Should the metro be barrier free?

Kermit.de.frog · 26-04-2021 1:45pm #1

Whilst I understand the rationale for barrier free access I have a number of concerns about the prospect of a barrier free underground metro.

Given some of the areas the metro, which I know well, would pass through and the city center generally I think it's an error of judgement to push barrier free access on ideological transport only grounds.

The principle concern would be the chronic level of anti social behaviour in the city but also addicts and homeless that might put themselves at risk in the tunnel.

The red line and how that's turned out was foreseeable with regard to ASB and now it seems a worse mistake might be made if indeed they plan a barrier free underground system.

At the end of the day there are things that I believe Dublin just can't have because of a basic failure to deal with this ever escalating problem in Dublin and barrier free transport is one of them unfortunately.

https://twitter.com/jasoncullenfilm/status/1386594253946695683

Ok that example is the Southside and one of many growing issues on the DART line but I also think that these ideas are pushed by those who have very little appreciation of the gravity of the problems on the northside of the river because, frankly, they rarely cross the river.

If they did today they might be less enthusiastic.

This will be the red line only even worse and underground if there are no barriers.

We need proper policing and a well resourced dedicated transport police before any of this should be considered or it's asking for trouble. We have nothing close to it.

I'm all for the metro line but not barrier free.

What do you think? Would you have similar concerns here?

magicbastarder · 26-04-2021 1:49pm

i don't think the barriers would make a difference if there's not a security presence, and the security presence would then also be a deterrent for what the barriers would be intended to achieve?

athlone573 · 26-04-2021 1:51pm

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Whilst I understand the rationale for barrier free access I have a number of concerns about the prospect........

What do you think? Would you have similar concerns here?

Veolia wouldnt put up with any of that sort of messing at the luas stops, presumably the metro will be run by a private company as well.

Del.Monte · 26-04-2021 3:07pm

What Metro is this of which you speak? I didn't think that it had been approved or was I asleep?

Kermit.de.frog · 26-04-2021 4:43pm

Del.Monte wrote: »

What Metro is this of which you speak? I didn't think that it had been approved or was I asleep?

An application for one is going in. According to this there won't be barriers, it would be like the Luas

https://twitter.com/DublinCommuters/status/1385685886373961728

I think this needs to be fleshed out through the hearings. On balance I don't think it's a good idea.

Peregrine · 26-04-2021 6:03pm

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

I think it's an error of judgement to push barrier free access on ideological transport only grounds.

Ideological transport grounds? What? Barrier-less stations are not proposed for ideological reasons. This was proposed way back in the 2017 Tunnel Configuration Study for reduction in space requirements and maintenance costs and improved passenger flow. In fact, the only ideology on this thread is yours.

"Experts working on the project have recommended that London Underground-style barriers be omitted to reduce the need for queuing areas. A study has found this could significantly reduce the size of the Metro’s underground stations “compared to a conventional ticket hall”."
https://www.businesspost.ie/analysis-opinion/barrier-free-system-on-cards-for-dublin-metro-04e32221

bk · 26-04-2021 7:17pm

Well if the DART is anything to go by, outside of the big city center stations, the barriers are open most of the time anyway. And even if they aren't it is super easy for "troublemakers" to force them open or jump them.

Keep in mind barriers like this are designed to easily force open, due to the need for fast evacuation in case of fire. An even more important point with underground stations.

The only real way to reduce anti-social issues is with actual staff in place. Security staff, along with good monitored CCTV and speedy response by Gardai and security staff.

I'd say the issue of a dedicated transport police would raise it's ugly head again.

Ben D Bus · 26-04-2021 7:58pm

Barriers are no substitute for policing. Keep the stations barrier free.

[Deleted User] · 26-04-2021 8:16pm

There are very few good arguments for barriers but many against.

Kermit.de.frog · 26-04-2021 9:31pm

Peregrine wrote: »

Ideological transport grounds? What? Barrier-less stations are not proposed for ideological reasons. This was proposed way back in the 2017 Tunnel Configuration Study for reduction in space requirements and maintenance costs and improved passenger flow. In fact, the only ideology on this thread is yours.

"Experts working on the project have recommended that London Underground-style barriers be omitted to reduce the need for queuing areas. A study has found this could significantly reduce the size of the Metro’s underground stations “compared to a conventional ticket hall”."
https://www.businesspost.ie/analysis-opinion/barrier-free-system-on-cards-for-dublin-metro-04e32221

You've somehow ignored the issue completely. It's not about big or small stations.

It's about what we have to accept we can't have because of how this place is run. We have no policing worth the name, we have no transport police, we have serious anti social behaviour issues in the heart of this city and right along the proposed route. This is a consequence of policy decisions.

It's not going to work.

It needs policing and barriers. Not head in the sand stuff ignoring the problem. People won't use a service they don't feel safe on. It's why so many refuse to take the red line luas (at certain times of the day a glorified junkie ferry to the clinics smartly located all over the city center but mostly just low level scumbags making a nuisance). They don't want the hassle or the perceived increased risk of hassle. They take the bus.

[Deleted User] · 26-04-2021 9:38pm

Barriers are not a solution to ASB

Kermit.de.frog · 26-04-2021 9:41pm

bk wrote: »

Well if the DART is anything to go by, outside of the big city center stations, the barriers are open most of the time anyway. And even if they aren't it is super easy for "troublemakers" to force them open or jump them.

Keep in mind barriers like this are designed to easily force open, due to the need for fast evacuation in case of fire. An even more important point with underground stations.

The only real way to reduce anti-social issues is with actual staff in place. Security staff, along with good monitored CCTV and speedy response by Gardai and security staff.

I'd say the issue of a dedicated transport police would raise it's ugly head again.

We need a properly resourced dedicated transport police in addition to private security. I'm not holding my breath on it. It's been mentioned for years.

Victor · 27-04-2021 1:17am

Whatever about fare protection and anti-social behavior, there are also the matters of crowd control and fire escape.

Del2005 · 28-04-2021 11:06pm

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

We need a properly resourced dedicated transport police in addition to private security. I'm not holding my breath on it. It's been mentioned for years.

No point in doing this if the justice system just lets the people off with a slap on the wrist. The whole justice system needs to be reformed to stop protecting the culprits while innocent people suffer.

JPup · 30-04-2021 10:22am

If your theory was correct, there would be more problems at Luas stops then DART stations, and there aren't. QED.

Even the examples of anti-social behaviour your highlight in your first post are from a DART station. Which has barriers. So really not sure you've thought this through.

MyLove4Satan · 30-04-2021 5:53pm

These people who go on about 'anti-social' elements is usually a camouflage for their own class prejudiced. Most of the junkies and other idiots around the city centre don't actually bother people directly. It is often the reaction they generate in the ones with a bit of a middle class snobbery.

Security will solve any anti-social issues.

Also Dublin does not have a major crime issue! This is Middle Ireland/Joe Duffy Speed Dialers being in their terrified fetish modes again. I recall one the reasons the original DART plan was dropped was the movie The Warriors and media comparing underground rail in Dublin to New York Gangs on the B train going to Coney Island. I kid you not!

JUST BUILD THE FECKIN METRO!

iffandonlyif · 30-04-2021 6:03pm

I haven't evaded a fare since I was a teen, but whenever I go to pay at the at the machine in my local Dart station, I can't help but momentarily wonder why I'm paying when I see that the barriers are open and unattended. Barriers, even if easily jumped, enforce the expectation of paying a fare. If people are going to evade it, at least let them feel like they're doing something wrong.

MyLove4Satan wrote: »

These people who go on about 'anti-social' elements is usually a camouflage for their own class prejudiced. Most of the junkies and other idiots around the city centre don't actually bother people directly. It is often the reaction they generate in the ones with a bit of a middle class snobbery.

I must say, I hate this attitude.

Pete_Cavan · 30-04-2021 8:39pm

I wouldn’t be opposed to barriers in city centre stations only, a bit like how DART seems to operate (not sure if that is an official policy but it seems to be the way it is to me). Maybe add them to some other strategic stations too, like the airport. That would see a large portion of passengers having to pass through a barrier and therefore having a valid ticket.

That doesn't do away with the need for security and transport police but protects revenue and gives people more fate in the system that others are paying. In fact barriers go hand in hand with in station security so people don't jump over barriers or damage them. I don't think the emergency/fire escape thing stands up, such things are generally set to revert to open on alarm activation.

Del2005 · 30-04-2021 9:42pm

MyLove4Satan wrote: »

These people who go on about 'anti-social' elements is usually a camouflage for their own class prejudiced. Most of the junkies and other idiots around the city centre don't actually bother people directly. It is often the reaction they generate in the ones with a bit of a middle class snobbery.

Security will solve any anti-social issues.

But the ones who do cause trouble aren't dealt with by the security, who have no more power than a random person on the street, or the Gardaí. Open drug taking on public transport is anti social behaviour, the smell of weed from upstairs on buses in sort areas would get you high, and drunks wandering the Luas begging is not a not a good image for something that's supposed to get people out of their cars.

MyLove4Satan wrote: »

Also Dublin does not have a major crime issue! This is Middle Ireland/Joe Duffy Speed Dialers being in their terrified fetish modes again. I recall one the reasons the original DART plan was dropped was the movie The Warriors and media comparing underground rail in Dublin to New York Gangs on the B train going to Coney Island. I kid you not!

JUST BUILD THE FECKIN METRO!

Dublin has a massive low level crime problem. There's open drug dealing on the streets, is that not an major crime issue for you?, there's wanton vandalism/destruction of property and delivery people are so regularly attacked that there's an interactive map of locations for them to avoid.

MyLove4Satan · 30-04-2021 11:03pm

Del2005 wrote: »

But the ones who do cause trouble aren't dealt with by the security, who have no more power than a random person on the street, or the Gardaí. Open drug taking on public transport is anti social behaviour, the smell of weed from upstairs on buses in sort areas would get you high, and drunks wandering the Luas begging is not a not a good image for something that's supposed to get people out of their cars.

Dublin has a massive low level crime problem. There's open drug dealing on the streets, is that not an major crime issue for you?, there's wanton vandalism/destruction of property and delivery people are so regularly attacked that there's an interactive map of locations for them to avoid.

I agree. But it should not be a big enough of an issue to determine if an underground rail system should be built or not. It would not be in any other European country, but in Ireland howevre...

Del2005 · 01-05-2021 1:22am

MyLove4Satan wrote: »

I agree. But it should not be a big enough of an issue to determine if an underground rail system should be built or not. It would not be in any other European country, but in Ireland howevre...

The green line has very little anti social behaviour yet the NIMBYs got it's upgrade to metro neutered. NIMBYs, people afraid of change* and politicians are the problem with public transport development in Dublin not anti social behaviour.

* look at the trouble bus connects is having trying to make the buses better for the majority by people objecting to having to get 2 buses, to reach their destination quicker, all backed up by populist politicians.

Should the metro be barrier free?

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