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M20 - Cork to Limerick [preferred route chosen; in design - phase 3]

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,374 ✭✭✭Hibernicis


    Do you have an attributable source for the statement that the Rail option will be a direct link at Limerick Junction or is this just your opinion ?

    Three options were brought forward from the phase one to phase two, Road Option D (from among the seven road options) and both Rail Options RS1 and RS2.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,374 ✭✭✭Hibernicis


    The statement is very negative from the perspective of anybody hoping for a motorway from Cork to Limerick. The decision has been kicked back by at least 4 - 5 months for no good reason and nowhere does it say that the additional time is to take account of "everyone's comments and concerns". Rather is says that the publication of the decision is being delayed "In anticipation of policy updates on sustainable transport infrastructure" which doesn't sound to me like good news for an end to end motorway. Rather it sets the scene for some watered down road improvement scheme with two or three town bypasses and some grandiose CIE/IIR over engineered rail nonsense.



  • Registered Users Posts: 292 ✭✭raindodger


    still could use the same route as far as croom and re engineer from there .

    you would only talking of about 15k of the route and probably find it would still tie in around patrickswell any way

    sorry about the rant but this thing is gone beyond ridiculous



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,376 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    The point is that once you change the scheme, you need to get planning again. The planning was granted for the whole thing, not multiple parts of it.

    It makes sense to re-visit the plans after nearly 20 years has gone by to make sure that the assumptions made then are still true. Also, the technologies and methods available now as opposed to the 12 years ago when building was supposed to begin may make it possible to do more with less money.

    I don’t like this delay, but at least a redesign delay is going to add something tangible to the project. It’s the delays in hearing planning appeals that I think we need to fix.





  • It’s the delays in hearing planning appeals that I think we need to fix.
    

    Only way you fix that is by staffing appropriately



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  • Registered Users Posts: 574 ✭✭✭Aontachtoir


    It's much more than the delays in hearing appeals. Look at the Galway bypass. Three years after planning permission was sought and it's still pending. The various appeals haven't even begun yet.

    Root-and-branch reform is needed. The regulatory hurdles for planning large infrastructure projects must be lowered, and ABP must be given the resources it needs to deliver a decision promptly. On the appeal side, we need dedicated planning courts with the resources to deliver rapid decisions, and a major hike in the difficulty level for achieving a judicial review of an ABP decision (ie, you must be personally affected by a project to be able to object). At the moment, recreational objectors can delay projects at the other end of the country for years, with no penalty if they lose. They need to be forced to put much more skin in the game.

    The government are making positive sounds about addressing these points because so many housing developments are being blocked, but it will take years.



  • Registered Users Posts: 292 ✭✭raindodger


    so frustrating thought we would see the route at least ,think the whole thing is just a big fudge until another excuse to shelve the whole thing



  • Registered Users Posts: 782 ✭✭✭mydiscworld


    I genuinely thought ye were messing when ye said it was delayed again



  • Registered Users Posts: 442 ✭✭Limerick74


    I assume you are aware that the M20 Cork - Limerick Motorway Scheme was withdrawn from planning before ABP decided? Therefore the 2010 scheme does not have planning.



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,013 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    Even if it did the NRA have only 12 months to serve CPO's after planning is granted. Planning only lasts 5 years anyway

    Slava Ukrainii



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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,856 ✭✭✭prunudo


    That 5 year rule shouldn't apply to major infrastructure projects.



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,013 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    You have 5 years to get started. As long as some progress has been made you can continue. However if you have nothing done you must get planning again.

    Slava Ukrainii





  • I don't see any reason why not. Besides an additional 5 year extension can be requested. If you can't start building the thing in 5-10 years then there are bigger issues at play which may make the item in question either redundant, surplus, unaffordable etc



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,376 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    I was not aware of that. Thanks for the clarification.



  • Registered Users Posts: 442 ✭✭Limerick74




  • Registered Users Posts: 6,856 ✭✭✭prunudo


    Thank you, made no sense to me that projects could be stalled pre planning on the off chance that it doesn't get started within 5 year, (10 with extension).



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,811 ✭✭✭Chris_5339762


    Yup. Varadker let it lapse when he was Minister for Transport because the government at the time couldn't afford the (substantial) CPOs involved. I don't think people on here realise what a bad decision that was, we were actually quite close to construction really.

    I'm generally a Varadker fan, but that is the single worst decision he has made IMO.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,057 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    I thought we all knew what a bad decision it was, on this particular thread! Plenty of us have moaned about it, myself included :D



  • Registered Users Posts: 442 ✭✭Limerick74


    There is technically no time limit on such infrastructure projects to commence (unless conditioned by the Board). For example, the N18 Oranmore to Gort was approved in 2007 and did not commence construction until 2015, and completed in 2017, as part of the N18 Gort to Tuam PPP project. I am sure there may be other examples that have taken longer to get to site.



  • Registered Users Posts: 145 ✭✭VeryOwl


    Yup. Let a bunch of stuff die. All he had to do was let them limp on a bit and give them what they needed to stay alive until funds were available. Which, frustratingly, they would be just a few short years later.

    I'm intrigued to see what's cooked up for M20... I would love a meaningful rail upgrade, and integration with sustainable planning at each terminus to sit hand-in-hand with the highway upgrade. If we have to suffer these delays there should at least be something to show for it.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 574 ✭✭✭Aontachtoir


    In fairness, the decision to shelve those projects was made at a Cabinet level by the government as a whole. It wasn't Varadkar going rogue. And it was for a good reason - even that small amount of money was literally not there, and the shots were being called by the people who were paying to keep the country running (and that wasn't the Irish taxpayer).

    I doubt we'll have much to show for this delay. Just a lot more time and money spent fulfilling all the new environmental and other planning regulations for the M20, and then defending the subsequent judicial reviews.



  • Registered Users Posts: 442 ✭✭Limerick74




  • Registered Users Posts: 6,260 ✭✭✭alias no.9


    That piece was thoroughly researched anyway.

    It's about 20 years since the N20 passed through Croom, nearly as long since it passed through Patrickswell and it never passed through Blarney, the current dual carriageway route passes closer to Blarney than the Old Mallow Road.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 11,745 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    With the NDP being announced in Cork, there's not a snowballs chance in hell that the M20 isn't included IMO.

    Post edited by Cookiemunster on


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,068 ✭✭✭Murph85


    The laughable thing is, he is trying to derail the metro line in Dublin, that would likely carry more passengers, than all rail combined including the luas. They need to build the m20 and Dublin rail projects. If that means canning other Mickey mouse road projects' so be it...

    Maybe if they hadnt let nearly all cars from post 2008 pay virtually no motor tax , they could easily fund all these vital projects that they constantly kick to touch, the first chance they get... I.e wait for downturn or uncertainty...



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,541 ✭✭✭snotboogie


    Optics would be terrible if they base the NDP announcement around the M20, given what's happened with Metrolink and the supposed Green agenda. I'd imagine its in Cork since Busconnects, Suburban Rail improvements and the Docklands infrastructure are funded. I don't see the M20 being excluded but I don't see it being shouted from the rooftops either.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 11,745 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    I didn't say the announcement would be based around the M20. But it's a big Cork issue and there's no way they'd launch the plan in Cork if it wasn't part of the plan.



  • Registered Users Posts: 771 ✭✭✭pajoguy


    Yes with the Taoiseach, Min of Public Exp and Min for Justice all in the Cork Area they would never not include it. I think when Q1 comes and the route selected is announced it will be at the forefront of the NDP.

    Route had been selected and ready for publishing in Sept



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,376 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    Ryan is not trying to derail MetroLink. He’s just being honest (odd for any politician, but may it continue...). The way things are, this project will not be delivered by 2027, and it will not be delivered on the original budget, and it will probably also be obstructed at every stage of the planning process.

    If anything, those comments would encourage people to look more closely at why these big capital projects end up taking so long. In the same week, we had Micheál Martin saying that the planning system was not fit for purpose and needed a full overhaul.

    I hope that this is a coordinated approach: a warning to other members of their respective parties that the days of using the appeals process to delay nationally essential schemes just to win over small pockets of local voters is coming to an end. (FF and FG have just as much to answer for as the Greens when it comes to killing big projects through delays)



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,288 ✭✭✭pigtown


    Is it really a big issue in Cork? I don't get the sense that it's as big an issue in Limerick



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