Hurling- what’s gone wrong and where do we go from here.

Sunny Disposition · 09-06-2021 11:38pm

Just read something on RTÉ.ie with Shefflin talking about the ball. But surely the size of the bas is an elephant in the room. If the rules are clearly being broken and it is a big factor in the destruction of the game surely it should be called out by the pundits?

Pogue eile · 10-06-2021 8:05am

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

Just read something on RTÉ.ie with Shefflin talking about the ball. But surely the size of the bas is an elephant in the room. If the rules are clearly being broken and it is a big factor in the destruction of the game surely it should be called out by the pundits?

That is only your personal opinion.

I think you are being a little over dramatic here, but again that is just my personal opinion.

breezy1985 · 10-06-2021 9:35am

leath_dub wrote: »

That picture is a tiny bit misleading given the way the hurleys are lined up but it's still a big leap. Now that it has become a topic hopefully the rule is looked at and a new limit set. 13cm is a little drastic but maybe a few cm above that with proper enforcement

Torcaill · 10-06-2021 9:46am

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

What would happen I wonder if the winning point in a high-profile tv game was scored with a 15cm hurl, and the losing manager then asked the referee to inspect the equipment? In many sports using illegal equipment would be grounds for a disqualification or at least a replay.

It is not the role of the referee to measure the size of the hurl. You can hardly expect him to have a measuring tape in his back pocket either!

breezy1985 · 10-06-2021 9:52am

Torcaill wrote: »

It is not the role of the referee to measure the size of the hurl. You can hardly expect him to have a measuring tape in his back pocket either!

Have a yoke like the Ryanair bag checker at the entrance to the pitch

somespud · 10-06-2021 9:53am

Sports gear/equipment is always developing, its in every sport. Should the composite hurley be banned because its claim that it can strike the sloitar further, do we get to a situation where it would be like Ryanair with a gadget on the side of the pitch that a hurley would have to pass through, sloitars, goalkeeper hurleys, helmets, gps trackers?

Dyr · 10-06-2021 9:58am

somespud wrote: »

Sports gear/equipment is always developing, its in every sport. Should the composite hurley be banned because its claim that it can strike the sloitar further, do we get to a situation where it would be like Ryanair with a gadget on the side of the pitch that a hurley would have to pass through, sloitars, goalkeeper hurleys, helmets, gps trackers?

Sports equipment nearly always has specifications laid down in the rules, this is the case in hurling and its been ignored. All you need to do is enforce the rules.

With a ruler.

breezy1985 · 10-06-2021 10:01am

somespud wrote: »

Sports gear/equipment is always developing, its in every sport. Should the composite hurley be banned because its claim that it can strike the sloitar further, do we get to a situation where it would be like Ryanair with a gadget on the side of the pitch that a hurley would have to pass through, sloitars, goalkeeper hurleys, helmets, gps trackers?

Most sports that involve equipment do have regulations though. Cycling has a ton involving both the bike and clothing. A lot of it came in in the 90s where it got to the point that bikes didn't look like bikes anymore. Swimming and tennis both have uniform regulations and I'm sure but not 100% that most racket or stick games have regulations too.

As for material I have never used a composite Hurley but my school had those fibreglass ones and they were way more dangerous when you got a smack of one so some limitations should apply

somespud · 10-06-2021 10:29am

Yes agree within regulation, but it still doesn't stop development that makes equipment better, what I'm saying is that in 10 years time we could have the same conversation, players develop, equipment develops, sports science develops, what will and is happening is that teams and tactics will start to emerge to counteract the opposition (within the rules) and thus prevent some of these long range points.

Sunny Disposition · 10-06-2021 10:48am

Torcaill wrote: »

It is not the role of the referee to measure the size of the hurl. You can hardly expect him to have a measuring tape in his back pocket either!

I think that'd be less difficult than it seems. At every level of soccer your studs get checked. Boxers have their gloves inspected by referee and opposition corner men. The hurling refs would make a call on anything dodgy and if there's a dispute then measure the hurley. The problem would go away quickly if everyone knew it couldn't be got around.
It's a real GAA thing, maybe an Irish thing, try and get around rules rather than do your best within them.
The GAA's attitude to regulation is typical of the Irish approach too, there's generally an attitude of letting things go until there's a lot of complaints and there's an issue. Internally in the Gardai things like quashing penalty points were tolerated for years, the financial regulator largely let financial institutions regulate themselves. The Irish Data Commissioner which was a Watchdog for Facebook and Google was in a tiny office next to a Centra, reflecting its status.

Lost Ormond · 10-06-2021 10:57am

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

What would happen I wonder if the winning point in a high-profile tv game was scored with a 15cm hurl, and the losing manager then asked the referee to inspect the equipment? In many sports using illegal equipment would be grounds for a disqualification or at least a replay.

Well it couldnt happen retrospectively....

Bambi wrote: »

Jesus no.

Leave that zonal, situational nonsense to stuff like rugby, just create rules that force players utilise skill.

Why the dig at rugby. bit unnecessary....

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

I think that'd be less difficult than it seems. At every level of soccer your studs get checked. Boxers have their gloves inspected by referee and opposition corner men. The hurling refs would make a call on anything dodgy and if there's a dispute then measure the hurley. The problem would go away quickly if everyone knew it couldn't be got around.
It's a real GAA thing, maybe an Irish thing, try and get around rules rather than do your best within them.
The GAA's attitude to regulation is typical of the Irish approach too, there's generally an attitude of letting things go until there's a lot of complaints and there's an issue. Internally in the Gardai things like quashing penalty points were tolerated for years, the financial regulator largely let financial institutions regulate themselves. The Irish Data Commissioner which was a Watchdog for Facebook and Google was in a tiny office next to a Centra, reflecting its status.

Yeah its not difficult at all. In rugby and soccer as you say every players studs are checked. If too long, a stud is missing then they need to get different studs or different boots in order to play.
this is where umpires, linesmen come in as well and they help ensure during the game that these rules are maintained.

Sunny Disposition · 10-06-2021 10:59am

somespud wrote: »

Yes agree within regulation, but it still doesn't stop development that makes equipment better, what I'm saying is that in 10 years time we could have the same conversation, players develop, equipment develops, sports science develops, what will and is happening is that teams and tactics will start to emerge to counteract the opposition (within the rules) and thus prevent some of these long range points.

Sure, equipment and and preparation is always improving, but rules and enforcement has to move on too. It happens in other sports as well, boxing had to go from 15 rounds to 12, tennis had to change the ball, golf changed the regulations around the broomhandle putter, soccer changed the offside and backpass rules.

As it stands now there is an almost total non compliance with the regulation on the size of the hurley bas, and that coupled with the current ball has changed the game quite dramatically. Some adjustment is required from the GAA to deal with this.

Sunny Disposition · 10-06-2021 11:02am

Lost Ormond wrote: »

Well it couldnt happen retrospectively....

Why the dig at rugby. bit unnecessary....

Yeah its not difficult at all. In rugby and soccer as you say every players studs are checked. If too long, a stud is missing then they need to get different studs or different boots in order to play.
this is where umpires, linesmen come in as well and they help ensure during the game that these rules are maintained.

It wouldn't be difficult, but it would be very disruptive if done overnight. But the GAA should get in front of it and give a date from when enforcement will start.
Football has improved quite a lot as a game over the last couple of years, and a big part of that has been the changes in rules. Hopefully hurling can follow.

ArmaniJeanss · 10-06-2021 11:03am

Torcaill wrote: »

It is not the role of the referee to measure the size of the hurl. You can hardly expect him to have a measuring tape in his back pocket either!

Well, as I understand it, it is the referee's role to check quite a lot of the equipment - they should be checking for things like correct nets & pitch markings before the game. Helmets are now compulsory (they weren't in my day) so I wonder if this is in the remit of the referee as well? Do they check players studs (maybe that was just a soccer ref thing that I'm remembering). I'm just establishing here that there are precedents for them checking similar things.

You say its not the role of the ref to measure the hurl - is this a specific exclusion in the rules or do you just mean it's become accepted that it's something that the referee doesn't bother it? Subtle difference there really.

As for the ref not being expected to carry a measuring tape. Well in fairness it would hardly be onerous to add it to the pens, notebook, cards, watches & whistle that they already bring.

Maybe some All-Ireland final referee will take the bull by the horns and go into both dressing rooms pre-match confiscating non-compliant hurls. Would be quite fun.

Dyr · 10-06-2021 11:04am

Lost Ormond wrote: »

Well it couldnt happen retrospectively....

Why the dig at rugby. bit unnecessary....

Because there is little to no skill involved in throwing a ball to each other and thus Rugby had to come up with situational and positional rules to try make the game in some way meanginful. Not a road hurling should go down. The rules should promote the skill, tossing a sliotar to the hand is not where the skill is.

Pogue eile · 10-06-2021 11:07am

Bambi wrote: »

Because there is little to no skill involved in throwing a ball to each other and thus Rugby had to come up with situational and positional rules to try make the game in some way meanginful. Not a road hurling should go down. The rules should promote the skill, tossing a sliotar to the hand is not where the skill is.

Plenty of skill in a well executed and well timed hand pass - Noel McGraths no look over the shoulder hand pass to Lar Corbett in the 2010 final is still one of the finest things I have ever seen on a hurling field. Let's not throw the baby out with the bath water!

Dyr · 10-06-2021 11:21am

Pogue eile wrote: »

Plenty of skill in a well executed and well timed hand pass - Noel McGraths no look over the shoulder hand pass to Lar Corbett in the 2010 final is still one of the finest things I have ever seen on a hurling field. Let's not throw the baby out with the bath water!

And where was the skill? McGrath handpassing it over the shoulder or Lar just catching it? This rule change wouldn't have stopped that sweet handpass.

Don't mistake bathwater for babies

randd1 · 10-06-2021 11:22am

Pogue eile wrote: »

Plenty of skill in a well executed and well timed hand pass - Noel McGraths no look over the shoulder hand pass to Lar Corbett in the 2010 final is still one of the finest things I have ever seen on a hurling field. Let's not throw the baby out with the bath water!

When the handpass comes from the ball released from the hand, ban the team-mate from catching it.

So basically;
- When the ball is released from hand and passed (or more often thrown these days), the ball has to either hit the ground or be controlled on the hurl before a team-mate takes into his hand
- A direct first time hand pass can be caught by a team-mate
- A first time hand pass where the ball is taken off the hurl can be caught by a team-mate

Doesn't remove the hand pass released from the hand or its uses, just the ability of a team-mate to catch it. Can help cut down on the thrown pass which is everywhere in the sport, and hopefully create a more open game-play.

breezy1985 · 10-06-2021 11:31am

I don't know why so many people hate the hand pass. I love watching how teams move the ball about now

Pogue eile · 10-06-2021 11:36am

Bambi wrote: »

And where was the skill? McGrath handpassing it over the shoulder or Lar just catching it? This rule change wouldn't have stopped that sweet handpass.

Don't mistake bathwater for babies

What rule change are we talking about here?

somespud · 10-06-2021 11:37am

The one thing I wouldn't change is the weight of the sloitar mainly for safety reasons and maybe that is why it has developed over the years, safety is not confined players it also has to take into account of spectators. We have situations especially the pre match puck arounds when 4 or 5 sloitars can be raining down on the terraces from all angles at one time, I'd hate to be hit with anything heavier.

randd1 · 10-06-2021 11:44am

breezy1985 wrote: »

I don't know why so many people hate the hand pass. I love watching how teams move the ball about now

They hate it because;

- Teams rarely actually hand pass it these days, it's nearly all throws.
- It takes the contest out of hurling. It has more in common with a sprint relay in the Olympics than one of the most aggressive field sports in the world.

breezy1985 · 10-06-2021 11:48am

randd1 wrote: »

They hate it because;

- Teams rarely actually hand pass it these days, it's nearly all throws.
- It takes the contest out of hurling. It has more in common with a sprint relay in the Olympics than one of the most aggressive field sports in the world.

I agree that throwing it should be clamped down on. But this idea that it takes any skill or contest out of the game I don't get. It hasn't made any difference to my enjoyment of the game and moving the ball while keeping possession is much more of a skill than lumping it down the pitch for a 50/50 catch

Dyr · 10-06-2021 11:50am

Pogue eile wrote: »

What rule change are we talking about here?

A handpass can't be caught, must be taken on the hurl

Treble double · 10-06-2021 11:54am

It would be very interesting to see a game played by too current top county teams with regulation sliothars and hurls.
Just say for example if they were given the off season to prepare with the regulation equipment and used it in the leauge, I think the modern hurler would adapt well because of the amount of time they put into the skills of the game and the real sticks men would flourish.
I have no doubt it would dramatically cut down in the distance points are scored from and would mean the ball is in play more often as it would have to be worked nearer the opposition goal to be sure of getting a more accurate strike. You would also see a few shots dropping short in around the square which would also create more excitement.
I would definitely pay a few bob to see the modern lads going at it with regulation gear.

breezy1985 · 10-06-2021 11:56am

Treble double wrote: »

It would be very interesting to see a game played by too current top county teams with regulation sliothars and hurls.
Just say for example if they were given the off season to prepare with the regulation equipment and used it in the leauge, I think the modern hurler would adapt well because of the amount of time they put into the skills of the game and the real sticks men would flourish.
I have no doubt it would dramatically cut down in the distance points are scored from and would mean the ball is in play more often as it would have to be worked nearer the opposition goal to be sure of getting a more accurate strike. You would also see a few shots dropping short in around the square which would also create more excitement.
I would definitely pay a few bob to see the modern lads going at it with regulation gear.

The problem for most people if you done this is Limerick would still be the best team in the country

randd1 · 10-06-2021 11:57am

breezy1985 wrote: »

I agree that throwing it should be clamped down on. But this idea that it takes any skill or contest out of the game I don't get. It hasn't made any difference to my enjoyment of the game and moving the ball while keeping possession is much more of a skill than lumping it down the pitch for a 50/50 catch

It most definitely takes the contest out of the game.

It's smarter hurling no doubt, and highly skilful.

But it's not better to watch in my view because there's less tackles, hooks, blocks, physical contact, in other words there's less contest in the game.

Lads throwing the ball around each other, the game stopping every 20 seconds for a score/free/wide and hardly any tackling? Clever, but not great hurling for me.

breezy1985 · 10-06-2021 12:00pm

randd1 wrote: »

It most definitely takes the contest out of the game.

It's smarter hurling no doubt, and highly skilful.

But it's not better to watch in my view because there's less tackles, hooks, blocks, physical contact, in other words there's less contest in the game.

Lads throwing the ball around each other, the game stopping every 20 seconds for a score/free/wide and hardly any tackling? Clever, but not great hurling for me.

Hardly any tackling but yet only a few weeks ago over on the league thread people were obsessed with the amount of contact going on especially with Limericks "football style" defending. Don't know what games you are watching but the ones I watch are full of contact and the hand passing increases not decreases the time the balls in play

Pogue eile · 10-06-2021 12:01pm

Bambi wrote: »

A handpass can't be caught, must be taken on the hurl

Ah ok I thought you were advocating getting rid altogether.

I have to say it is a very interesting proposal and at first glance I like it, could be a very good move. it definitely merits at least consideration.

Torcaill · 10-06-2021 2:31pm

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Well, as I understand it, it is the referee's role to check quite a lot of the equipment - they should be checking for things like correct nets & pitch markings before the game. Helmets are now compulsory (they weren't in my day) so I wonder if this is in the remit of the referee as well? Do they check players studs (maybe that was just a soccer ref thing that I'm remembering). I'm just establishing here that there are precedents for them checking similar things.

You say its not the role of the ref to measure the hurl - is this a specific exclusion in the rules or do you just mean it's become accepted that it's something that the referee doesn't bother it? Subtle difference there really.

As for the ref not being expected to carry a measuring tape. Well in fairness it would hardly be onerous to add it to the pens, notebook, cards, watches & whistle that they already bring.

Maybe some All-Ireland final referee will take the bull by the horns and go into both dressing rooms pre-match confiscating non-compliant hurls. Would be quite fun.

As the rule book currently stands, it is not the duty of the ref to check the equipment as such. If they become aware of a hurl with a loose band, then yes, they can ask that the hurl be replaced.

It is not their in their duties to inspect pitch markings, nets, etc. If they believe that they are not in order they report the matter.

Re helmets, they are expected to take action on helmets with missing bars. But how often is this done??

Nothing in the rule book about checking studs, whether it be missing studs or the length of them.

Rule book quotes the hurl size but nothing about policing it. Do you honestly expect the ref to have a measuring tape?? if so, what else should they have??

I am not standing over the rule book at all. It clearly needs a proper overhaul and until that is done don't expect any movement on this issue.

What role is the sweeper playing in the game? It creates the spare man up the other end of the pitch and the time for a player to take the long distant shots. God be with the days when it was man on man and players didn't have as much time on the ball!!!

Hurling- what’s gone wrong and where do we go from here.

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