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Vaccine Megathread No 2 - Read OP before posting

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Comments

  • #272
    Cork2021
    Registered Users Posts: 2,259 ✭✭✭Cork2021


    ACitizenErased wrote: »
    From my GP in Cork City. About 50-60 people here both waiting before and after their jabs and they’re flying through it, got it bang on time.

    Excellent, have been hearing rumours that Cork City and county are ploughing through vaccines! Pity we don’t have county by county stats


  • #273
    Cork2021
    Registered Users Posts: 2,259 ✭✭✭Cork2021


    ACitizenErased wrote: »
    From my GP in Cork City. About 50-60 people here both waiting before and after their jabs and they’re flying through it, got it bang on time.

    Excellent, have been hearing rumours that Cork City and county are ploughing through vaccines! Pity we don’t have county by county stats


  • #274
    Hurrache
    Registered Users Posts: 10,146 ✭✭✭✭Hurrache


    Micky 32 wrote: »
    No, the media should be called out.

    On reporting, or just reporting stuff you don't want to know about or agree with? In pretty sure it's the latter for yourself.

    Your reaction, and others, is a bit hysterical, particularly when you give little credit to the general public who read such things. By and large they don't need their hands held and surprisingly have their own critical thinking.

    To go down your road you'd be advocating the banning of the red tops, something I can get behind in fairness for other reasons, as I don't want to know anything about what they call stories and a lot of their crap has little basis in reality.


  • #275
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭[Deleted User]


    Micky 32 wrote: »
    When you get headlines saying “ Indian Variant will spread easily even among vaccinated “ doesn’t send a good message to people who are on the fence about getting the vaccine. They could say “ what’s the point if it still spreads so easily even when vaccinated “

    that's where disinformation becomes a duty of care to the public issue really, he needs sacking that idiot! or a year on salvarsan...
    he's looking to undermine public health now at this stage but why do the media court him?


  • #276
    Furze99
    Registered Users Posts: 10,202 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    Polar101 wrote: »
    Not commenting whether the strategy is a good one or not.

    - The option would have been to wait until more Pfizer supplies arrive - that would have left the higher risk groups without any vaccine at all for weeks longer.
    - AZ/J&J are age limited, so not using them would have delayed the program even more
    - Assuming you're talking about the Indian variant, well that data wasn't available 1-2 months ago.

    When they planned this vaccination strategy / time schedule - it was clearly evident that this mismatch in being 'fully vaccinated' would arise between their age cohorts and decisions on vaccines.

    They would also have been aware of the possibility if not existence of more resistant strains. So that's no excuse either. It would appear that the strategy was based more on the optics of using up available vaccines as much as actual risks to public health.

    Of course, strategy may change and those who've been given AZ may be called backed more quickly. As it stands, there's a lot of people who've been given AZ who ain't going to be very happy in the coming weeks when they cop on fully that they were sold a pup in terms of PR.


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  • #277
    mikeorange
    Site Banned Posts: 58 ✭✭mikeorange


    Hmmzis wrote: »
    The difference on a population level would be in the ratio of vaccinated people required to avoid epidemic growth of case numbers and hospitalizations. In both cases outbreaks are still possible, but the limit of where they cannot be naturally sustained would be different for the two vaccine approaches.

    If worst comes to worst and a Seychelles type scenario takes place here due to the Indian variant and infections rise massively in vaccinated people but they don't get very sick, very few needing hospilisations as a total percentage of cases, is it not better to just let the virus run it's course and let people get immunity naturally with the vaccine's helping massively to prevent hospilisation.

    In my own opinion I think the vaccine's should compliment the bodies immune system and we should not even care about cases number if hospilisations are managable

    I personally think we will have to go with that approach and let the Indian variant or whatever variant it will be that reduces efficacy to below 50%, but doesn't reduce effictiveness to severe illness rip through the population and build t cell memory. These generation vaccine's should be good to protect against massive hospitalisations but might not be good enough to stop transmission, gen 2 or 3 vaccine's will probably be the one's to stop transmission to all variant's. This is where the scientists have to set realistic expectations for the governments


  • #278
    Micky 32
    Registered Users Posts: 6,556 ✭✭✭Micky 32


    Hurrache wrote: »
    On reporting, or just reporting stuff you don't want to know about or agree with? In pretty sure it's the latter for yourself.

    Your reaction, and others, is a bit hysterical, particularly when you give little credit to the general public who read such things. By and large they don't need their hands held and surprisingly have their own critical thinking.

    To go down your road you'd be advocating the banning of the red tops, something I can get behind in fairness for other reasons, as I don't want to know anything about what they call stories and a lot of their crap has little basis in reality.

    Reaction? Lol. Who said anything about banning anything? But i do understand people probably have a need for dramatic inflated headlines.

    On Saturday i had someone say to me vaccines are useless because they don’t work on the indian variant that’s going to take over. Now i wonder where she got that idea from? :rolleyes:


  • #279
    RavenBea17b
    Registered Users Posts: 318 ✭✭RavenBea17b


    mikeorange wrote: »
    Not defending Chinese but Seychelles have also used alot of AZ, nearly as much as Sinovac.
    Wouldn't go blaming it entirely on Chinese vaccine.

    I thought I read somewhere that in the Seychelles, the issue (apart from Sinovac) was that they may have already picked up the virus close to vaccination and so not enough time to develop antibodies etc.


  • #280
    mikeorange
    Site Banned Posts: 58 ✭✭mikeorange


    RavenBea17b wrote: »
    I thought I read somewhere that in the Seychelles, the issue (apart from Sinovac) was that they may have already picked up the virus close to vaccination and so not enough time to develop antibodies etc.

    Yes it's many issues, they opened with high cases, alot of variants like SA there, tourists coming from everywhere, 1st dose AZ doesn't give great protection and only started been given out in March/April so not many on 2nd dose for full protection and Sinovac appears not the best vaccine tbf, also very little natural immunity in the population compared to places like UK, Israel, USA etc that let it run free at times.

    Seychelles was also basically Covid free till Jan/Feb 2021, I would guess Covid free nations like AUS, NZ will have similar situation develop when they open up, the vaccine's won't work better for transmission than restrictions in Covid free nations, they are going to have to accept higher cases.


  • #281
    snotboogie
    Registered Users Posts: 3,557 ✭✭✭snotboogie


    RavenBea17b wrote: »
    I thought I read somewhere that in the Seychelles, the issue (apart from Sinovac) was that they may have already picked up the virus close to vaccination and so not enough time to develop antibodies etc.

    They are using Sinopharm not Sinovac. They have an absolutely tiny population, about the same as westmeath, so relatively small outbreaks can disproportionately affect their cases per million. However middle Eastern countries with a much larger population using large quantities of Sinopharm and Latin American countries using Sinovac are having similar issues containing spread despite widespread vaccination. There is clearly an issue


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  • #282
    RavenBea17b
    Registered Users Posts: 318 ✭✭RavenBea17b


    Turtwig wrote: »
    No fan of Ryan but what has he said here that's problematic? Apart from maybe restrictions on UK flights.

    Does anyone have any figures about what percentage of positive tests are geo-sequenced and then variant checked in Ireland?

    Give an idea of percentage of positives with variant type. The Kent one took off.
    The UK are taking action and give regular updates, just not seeing anything from the HSE about rates etc

    Anyone seen anything published - rather than 'a spokesperson said comment' ??


  • #283
    dominatinMC
    Registered Users Posts: 2,850 ✭✭✭dominatinMC


    Hurrache wrote: »
    On reporting, or just reporting stuff you don't want to know about or agree with? In pretty sure it's the latter for yourself.

    Your reaction, and others, is a bit hysterical, particularly when you give little credit to the general public who read such things. By and large they don't need their hands held and surprisingly have their own critical thinking.

    To go down your road you'd be advocating the banning of the red tops, something I can get behind in fairness for other reasons, as I don't want to know anything about what they call stories and a lot of their crap has little basis in reality.
    No one on here is arbiter of these matters, that's the role of a responsible editor - few of which appear to exist these days. That article is full of hypothetical worse-case scenarios, what-if's, and hyperbole. Do you think that is doing the reader a service? Is it good for the general discourse?

    This is not some drug deal gone wrong, or some banking scandal, which the red tops can embellish. This is a national emergency, where there is a moral obligation to instil faith into the vaccine programme (for the greater good of us all), rather than continually undermine it. It's a damning indictment of our media that we have to rely on Boards for factual up-to-date information.


  • #284
    Wolf359f
    Registered Users Posts: 5,698 ✭✭✭Wolf359f


    RavenBea17b wrote: »
    Does anyone have any figures about what percentage of positive tests are geo-sequenced and then variant checked in Ireland?

    Give an idea of percentage of positives with variant type. The Kent one took off.
    The UK are taking action and give regular updates, just not seeing anything from the HSE about rates etc

    Anyone seen anything published - rather than 'a spokesperson said comment' ??

    There's plenty of details in the variant report


  • #285
    RavenBea17b
    Registered Users Posts: 318 ✭✭RavenBea17b


    Furze99 wrote: »
    I'm sure discussed already but as I understand the HSE policy, it's that older age groups are at higher risk and should be vaccinated in that order. So as it stands, it seems that most ordinary citizens in the 60-69 age bracket will not be considered fully vaccinated till may be the end of August. This due to the 3 month gap between AZ doses. Whilst those in their 50s and even some 40s may be fully vaccinated by the end of June with a one month gap between Pfizer doses.

    How does this make sense from the overall public health strategy? Given that one dose of either is only c 30% effective against new strains going around. This would appear to be illogical as an older cohort is disproportionately exposed to risk. Trouble coming down the tracks for the powers that be? What bright sparks thought this was a good idea?

    I understood that after a first does, yes, you are not fully vaccinated, as you must still act as if you have NOT had any vaccine and still take precautions - no matter what variant.

    I suspect that peoples behaviours will change - bit like when you go to countries like Japan, public transport etc, people have worn facemasks for years etc.


  • #286
    RavenBea17b
    Registered Users Posts: 318 ✭✭RavenBea17b


    Furze99 wrote: »
    When they planned this vaccination strategy / time schedule - it was clearly evident that this mismatch in being 'fully vaccinated' would arise between their age cohorts and decisions on vaccines.

    They would also have been aware of the possibility if not existence of more resistant strains. So that's no excuse either. It would appear that the strategy was based more on the optics of using up available vaccines as much as actual risks to public health.

    Of course, strategy may change and those who've been given AZ may be called backed more quickly. As it stands, there's a lot of people who've been given AZ who ain't going to be very happy in the coming weeks when they cop on fully that they were sold a pup in terms of PR.

    In what way were they sold a pup - the data is ever changing. The whole covid situation is what a evolving. A vaccine, any vaccine is beneficial when the alternative.... yes, some have had no issues, others - many not the case.


  • #287
    Furze99
    Registered Users Posts: 10,202 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    RavenBea17b wrote: »
    In what way were they sold a pup - the data is ever changing. The whole covid situation is what a evolving. A vaccine, any vaccine is beneficial when the alternative.... yes, some have had no issues, others - many not the case.

    They were sold a pup in that they've been allocated a vaccine & schedule that currently means that most will not be fully vaccinated for many weeks after those in the younger age cohorts. Told by Leo and others that they must take it or to the back of the queue.

    As things stand, in July many people in the their 50s and even 40s will have had two doses of Pfizer plus time for them to bed in. Whilst those in their 60s who are supposedly at higher risk, will be looking on with only one dose of a nominally less effective AZ vaccine.

    How does this entirely predictable scenario make sense?


  • #288
    bucketybuck
    Registered Users Posts: 18,088 ✭✭✭✭bucketybuck


    Furze99 wrote: »
    How does this entirely predictable scenario make sense?

    Because getting that first dose in the arm is and always was more important than when they get the top up 2nd dose?

    It makes perfect sense really.


  • #289
    RavenBea17b
    Registered Users Posts: 318 ✭✭RavenBea17b


    Furze99 wrote: »
    They were sold a pup in that they've been allocated a vaccine & schedule that currently means that most will not be fully vaccinated for many weeks after those in the younger age cohorts. Told by Leo and others that they must take it or to the back of the queue.

    As things stand, in July many people in the their 50s and even 40s will have had two doses of Pfizer plus time for them to bed in. Whilst those in their 60s who are supposedly at higher risk, will be looking on with only one dose of a nominally less effective AZ vaccine.

    How does this entirely predictable scenario make sense?

    Ah, I see what you meant now.
    But still, the situation is changing almost on an hourly basis (or it certainly feels that way). The AZ 16 week gap never really made sense to me anyway. The UK average for second dose I think is running at 10 weeks or so at the moment, but is I think going to reduced (family in Northern Ireland have mentioned this).


  • #290
    Lumen
    Registered Users Posts: 31,008 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    Furze99 wrote: »
    As things stand, in July many people in the their 50s and even 40s will have had two doses of Pfizer plus time for them to bed in. Whilst those in their 60s who are supposedly at higher risk, will be looking on with only one dose of a nominally less effective AZ vaccine.
    I'm not sure whether you are moaning on your own behalf or on behalf of the old people, so let me invent a hypothetical old person, Gramps, for me to direct my scorn.

    Look Gramps, we largely shut down the country to keep you alive. Young people lost their jobs, put on hold their social lives, their sex lives. Businesses have been ruined. Self-employed people have ploughed their entire life savings into keeping their heads above water. You were prioritised for the earliest available vaccines, after the very frail and the healthcare workers (whose vaccination ensures that should you need medical care you won't get infected by them).

    If your fear of variants and imperfect vaccine protection bothers you, hide under the duvet for a few weeks longer until your second dose kicks in. In the meantime, a bit of graciousness would be appreciated.


  • #291
    RavenBea17b
    Registered Users Posts: 318 ✭✭RavenBea17b


    Excellent twitter thread explaining the vaccine effective update regarding the Indian variants. Explains the interval gaps.

    Always find this twitter account so helpful and really informative, in a way that is Headlines etc.


    Really worth the time to read and is good news.

    https://twitter.com/sailorrooscout/status/1396409964239917056?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet


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  • #292
    Furze99
    Registered Users Posts: 10,202 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    Lumen wrote: »
    I'm not sure whether you are moaning on your own behalf or on behalf of the old people, so let me invent a hypothetical old person, Gramps, for me to direct my scorn.

    Look Gramps, we largely shut down the country to keep you alive. Young people lost their jobs, put on hold their social lives, their sex lives. Businesses have been ruined. Self-employed people have ploughed their entire life savings into keeping their heads above water. You were prioritised for the earliest available vaccines, after the very frail and the healthcare workers (whose vaccination ensures that should you need medical care you won't get infected by them).

    If your fear of variants and imperfect vaccine protection bothers you, hide under the duvet for a few weeks longer until your second dose kicks in. In the meantime, a bit of graciousness would be appreciated.

    I'll ignore the self pitying tosh - this is a thread about vaccines and the systems to deliver same. I am simply questioning the rationale of a system that declares that those in older age groups are more at risk but which then prolongs their exposure to contracting the virus compared to younger age cohorts. It doesn't make sense from a public health perspective. The authorities were aware of the time frames for two dose 'full vaccination' for the various vaccines months ago. Yet they have chosen a certain path that exposes their strategy to risk.

    As things stand, if the Indian variant or others equally transmissible start spreading here, then your '60s Gramps' given one dose of AZ may as well not be vaccinated at all till the end of August at earliest. Whilst younger cohorts will have the best protection.

    Of course you can argue that younger cohorts should have best protection (and I'd agree) as they have more to offer society in terms of work & tax. But that's not how the system has operated to date - all over 70s are pretty much fully vaccinated by now.


  • #293
    Furze99
    Registered Users Posts: 10,202 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    RavenBea17b wrote: »
    Excellent twitter thread explaining the vaccine effective update regarding the Indian variants. Explains the interval gaps.

    Always find this twitter account so helpful and really informative, in a way that is Headlines etc.


    Really worth the time to read and is good news.

    https://twitter.com/sailorrooscout/status/1396409964239917056?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet

    It was widely reported yesterday that both Pfizer and AZ vaccines are only 33% effective against Indian variants, three weeks after 1st dose.

    Reported much more effective in weeks following the second dose of either. But it's that time lapse between doses that will become an issue. Those getting Pfizer will be exposed to risk for a far shorter period.


  • #294
    pawdee
    Registered Users Posts: 548 ✭✭✭pawdee


    Any idea how long after registering before appointment texts come through?


  • #295
    namloc1980
    Registered Users Posts: 18,058 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980


    Any ideas when the portal will open for 40-44?


  • #296
    Sarah1916
    Registered Users Posts: 248 ✭✭Sarah1916


    pawdee wrote: »
    Any idea how long after registering before appointment texts come through?

    MY Dad got his text within about 3/4 days and got his vaccine 6 days after registering. (registered 3 days after his age was allowed to)

    Both parents in law were only waiting 3-4 days before they had their vaccine (text was about a day or two after registering)

    All West Dublin (Citywest).


  • #297
    Rket4000
    Registered Users Posts: 183 ✭✭Rket4000


    pawdee wrote: »
    Any idea how long after registering before appointment texts come through?

    Depends on where you live.... In drogheda for some people it's more than 4 weeks - in other areas it's within a couple of days


  • #298
    Lumen
    Registered Users Posts: 31,008 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    Furze99 wrote: »
    I'll ignore the self pitying tosh - this is a thread about vaccines and the systems to deliver same. I am simply questioning the rationale of a system that declares that those in older age groups are more at risk but which then prolongs their exposure to contracting the virus compared to younger age cohorts. It doesn't make sense from a public health perspective. The authorities were aware of the time frames for two dose 'full vaccination' for the various vaccines months ago. Yet they have chosen a certain path that exposes their strategy to risk.

    As things stand, if the Indian variant or others equally transmissible start spreading here, then your '60s Gramps' given one dose of AZ may as well not be vaccinated at all till the end of August at earliest. Whilst younger cohorts will have the best protection.

    Of course you can argue that younger cohorts should have best protection (and I'd agree) as they have more to offer society in terms of work & tax. But that's not how the system has operated to date - all over 70s are pretty much fully vaccinated by now.

    I'm not self-pitying. I've been professionally and financially unaffected by the pandemic, as I was already WFH. I do though appreciate the incredible sacrifice that the young have made for the old.

    Anyway, if the medium-old people don't get AZ then it'll go unused, which will result in a slower rollout and more infection and death - that's the public health rationale. Use all available vaccines.

    As for the vaccine effectiveness, AFAIK one dose of AZ gives good protection against the Indian variant after a few weeks, so I don't see the problem. The 30% efficacy was only after three weeks, and it has been known from the earliest studies that AZ protection takes at least 5 weeks to reach maximum effectiveness.


  • #299
    Russman
    Registered Users Posts: 5,846 ✭✭✭Russman


    Furze99 wrote: »
    It was widely reported yesterday that both Pfizer and AZ vaccines are only 33% effective against Indian variants, three weeks after 1st dose.

    Reported much more effective in weeks following the second dose of either. But it's that time lapse between doses that will become an issue. Those getting Pfizer will be exposed to risk for a far shorter period.

    But at this point, there's not a lot of people (if any) getting AZ as a first dose anymore. I think it was Reid who said on Sat that the incoming AZ will be used mainly for second doses.

    They can't be expected to have made policy on the vaccines back in Jan/Feb before the NIAC restrictions and new variants came into play. Unless the policy was going to be nothing but Pfizer for everyone, which would have been madness.


  • #300
    is_that_so
    Registered Users Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    RavenBea17b wrote: »
    Ah, I see what you meant now.
    But still, the situation is changing almost on an hourly basis (or it certainly feels that way). The AZ 16 week gap never really made sense to me anyway. The UK average for second dose I think is running at 10 weeks or so at the moment, but is I think going to reduced (family in Northern Ireland have mentioned this).
    It was down to the AZ supply shambles, plus a bit of aping of the UK. It mostly really only affected HCWs. They'll be up over the next 4 weeks for their second dose.


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  • #301
    Unicorn Milk Latte
    Registered Users Posts: 382 ✭✭Unicorn Milk Latte


    JPup wrote: »

    Without a phd in science, which I’m assuming you don’t have, how can you hope to truly understand the technicalities of what goes into the vaccines and why they are effective at preventing serious disease?


    No.

    It is perfectly possible for scientist to offer detailed explanations of science that most people can understand.


    In Germany, there is a weekly Coronavirus podcast with the most prominent Corona expert in the country, Christian Drosten, who developed the first Corona PCR test in early 2020, and has specialised in researching Coronaviruses for many years.


    The podcast is, at times, quite technical, but it's perfectly possible for mere mortals to follow. The science journalists who are asking the questions have done a great job of adapting, these days they ask about Tcells, modelling, they are familiar with current studies, and inquire about details in these studies.


    One example from a recent podcast is a detailed explanation about a 3rd type of vaccines - protein based vaccines (like Novavax) - that are currently under development, and why this type of vaccine is most likely the best option for children.





    Direct communication between scientists and the people, without politicians as intermediaries, is essential, and one of the things that really should and could be improved.


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