between patriskwell and O'Rourkes Cross

nordydan · 14-10-2021 4:14pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118019268#Comment_118019268

I think a lot of drivers would accept a Type 2 dual with some minor GSJ if construction was guaranteed

marno21 · 14-10-2021 5:59pm

Not sure what the farmers angle is here. Their land is going to be CPO’d no matter what the road standard is. The idea the existing road is going to be widened has been dismissed from day 1.

cjpm · 16-10-2021 1:56pm

I was reading that the Austrians and the Italians are boring 2 No. 110km long rail tunnels through the Alps. A project that will take 20 years and cost €8 billion euros.

Yes that’s right, tunnels through fractured rock and through a fault line between two plates. And all other access and maintenance tunnels included too.

Yet our Minister of Transport is peddling a lie that an 80km motorway through good quality farm land is going to cost us €3 billion. He’s a disgrace and his incompetence will harm the country