Yea its never simple is it? As soon as a word gets used more and more it moves far away from what it originally meant. The word "feminist" is a great one. I guess the moment a word moves from being a descriptive word to being used in any context as a slur - it starts quickly to lose its original meaning.
All I can do is say what _ I _ mean when I use it as I did above. Looking back at the first years of my pulling myself out of the "basement dweller" type into what I am today I would I guess have very much been MGTOW for sure. But I never heard that term or concept until years later. And I think even that term is now changing so I do not know if the 22 year old me would have identified with it as much as it is now compared to how it was earlier.
People might have called me an Incel back then too. No idea. But I threw away any illusion that my lack of interaction with girls/women was anything about girls/women or some attribute about me that women as a whole were somehow constitutionally against. I knew it was all about me - and I knew I had to sort myself out.
I presume most incels are pretty normal, functioning guys who are socially awkward and don't really get social interactions on some level or another. I can think of a couple of friends who have good jobs, earn well over the national median income, but just don't have that spark that makes them attractive to women. They're excellent mates and good fun to be around so I believe they would make great partners if they found the right woman, but they just don't have the chat for women.
But unless you plan to do something about the incels who are grand lads but don't have the chat aren't really going to grab any headlines. It's the few who are incels AND are also headbangers who think the world is out to get them, that will grab the headlines.
I don't have a problem with looking to help these lads. I just don't know what can realistically be done to help them.
Those guys you mentioned who are normal or whatever usually end up welded to some dreadful boring ugly chick and pussy whipped to death inside 20 minutes, which is probably a worse path in life than brazzers and pr0n etc. The heavy hitters probably end up in prison for being caught out as some kind of online chomo, or getting caught up in one of those to catch a predator YouTube spin-offs, or indeed making their own quietus via a towel on doorknob type situation.
The former lad could be a lot better off within a couple of tough and potentially scary decisions, and I think a lot of guys do make that jump at some point and kind of become more chill and alpha out of nowhere. The latter is a dangerous man with a tiny willy who aches to spread his wrath among the living. But in real life, not in some weird online game.
Helping the ones who genuinely deserve it feels - ikky too.
I mentioned on the forum a few times about a really great friend of ours. He was forever single. Went on dates that simply never worked out using things like Tinder. And we simply could not figure it out. He was a great catch. Lovely in many ways. Fairly attractive according to the gals around me. Always going totally out of his way for his friends. But he was failing so often he was slowly going "Incel" in the "The world is out to hate me and women are all against me" kind of way.
Wasn't until I took him speed dating that I saw a few issues in how he interacted with women as potential romances/sexual encounters that I actually saw the problem. Wouldn't have guessed at the issues until I saw him in "Action" and it all became clear. And he got no "hits" at all at the Speed Dating that night.
So I coached him and helped him in a few ways to deal with the things I saw. Thing he never saw in himself that it took someone outside him to notice and address. And it all worked out great in the end. He is now in a relationship after another speed dating session - where he got majority "hits" - and they seem mad about each other.
So being able to help such a guy wasn't the issue. But how it felt helping him is another issue. I extremely dislike the whole manipulative charlatan "PUA" movement. And working with a guy to help him up his game to attract women felt too much like that. It felt slimy. Now granted I was not coaching anything even remotely PUA like so my ikky feelings probably were not warranted in any way. But the PUA movement is so slimey and awful and abhorrent to me that I couldn't not feel ikky by proxy by even working in that same sphere at all.
All in all I am glad I helped the guy sort out a few things. As is he as he never stops expressing his gratitude. I never - ever - want to have to do anything like it again though.
I doubt it works like that in reality. I'd say most of them just adapt to being single or sort their problem out and meet a woman they can form a normal connection with. I'd say a very small percentage of them end up as any kind of deviants.
I would have thought it felt good to help someone improve their life. Not sure why it would feel icky as you put it.
He could have gone his entire life not able to attract women and thinking there was something wrong with himself when all that was needed was some minor adjustments.
Oh the helping part felt good. Still does.
It was just the thing that I was specifically helping him with that did not. I guess it just put me in the mind of the PUA people and I felt ikky by proxy. Coaching anyone in order to improve their chances of finding a partner has just been given a bad name by those people. Though much of PUA is about the guy manipulating the girl - while pretty much all I was doing was about the guy improving himself - it still felt like that whole "domain" to me and I did not like it.
I do not regret doing it. I just hope never to have to repeat the experience.
But like most things there is some really good stuff in PUA or NLP. Not the creepy stuff but some basic science of attraction, being relaxed, sitting and standing relatively straight, don't wear your sleeves over your hands, and some psychological techniques which promote liking such as encouraging the other person to talk and making the normal amount of eye contact and generally looking and behaving like you have the normal amount of pride in yourself. That's the bit I think the incel lads miss. If you don't look and behave like someone who has the normal amount of pride in and love for themselves and other people and they don't come across like someone who could easily be loved.
The PUA lads go off the deep end almost immediately talking about scripts and all that guff and they have a pretty disrespectful attitude to women which is setting up a pretty toxic environment for any relationship. But there are a few body language and behaviour things that are really good habits to adopt. The good parts are probably all contained in NLP. And the incel lads could benefit from adopting some of the techniques.
Thanks. I appreciate the effort. I like your idea about being better than you were yesterday. I've recently started swimming again. I used to swim competitively a million years ago and I've been frustrated at how crap I now am. I think I will follow your advice and add another couple of lengths each day. Cheers.
Or become deadly terrorists, wicked pederasts. Dangerous men!
Yeah the analogy I usually use is to nonsense diets like "Cayenne Pepper". Those fad diets are usually several layers of absolute nonsense built around a core of clearly sensible common sense things like eating unprocessed freshly cooked food and drinking water and so forth. PUA is a mess of manipulative and/or toxic tripe (like "negging" for example) built around a core of basic common sense like some of the things you describe above. And in fact posture was one of the very things I worked on with the guy I mentioned. The moment he entered into any interaction with a potential he shifted into this crossed armed head down leading forward posture that was a mixture of pre-emptive defeat and emotional closed off walls of self protection.
I dabble in books and the world of NLP myself actually - but usually more in the area of a supporting role for the close up magic and mentalism magic and other stuff stuff I do as a hobby. So probably in the more manipulative end of that sphere too a bit - though for entertainment more than exploitation.
Hah adding a whole length per day sounds like a lot to me but I have never been a great swimmer myself. Competent would probably be the word I would use for my swimming abilities. I am more in the area of running and combat training and martial arts movements or dance forms myself. I probably should be better at swimming. Strength and flexibility and endurance are not an issue for me which are all good for swimming too right? I guess I simply do not enjoy it all that much so I am not applied enough to get particularly good at it in terms of building up speed and/or distance.
I tend to gravitate towards forms of exercise/movement that is varied - and get turned off anything that I find too monotonous or repetitive. I could probably run a marathon happily along streets and forest paths. If I was on a running machine in a gym I would give up after 3km.
But whatever you are into - it is worth trying the "incremental method" as I call it. Doesn't work for everyone. Nothing ever does. But you can build up to great things slowly for sure if it works for you. And as I said before - setting smaller attainable goals is fulfilling in a way that setting sudden lofty goals and missing them is not. And I wonder how many people who give up do so not because they can not achieve what they want - but because the pleasure of setting and hitting goals was denied them by doing too much too soon.
Sure. Not likely, but possible I suppose.
We've had loads of bachelors in Ireland for hundreds of years and I can't think of many who turned to incel type terrorism, can you?
True, though in some way the game has changed. The interwebs and our hoovering up of US culture in too many things being two. Take that culture; in 1950's America there were far more guns and much more easy access to same and a fair few societal problems all societies are err too, with a few extra in the US, yet school shootings were not even close to a thing. Outside of criminal enterprises shooting sprees in general were vanishingly rare. Now thank whatever god we believe or don't believe in Irish society is not nearly as fractured on the edges as US society has become and like you I can't see too many incel type nutters kicking off here, but it would be slightly more of a concern than say 20 or 30 years ago. Though what has also increased and again much of it is an import is the fear mongering in media, social and traditional.
Few enough were innocent in the past, few enough are innocent in the present, we just don’t know why yet.
One thing I've noticed that doesn't help though is the characterisation of anyone who doesn't toe the line perfectly as an incel sure as **** ain't going to help. If someone suggests that maybe women have general preferences they're told that they don't and that they're a piece of **** who needs to sort their life out. While also, funnily enough, seeming to downplay women's agency.
If I suggest, for example, that the main reason I don't do well in online dating is because I'm fat I'm told that's not it and that if I don't change my mind then I'm bitter and hate women. Despite the fact that I haven't even mentioned women. People are entitled to preferences and more power to them. Or maybe I'm "externalising" the issue, and blaming everyone else. That's another great one, blame. Why people feel the need to ascribe that to everything.
I'd get single digit matches over the course of a year on Tinder despite swiping right without looking. Yet if I suggest that my appearance was the main thing causing the low success rate to a female friend they'd instantly jump down my throat.
And yeah, I'll probably get the "Oh well you took the time to type all that, you must be angry/bitter/raging" BS reply for this post. I'm too far past caring about it to get angry. I have my dog, my new car, live in a house on my own, don't drink, don't have a drug or gambling problem but little of that seems to matter to the ladies. It's all that matters to me though.
Ahh well.. I can sympathise with Incels somewhat when it comes to experiences with women (in general) because there are heaps of double standards in society, which is exasperated by the Internet... but also the feminist or "rights" movements over the last few decades. There's a lot of emphasis placed on what men (as a gender) do, and their responsibilities in society. Gender stereotypes are very much accepted when applied to men, but it's horrible to reinforce them for women.
I'm a member of a few mailing lists which friends asked to join. Mostly these would be lists similar to the scope of the MTGOW category, and it's horrifying the range of abuse and mistreatment many guys have experienced both from women, but also from society as result of that experience. Naturally, a grain of salt is needed with such stories, but even so, it's pretty appalling how often these negative experiences seem to crop up. There's a lot of inequalities in many western societies, although the US really takes the biscuit with this one... and it's getting worse all the time.
I'd say the problem with incels and such, is that when men get angry, they get aggressive. When women get angry, they, typically, just complain more.
I am dipping into an idea for a screenplay, a super obese incel who kills famous chicks. The crazy turnaround dip in or out moment is he's actually a genius who went to MIT for theoretical physics or some kind of weird gay number stuff like that. And his mom is totally in on the whole gig, he shoots up naked in her house and she's chill with that plus she covers for him with the police. That's about all I have so far, apart from an opening scene where a famous chick turns on the lights in her kitchen and he's there outside much akin to the killer in the movie the strangers. Think of it like the open scene of scream but with a crazy super obese incel.
I think the crazy turnaround needs improvement - a lot of incels probbaly have that kind of background. Make him a hippie artist or something - THAT would be a twist...
Jordan Peterson. It's all making sense now.
There's a big, big difference between an Incel and someone who just is perpetually single. I think this thread is going down the route of throwing all bachelors into the Incel category and that's grossly unfair.
There are people who just don't make those connections for all sorts of reasons from never finding the right person, to being quite asexual and having low sex drives and all sorts of reasons.
Some people are very happy being single and don't necessarily have a desire to partnered up all the time. They can often be extremely balanced and not at all weird. They don't all suddenly turn into Incels, or somehow become dangerous.
Many are just content to be single.
This Incel thing is, from what I can see, is another one of these online bubbles of narcissism, entitlement and a victim narrative. They're just a group of very bitter individuals who've found a label and a community to amplify and support their bitterness and seem to turn that into very nasty stuff aimed at women or wider society.
(Account closed by user)
Pretty much. He was a positive force when he first arrived on the scene, but now he's based his whole life around his Internet/Public persona, and he's got too much skin in the game to avoid dabbling too much and enabling the pathetic attitudes that makes him "needed". TBH I'd be careful about anything that comes from psychology now, since it's a major industry that profits too much from the suffering of others, and has too many connections with the pharma companies.
I've listened to JP recently and it's all meh. Some obvious sensible ideas but he sold out.
How so? I'm a Bachelor in my mid 40s, and I love my lifestyle. Didn't get the impression you express above about the thread. There are real problems to dating culture in modern society though, and the double standards that exist between the genders. But being a bachelor with the right mindset is a lot of fun, and is rather healthy.
There are some expressing that opinion further back up the thread.
I get what you mean about lumping all the bachelors into the incel group. I don't do that myself, but imagine some people do it.
But you can see he difference between someone who is happy on his own as a single bloke, and someone whose a bit bitter and twisted at women or the system or biology whatever. Some of them come across as just unpleasant people. The kind of people you wouldn't want to be around. They complain about their height or being fat or unattractive or whatever else, but I think they totally underestimate the importance of being fun and interesting to be around and not having a general attitude that stinks to high heaven.
They complain about the system and external things, but rarely talk about the things that are totally within their control like being a bit of craic.
I think though it’s just part of a whole raft of groups online that seem to spend their time being angry.
Also there’s a thread rolling through some very toxic bubbles that’s very much about lashing out at the world because of a perceived slight and it just amplifies and echoes in those groups.
You’re seeing that across a lot of radicalised groups and individuals online. It’s the common denominator of many of those phenomena.
I remember reading an anthropology book years ago which posited that the IRA drew in some people who might otherwise have been serial killers acting alone.
The virus made me do it
Ahh ok. A few posters... not the general attitude of the thread then.