Battery electric vehicle feasible for motorway driving?

JimmyKane · 14-02-2021 5:17pm #1

Hi - hoping for a bit of advise from EV owners. I'd due a change of car and would like to go electric for the financial savings and also for environmental reasons. I didn't think going electric would be possible in my situation (a 220km round trip commute), however, having sat down to work out the figures re cost and range, maybe it is? Would it make sense for me to move from diesel to electric? And if so, what EV would you recommend? Anything else I should consider, which I haven't taken into account?

My current situation:

- Driving a 12 year old diesel which is now pushing 300,000km and starting to give trouble to the point that I want to change it to something reliable with low mileage.

- My annual mileage is approx 40,000km - about 80% of which is motorway driving, cruise control at 120km/h mostly. My commute is 110km each way.

- High servicing costs given the need to service vehicle every 15-20,000km (currently getting it serviced every 4 months or so). Costs me a bit less than most due to mate-rate mechanic.

- Diesel spend over the past 12 months was €2700 (working out as €6.75/100km or 5.3L/100km approx).

- Tolls: M50 tolls are costing me €680 per year (€2.10 each time + €1 monthly tag rental) approx. 65% of my M50 journeys are off-peak times.

- Car insurance €460, Tax €270

Other considerations:

- If I bought an EV I would install a home charger. Currently paying electricity at home @ €0.1938 per unit, but will change to another supplier if offering a cheaper rate or could install a night-time meter? I would expect to do most of my charging at home provided the range of the EV is enough to get me to work and back without using a charging point.

- Charging points: there is one only a couple of minutes walk from my workplace and I rarely see it being used. So an option would be to park it there and walk the remaining 2 minutes to work and come back for it after an hour or two. This would be a bit of an inconvenience if I had to do it everyday, so I'd rather an EV with sufficient range to do the return trip at motorway speeds.

- Driving at 100km/h instead of 120km/h to extend range is an option but again I'd rather not have to do that as my 1hr commute is long enough as it is.

The main question for me is can I get a BEV that will get me to work and back without needing to be charged, considering the greater drain on the battery from driving at motorway speeds? Secondly, after 3 - 5 years of travelling 40,000km per year, what state will the battery be in? Will I still have 220km range?

What could I expect to be the cost of charging per year? With mainly motorway driving can i expect 15kwh per 100km from say an Ionic or a Nissan Leaf? What would be the cost per kwh from a home charger?

Budget: My budget is approximately €20,000.

Option 1:
€10,000 (Cost of another diesel)
€13,500 (Fuel costs over 5 years - diesel @ €2700 per year x 5 = €13,500)
________
€23,500 (Cost of car and fuel only over 5 years at which point odometer will be approaching 300k and car will be worth little or nothing).

Option 2:
€20,000 (Cost of a BEV)
€5000 (Fuel costs over 5 years - electricity @ €1000 per year x 5 = €5000 - purely pulling this figure out of the sky, is it realistic??)
________
€25000 (Cost of car and charging only over 5 years at which point odometer will be approaching 250k with reduced battery performance and car would be worth little or nothing I'd imagine?).

Additional savings from reduced tolls and road tax would likely be eaten up by larger insurance premium.

So the electric option might see me paying a small amount more over 5 years for the privilege of driving a much newer car.

Any advice/thoughts welcome!

Black_Knight · 14-02-2021 6:02pm

Bev fuel costs would be about 1/5 that of diesel. More if you're charging publicly. Or typically 1-2c per km of driving.

Eg. My old Passat was about €90 to fill for about 1000km range. My Ioniq is about €2.50 for about 200km range on average. Ioniq is a very efficient car though.

At that milage, are servicing costs significant. EVs typically have cheap servicing, mostly just to keep the warranty intact.

Black_Knight · 14-02-2021 6:04pm

Also, while the car may have reduced range due to battery degradation, the car won't be worthless. The battery will still hold significant change, and would be perfect for reuse in a different role. You can see old leaf cars with flip all range going for 5k, because the battery is always worth something.

AndyBoBandy · 14-02-2021 6:15pm

A brand new Renault Zoe ZE50 has a WLTP range of 395 km and costs in the region of €27k
WLTP is based on ideal conditions, so say 20 degrees and driving at 90km/h

Motorway range at 120km/h, in winter (5 degrees) should still be in or around the 210km mark, (110km/h and you are in 230km territory)

So in your situation, a slight reduction to winter motorway speed, and you’ll easily make your daily journey. (Or a 20-30 minute charge in winter close to work and your 120 km/h all year round).

graememk · 14-02-2021 6:33pm

First of all, Switch your electricity provider now. Whatever you decide! having a good idea of your yearly useage will help figure out whos cheapest. (comparison websites are pretty on the ball for savings)
Im on energia, with a day/night meter and I'm paying 15c for a day unit, 7 for night.

Now that's out of the way, you should be budgeting about 20kwh/100km for motorway at 120km/h driving, if not a little bit more.

theres a lot of options for new cars right now, e208, eCorsa, id3, then into the bigger cars (and/or) bigger battery of the Kona, eNiro, id4

Second hand there isn't as much choice yet, And are currently holding value really well.

With that amount of motorway driving, the newer cars with adaptive cruise control and lane keep make the journey a lot nicer.(be it BEV or Diesel!)

assuming 7c charging at night and 40k km and 20kwh/100km your chatting about 600/year in electricity. Then you can add in preheat/cool in the morning etc

Last service cost me €100 but it was basically a software update and a check of things.

We dont do much motorway driving at all, but N roads etc our range when full in winter (on an Eniro) is 380/390 km. In Summer its 420ish.

It is a big ask to go from basically scrapping your current car to a new car.

In about 2-3 years more and more second hand BEV cars should be coming onto the market.

KCross · 14-02-2021 6:56pm

JimmyKane wrote: »

- Tolls: M50 tolls are costing me €680 per year (€2.10 each time + €1 monthly tag rental) approx. 65% of my M50 journeys are off-peak times.

You can get a max of €500/yr benefit from the toll incentive with an EV.

JimmyKane wrote: »

- Car insurance €460, Tax €270

Based on what you are paying already for insurance you wont save much there. Maybe €100-€150.

Tax is €120 in an EV.

JimmyKane wrote: »

- If I bought an EV I would install a home charger. Currently paying electricity at home @ €0.1938 per unit, but will change to another supplier if offering a cheaper rate or could install a night-time meter? I would expect to do most of my charging at home provided the range of the EV is enough to get me to work and back without using a charging point.

You are over paying for your electricity as it is. So, regardless of what you decide on the EV front you need to change provider and get a better rate!

If you do get an EV then you will absolutely switch to a day/night rate.

You would be paying ~14c/7c for day/night rate respectively.

JimmyKane wrote: »

- Charging points: there is one only a couple of minutes walk from my workplace and I rarely see it being used. So an option would be to park it there and walk the remaining 2 minutes to work and come back for it after an hour or two. This would be a bit of an inconvenience if I had to do it everyday, so I'd rather an EV with sufficient range to do the return trip at motorway speeds.

Depending on what EV you pick the time of the year that you will need to use that charge point will be in the winter in the worst of the weather so it will get annoying fairly quickly.

Any chance of charging at your work place? Even access to a standard 13A outdoor socket? It wont charge the car to full but it would add enough to ensure you dont have to slow down to make the return journey.

JimmyKane wrote: »

Secondly, after 3 - 5 years of travelling 40,000km per year, what state will the battery be in? Will I still have 220km range?

How much it degrades by will be very car dependent.

JimmyKane wrote: »

What could I expect to be the cost of charging per year? With mainly motorway driving can i expect 15kwh per 100km from say an Ionic or a Nissan Leaf? What would be the cost per kwh from a home charger?

If you manage to do it all on a home charge point you are looking at ~€700 for your 40k km's. Again car dependent but in that ball park.

JimmyKane wrote: »

Budget: My budget is approximately €20,000.

I think you'll need to increase the budget(and you can as you have underestimated some of the savings) so that you can get a longer range car that can comfortably do your return trip all year round.

If you can get work charging then that really opens things up and you can reduce the budget then and have a much larger selection of EV's to choose from.

JimmyKane wrote: »

Option 1:
€10,000 (Cost of another diesel)
€13,500 (Fuel costs over 5 years - diesel @ €2700 per year x 5 = €13,500)
________
€23,500 (Cost of car and fuel only over 5 years at which point odometer will be approaching 300k and car will be worth little or nothing).

Add in your servicing costs which must be substantial.
The EV will be less... budget about €120/yr for the EV assuming you are not killing the suspension parts.

What are your diesel servicing costs per year?

JimmyKane wrote: »

Option 2:
€20,000 (Cost of a BEV)
€5000 (Fuel costs over 5 years - electricity @ €1000 per year x 5 = €5000 - purely pulling this figure out of the sky, is it realistic??)
________
€25000 (Cost of car and charging only over 5 years at which point odometer will be approaching 250k with reduced battery performance and car would be worth little or nothing I'd imagine?).

As per above.... €700 for electricity.

JimmyKane wrote: »

Additional savings from reduced tolls and road tax would likely be eaten up by larger insurance premium.

Insurance should go down.
I paid €295 (Aviva) on a new EV a few weeks ago.

~€400 or so saved on tolls.
€150 saved on tax

KCross · 14-02-2021 7:21pm

Just to put all those figures in one small post....
Type|Fuel|Tax|Tolls|Insurance|Servicing
Diesel|2700|270|680|460|500+?
BEV|700|120|200|300|120
SAVE|2000|150|400?|160|380?
|||||
Total Saved per year|3090

All those figures arent exact... a case of YMMV but it wont be too far wrong as the fuel is the big one and thats a known quantity.

Over your proposed 5 year period you are looking at €15k saved. That should allow you to up the budget some little bit and still pocket some savings.

So, what car to pick then.... have you any requirements? Big, small, kids, badge snobbery(

) etc? Or will any car do as long as it has the range and you can drive at 120km/h?

JimmyKane · 14-02-2021 9:57pm

Thanks for the really encouraging replies. I was afraid I was underestimating the saving, not over estimating them! Annual servicing costs is probably about €700 I'd say.
The budget can be expanded so much as the additional savings can mostly cover the additional loan repayment that would be required. I'd rather not buy brand new though given the immediate depreciation. I'd rather spend a little less on a 2018 - 2020 year model ideally.

KCross wrote: »

You are over paying for your electricity as it is. So, regardless of what you decide on the EV front you need to change provider and get a better rate!

Thanks, will get on that.

KCross wrote: »

Any chance of charging at your work place? Even access to a standard 13A outdoor socket? It wont charge the car to full but it would add enough to ensure you dont have to slow down to make the return journey.

I don't think so, but I'll check this out tomorrow.

KCross wrote: »

So, what car to pick then.... have you any requirements? Big, small, kids, badge snobbery( ) etc? Or will any car do as long as it has the range and you can drive at 120km/h?

Well quite honestly I like a saloon but not against switching to hatchback. No kids at present but planning to start on that next year! The new e208 looks great but I don't see any 2020 models for sale as a used car yet. I wonder would a dealer do much of a scrappage deal on their 27k model?
I like the look of the newer model Leaf, the Ioniq and the eNiro. The Renault Zoe looks a little small, I'd rather a larger car but range would be the primary concern.

graememk · 14-02-2021 11:05pm

There's a 2019 kona on carzone still for under 30k but it's been there a while. People have their reservations about the early kona being basic with a small boot.

Kona/eniro/esoul all have the same drive and battery, but different bodies.

A (2019?) eNiro popped up on donedeal a month back for 33k and was snapped up almost instantly.

Evs currently hold value really well as there's very little supply second hand right now.

The likes of the id3, e208, e-corsa only really came on sale at the second half 2020 so second hand cars will be scare.

Bargins are rare now- and go fast, esp now that the UK market has stopped.

Scrappage could be an option if they offer it!

AndyBoBandy · 14-02-2021 11:09pm

The Tesla Model 3 only hit these shores around 18 months ago, and a few have started showing up as second hand, though still at close to new prices....

There’s a 2019 one up North for €40k

drunkmonkey · 14-02-2021 11:13pm

ID3 will do that trip at 120km/h in cold weather like we've had recently on the motorway. If I'm not calculating wrong think 10,000km is after costing me about €250, only repair was a puncture and some screen wash €12, my insurance went up by about €150 though.

[Deleted User] · 14-02-2021 11:20pm

45kwh ID3 will do that trip. 352wltp range.

drunkmonkey · 14-02-2021 11:28pm

Deleted User wrote: »

45kwh ID3 will do that trip. 352wltp range.

Not at 120km/h it won't, wltp is in no way accurate for winter, cut it in half.

[Deleted User] · 14-02-2021 11:30pm

Car should be preheated in mornings. The energy is lost getting up to temperature which means 352wktp is not realistic for stop start driving but in one go it should be fine.

drunkmonkey · 14-02-2021 11:32pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Car should be preheated in mornings.

You can put in the oven it won't do it.

[Deleted User] · 14-02-2021 11:46pm

You can look at BatteryLife Channel on Youtube and see what he was getting at 130kmph on motorway at -1.5c in a 58kwh ID3 and TeslaBjoren's at -20 degrees

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1V6ucyFGKWuSQzvI8lMzvvWJHrBS82echMVJH37kwgjE/edit#gid=735351678

ID3 45KWh should do the job in an Irish winter. ID3 58KWh will definitely do the job.

drunkmonkey · 15-02-2021 12:08am

I'm going on my own experience after 10k, 45kwh would be putting unnecessary grief on yourself.

[Deleted User] · 15-02-2021 12:12am

So runs recorded on youtube in arctic temperatures count for nothing.
Also, it takes less to warm up a smaller battery block.

drunkmonkey · 15-02-2021 12:19am

Deleted User wrote: »

So runs recorded on youtube in arctic temperatures count for nothing.
Also, it takes less to warm up a smaller battery block.

So the people in other countries experience counts more than someone using it on the same motorways as op.
Advise them to buy the 45kwh I just don't agree with you based on my regular motorway spins..

[Deleted User] · 15-02-2021 12:35am

Your car isn't the same as the car I'm proposing. Your car doesn't have the latest firmware coming and it doesn't have the same wheels.
https://www.bolidenforum.de/filedata/fetch?id=1372430&d=1599541632

drunkmonkey · 15-02-2021 12:42am

Are you seriously claiming different wheels and software will give the 45kwh more range than the 58kwh has at present, I look forward to this software update.

[Deleted User] · 15-02-2021 12:45am

No. I'm saying your anecdotes are not valid.
The new firmware will help considerably.
What alloys are you on? 19" or 20"? Whatever you got on a 1st edition is worse than steelies with aero hubcaps and that is for certain.

drunkmonkey · 15-02-2021 12:48am

It's real world usage believe it if you like, my experience is consistent with a lot of people in the first movers group, mines on 18's. I do think the 2.1 software will help, by how much I don't know.

Lantus · 15-02-2021 10:49am

Hi op. So the issue is capital car cost for the larger battery you require. It's not readily achievable at the 20k budget you specified. 40 to 45 would be more realistic.

Given your mileage this car will have a 5 to 7 year lifespan so you won't be saving money. The 2nd hand market just isn't there yet. Plus the even bigger battery to cope with capacity drop off over time.

Your figures and analysis are v good though. Great to see someone thinking about the total cost.

ei9go · 15-02-2021 10:58am

The answer is simple, you need a Kia eNiro to do 220km return trip at 120kph.
The 52 kWh Zoe will just not do it but will have no issue if you drive at 100 kph,
No 40 kWh car will do it.

KCross · 15-02-2021 12:45pm

Lantus wrote: »

Given your mileage this car will have a 5 to 7 year lifespan so you won't be saving money.

Whoa there... whats that based on?

Lantus wrote: »

Hi op. So the issue is capital car cost for the larger battery you require. It's not readily achievable at the 20k budget you specified. 40 to 45 would be more realistic.

An ID.3 will do it for €10k less than that.

zg3409 · 15-02-2021 3:28pm

Firstly I would suggest you move house closer to work or change jobs to closer to home. 3 hours a day commuting is a waste of time and you should reconsider your life priorities.

Buying new it might be hard to make numbers work, but used cars do come on the market. I would normally suggest you get more range than you need as if roads are quiet you may drive faster and when you get home you may need to go to a trip to supermarket or urgent evening activity.

General things I ask each person, are you a 2 car household, as in can you use another car for long trips to avoid public charging? Public chargers are often broken, blocked or busy, some are broken for 2+ years, so you can't rely on them for daily use, and even on long trips you need to be cautious in case the charger is busy and you need spare range to get to next one. The way the public network is at present, I would want the option of a non electric if at all possible.

Can you charge at work? For this to happen you would need to be guaranteed 100% that charger will work OK 100% of the time, and not be blocked, broken or busy. Depending in your job you may be able to plug into ordinary household outlet at get 2kWh of energy per hour so say 7 hours would give you 14kWh into battery enough for about 80km. If you had a dedicated proper charger at work you could charge at 7kW meaning over 7 hours 49kWh meaning a full charge. In this case you might be able to get a car with a much smaller battery (1/2 the size) and charge at home and work each and every day. In this case a car with a guaranteed 110km range like a 28kWh ioniq for say 18,000 euro might be possible. However I would want several work chargers with 2 or 3 always free or have exclusive use of a dedicated charger and parking space.

[Deleted User] · 15-02-2021 3:39pm

zg3409 wrote: »

Firstly I would suggest you move house closer to work or change jobs to closer to home. 3 hours a day commuting is a waste of time and you should reconsider your life priorities.

Would you not think they have had plenty of time to ponder this topic during their commute.

Lantus · 15-02-2021 7:50pm

KCross wrote: »

Whoa there... whats that based on?

An ID.3 will do it for €10k less than that.

Lifespan based on mileage. 5 to 7 years is 200k to 300k for op.

The entry level id3 is 32k and 36k. Still more than ops budget and it's the bare bones model. But an option.

KCross · 15-02-2021 8:18pm

Lantus wrote: »

Lifespan based on mileage. 5 to 7 years is 200k to 300k for op.

You are saying the car will be unusable once it has 200k-300k on it.... what are you basing that on?

Note, there are Gen 1.x Leaf's with 200k on them and still running normally. A newer EV with a much larger battery, which will be cycled less for the same mileage, will have an even longer lifespan.

Lantus wrote: »

The entry level id3 is 32k and 36k. Still more than ops budget and it's the bare bones model. But an option.

Correct, but you said 40-45k.... in reality €10k less will do it... possibly even less again if he looks at e208 (€27k+) and the like and less again if he can get work charging which opens up the market to the shorter range cars.

Basically, €40-45k is not the minimum required.

[Deleted User] · 15-02-2021 8:24pm

KCross wrote: »

You are saying the car will be unusable once it has 200k-300k on it.... what are you basing that on?

Note, there are Gen 1.x Leaf's with 200k on them and still running normally. A newer EV with a much larger battery, which will be cycled less for the same mileage, will have an even longer lifespan.

Correct, but you said 40-45k.... in reality €10k less will do it... possibly even less again if he looks at e208 (€27k+) and the like and less again if he can get work charging which opens up the market to the shorter range cars.

Basically, €40-45k is not the minimum required.

In fairness a gen 1 leaf with 200k would barely get you to the shop

Battery electric vehicle feasible for motorway driving?

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