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Young Irish Players

  • 14-02-2021 10:50am
    #1
    CrazyFather1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 844 ✭✭✭


    Just listening to the RTE podcast and I know Jackman has mentioned this before on other podcast. If you haven't listened to the podcast it discuss's the fact young French players are put into ProD2 and get game time. Then can move back.

    With the four provinces starting to produce young talent we are starting to get a bit of a bottleneck. Young players are struggling to get game time against top teams. Now hopefully the ProXX quality increases but we still only have 4 teams and we still need to give the senior pro's game time.

    I thought the ROG move for Crowley should have been allowed, Munster now have Carbery(hopefully), JJ, Healy, Crowley. Yes I know injuries and all that but that is a back log. Similar we have issues at Leinster etc.

    At this stage should the IRFU look for a route for these young players?


«13

Comments

  • #2
    bayern
    Registered Users Posts: 1,024 ✭✭✭bayern


    Where?

    Pro d2? the championship? New Zealand?

    young players get game time, if they play well, they often get more game time and progress. Simple.

    unfortunately due to covid the AIL has been removed as pathway for young players to develop, until that returns there will be some young players not getting enough game time, but not sure the IRFU can solve that issue at the moment.


  • #3
    UAEguy2020
    Registered Users Posts: 2,098 ✭✭✭UAEguy2020


    CrazyFather1 wrote: »
    Just listening to the RTE podcast and I know Jackman has mentioned this before on other podcast. If you haven't listened to the podcast it discuss's the fact young French players are put into ProD2 and get game time. Then can move back.

    With the four provinces starting to produce young talent we are starting to get a bit of a bottleneck. Young players are struggling to get game time against top teams. Now hopefully the ProXX quality increases but we still only have 4 teams and we still need to give the senior pro's game time.

    I thought the ROG move for Crowley should have been allowed, Munster now have Carbery(hopefully), JJ, Healy, Crowley. Yes I know injuries and all that but that is a back log. Similar we have issues at Leinster etc.

    At this stage should the IRFU look for a route for these young players?

    We are getting bottled necked because in key positions we are keeping average players like Hanrahan and wasting potential game time on him when it could be used with Healy.


  • #4
    Poorside
    Registered Users Posts: 2,098 ✭✭✭Poorside


    Let them play in the Ail, would improve the quality of both the competition and the players. Too many spend time on the sidelines because of 'A' games. A draft system for clubs in their home province would probably be the fairest way to do it.


  • #5
    CrazyFather1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 844 ✭✭✭CrazyFather1


    bayern wrote: »
    Where?

    Pro d2? the championship? New Zealand?

    young players get game time, if they play well, they often get more game time and progress. Simple.

    unfortunately due to covid the AIL has been removed as pathway for young players to develop, until that returns there will be some young players not getting enough game time, but not sure the IRFU can solve that issue at the moment.

    The players in academy don't play in the AIL.

    Young players don't get game time, that's the whole point of the discussion. H Byrne is older than DuPoint etc. It was listed out the options at 10 for France, all younger or same age as H Byrne and all ave 50 starts in Top14 or Europe.

    Crowley was going to France to play, in reality we could be 2023 before he is even close to starting in Europe for Munster, not because he isn't good enough but because other players are good and in front of him


  • #6
    CrazyFather1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 844 ✭✭✭CrazyFather1


    Poorside wrote: »
    Let them play in the Ail, would improve the quality of both the competition and the players. Too many spend time on the sidelines because of 'A' games. A draft system for clubs in their home province would probably be the fairest way to do it.

    The AIL is not professional, how would insurance work etc?

    Would it not be worthwhile our young players getting some experience in another country/league if they wanted?


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  • #7
    bayern
    Registered Users Posts: 1,024 ✭✭✭bayern


    CrazyFather1 wrote: »
    The players in academy don't play in the AIL.

    Yes they do.

    There are many many teamsheets available online that prove this fact.


  • #8
    bayern
    Registered Users Posts: 1,024 ✭✭✭bayern


    CrazyFather1 wrote: »
    The players in academy don't play in the AIL.

    Young players don't get game time, that's the whole point of the discussion. H Byrne is older than DuPoint etc. It was listed out the options at 10 for France, all younger or same age as H Byrne and all ave 50 starts in Top14 or Europe.

    Crowley was going to France to play, in reality we could be 2023 before he is even close to starting in Europe for Munster, not because he isn't good enough but because other players are good and in front of him

    Dupont is 24 years old. Harry Byrne is not older than him.

    Harry Byrne made his debut at 20 for Leinster, he was still in school at 18. Not sure how much faster they could have progressed him given he was playing irish 20s for 2 seasons which were a priority for his development and he dealt with injuries as he matured physically.

    Since debuting he has played 18 times Leinster while also having lost appearances due to injury and covid. He is still just 21.

    Those French 10s all entered pro setups at a much earlier age than Irish 10s, leaving school earlier etc. They also play in a better organised deeper league with more teams so of course there are more development opportunities.


  • #9
    CrazyFather1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 844 ✭✭✭CrazyFather1


    bayern wrote: »
    Yes they do.

    There are many many teamsheets available online that prove this fact.

    Wasn't aware, wasn't it a big discussion before and I thought the provinces had decided they wouldn't play?
    Do all the academy player also play in AIL?


  • #10
    bayern
    Registered Users Posts: 1,024 ✭✭✭bayern


    CrazyFather1 wrote: »
    Wasn't aware, wasn't it a big discussion before and I thought the provinces had decided they wouldn't play?
    Do all the academy player also play in AIL?

    Academy players played AIL when they were fit and available.. sometimes they've not been available due to Irish u20s or provincial commitments.


  • #11
    CrazyFather1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 844 ✭✭✭CrazyFather1


    bayern wrote: »
    Academy players played AIL when they were fit and available.. sometimes they've not been available due to Irish u20s or provincial commitments.

    No harm to the AIL but really it doesn't seem to be giving the academy players they challenge they need.

    I personally don't see the issue with shipping off some young players to another league for a season or two, with the option to return, while they get experience


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  • #12
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭[Deleted User]


    bayern wrote: »
    Dupont is 24 years old. Harry Byrne is not older than him.

    Harry Byrne made his debut at 20 for Leinster, he was still in school at 18. Not sure how much faster they could have progressed him given he was playing irish 20s for 2 seasons which were a priority for his development and he dealt with injuries as he matured physically.

    Since debuting he has played 18 times Leinster while also having lost appearances due to injury and covid. He is still just 21.

    Those French 10s all entered pro setups at a much earlier age than Irish 10s, leaving school earlier etc. They also play in a better organised deeper league with more teams so of course there are more development opportunities.

    He obviously meant N'tamack, not Dupont but you knew that.

    what you state in bold above effectively means that young 10's in Ireland are at a disadvantage in terms of development. 10's need game time for development above all other positions.

    this has been thrown into sharp relief in the current 10 crisis.

    Ireland are at a disadvantage by now not having developed the potential fully compared to what players in other countries, say France can do.

    not just N'tamack, Jalibert playing today, Carbonel.

    in England you have Smith, Umaga..

    some creative solutions should be looked at, instead of just saying that it is what it is


  • #13
    bayern
    Registered Users Posts: 1,024 ✭✭✭bayern


    CrazyFather1 wrote: »
    No harm to the AIL but really it doesn't seem to be giving the academy players they challenge they need.

    I personally don't see the issue with shipping off some young players to another league for a season or two, with the option to return, while they get experience

    How is that?

    You don't seem to have much knowledge of AIL and how academy players perform at that level, so to make such a statement seems to reaching, at best.


  • #14
    CrazyFather1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 844 ✭✭✭CrazyFather1


    bayern wrote: »
    How is that?

    You don't seem to have much knowledge of AIL and how academy players perform at that level, so to make such a statement seems to reaching, at best.

    Have you listened to the podcast? you had Jackman etc all discussing this. It is not a new topic. Is Jackman not a coach in the AIL.
    Not one of them mentioned using the AIL.

    I am sure it was discussed on the 42 podcast as well.
    I expect Jackman knows a little more than me or you.


  • #15
    bayern
    Registered Users Posts: 1,024 ✭✭✭bayern


    glasso wrote: »
    He obviously meant N'tamack, not Dupont but you knew that.

    what you state in bold above effectively means that young 10's in Ireland are at a disadvantage in terms of development. 10's need game time for development above all other positions.

    this has been thrown into sharp relief in the current 10 crisis.

    Ireland are at a disadvantage by now not having developed the potential fully compared to what players in other countries, say France can do.

    not just N'tamack, Jalibert playing today, Carbonel.

    in England you have Smith, Umaga..

    some creative solutions should be looked at, instead of just saying that it is what it is

    I would say 9's need just as much game time as 10's to develop.

    so what you'd have young irish outhalves leave school at 16?

    or sent to france or england upon leaving school for a season?


  • #16
    Buer
    Registered Users Posts: 24,169 ✭✭✭✭Buer


    CrazyFather1 wrote: »
    Have you listened to the podcast? you had Jackman etc all discussing this. It is not a new topic. Is Jackman not a coach in the AIL.
    Not one of them mentioned using the AIL.

    Jackman coaches in the Leinster Senior League and doesn't know his arse from his elbow.


  • #17
    CrazyFather1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 844 ✭✭✭CrazyFather1


    Buer wrote: »
    Jackman coaches in the Leinster Senior League and doesn't know his arse from his elbow.

    Which professional clubs have you coached?


  • #18
    Squidgy Black
    Registered Users Posts: 21,604 ✭✭✭✭Squidgy Black


    CrazyFather1 wrote: »
    Have you listened to the podcast? you had Jackman etc all discussing this. It is not a new topic. Is Jackman not a coach in the AIL.
    Not one of them mentioned using the AIL.

    I am sure it was discussed on the 42 podcast as well.
    I expect Jackman knows a little more than me or you.

    Nope Jackman's a coach for Bective in the Leinster League. Isn't involved in the AIL at all, and hasn't really been for quite some time.


  • #19
    bayern
    Registered Users Posts: 1,024 ✭✭✭bayern


    CrazyFather1 wrote: »
    Have you listened to the podcast? you had Jackman etc all discussing this. It is not a new topic. Is Jackman not a coach in the AIL.
    Not one of them mentioned using the AIL.

    I am sure it was discussed on the 42 podcast as well.
    I expect Jackman knows a little more than me or you.

    Bernard Jackman the fountain of all rugby knowledge isn't an AIL coach.


  • #20
    CrazyFather1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 844 ✭✭✭CrazyFather1


    Squidgy Black wrote: »
    Nope Jackman's a coach for Bective in the Leinster League. Isn't involved in the AIL at all, and hasn't really been for quite some time.

    I wasn't aware. I would expect he has more experience of the professional game in both Ireland & France. The AIL was never mentioned by anyone, not just Jackman


  • #21
    pickarooney
    Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 35,025 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    bayern wrote: »
    Dupont is 24 years old. Harry Byrne is not older than him.

    Harry Byrne made his debut at 20 for Leinster, he was still in school at 18. Not sure how much faster they could have progressed him given he was playing irish 20s for 2 seasons which were a priority for his development and he dealt with injuries as he matured physically.

    Since debuting he has played 18 times Leinster while also having lost appearances due to injury and covid. He is still just 21.

    Those French 10s all entered pro setups at a much earlier age than Irish 10s, leaving school earlier etc. They also play in a better organised deeper league with more teams so of course there are more development opportunities.

    Ntamack finished school at 18 after his leaving cert equivalent. Jalibert too. Dupont has a college degree.


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  • #22
    bayern
    Registered Users Posts: 1,024 ✭✭✭bayern


    CrazyFather1 wrote: »
    I wasn't aware. I would expect he has more experience of the professional game in both Ireland & France. The AIL was never mentioned by anyone, not just Jackman

    that doesn't mean it's not without merit.


  • #23
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭[Deleted User]


    bayern wrote: »
    I would say 9's need just as much game time as 10's to develop.

    so what you'd have young irish outhalves leave school at 16?

    or sent to france or england upon leaving school for a season?

    Jackman proposed loans here

    https://www.the42.ie/the42-rugby-weekly-out-half-5352148-Feb2021/

    it's done in other sports like soccer all the time.

    it's not rocket science

    with only 4 teams, poor pro 14 games, stacked roster (including guys who will be never consistent upper international class ahead in pecking order)

    a bit of creativity is needed

    the IRFU and the provinces could work it out if the desire is there

    already had the opportunity with the afore mentioned ROG La Rochelle opp.


  • #24
    bayern
    Registered Users Posts: 1,024 ✭✭✭bayern


    pickarooney wrote: »
    Ntamack finished school at 18 after his leaving cert equivalent. Jalibert too. Dupont has a college degree.

    thats interesting I'm no expert on the french education system..

    I guess then do people want to see Irish 18 year olds playing professional rugby immediately upon leaving school and not spending a season or two maturing on and off the field playing irish 20's and AIL rugby?


  • #25
    CrazyFather1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 844 ✭✭✭CrazyFather1


    bayern wrote: »
    that doesn't mean it's not without merit.

    Sorry I will take the opinion of professional coach's, Lenihan was also on the podcast and he is heavily invested in Cork Con, AIL I think

    Sticking a load of young players into a non professional league? while at the same time French players are playing in a professional league.


  • #26
    CrazyFather1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 844 ✭✭✭CrazyFather1


    bayern wrote: »
    thats interesting I'm no expert on the french education system..

    I guess then do people want to see Irish 18 year olds playing professional rugby immediately upon leaving school and not spending a season or two maturing on and off the field playing irish 20's and AIL rugby?

    Maybe listen to the podcast, it is covered in detail. Plus it is not every player. It would be those ready.


  • #27
    bayern
    Registered Users Posts: 1,024 ✭✭✭bayern


    glasso wrote: »
    Jackman proposed loans here

    https://www.the42.ie/the42-rugby-weekly-out-half-5352148-Feb2021/

    it's done in other sports like soccer all the time.

    it's not rocket science

    with only 4 teams, poor pro 14 games, stacked roster (including guys who will be never consistent upper international class ahead in pecking order)

    a bit of creativity is needed

    the IRFU and the provinces could work it out if the desire is there

    already had the opportunity with the afore mentioned ROG La Rochelle opp.

    so someone like Harry Byrne should have been loaned to a french team when he left school or when?

    after his irish 20's seasons?


  • #28
    Mimon
    Registered Users Posts: 1,474 ✭✭✭Mimon


    Loaning out to English and French second divisions would probably work from the provinces POV and for these teams also.


  • #29
    bayern
    Registered Users Posts: 1,024 ✭✭✭bayern


    CrazyFather1 wrote: »
    Maybe listen to the podcast, it is covered in detail. Plus it is not every player. It would be those ready.

    i've listened to it. it's not covered in detail, loans are thrown out as some sort of panacea to all irish rugbys ills when it comes to developing young players.

    An issue that does not exist in Leinster.


  • #30
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭[Deleted User]


    bayern wrote: »
    so loan who? Harry Byrne to a french team when was 19?

    or 20 more apt probably

    yes. why not. France or England.

    somewhere where there is a demand and where he'll get better quality games and then come back in a year.

    It's not like they were going to play him much in Ireland aside from low-quality games where little is learned during that year.

    and he wasn't developed (due to above) so was not going to be playing internationally.

    it's pretty simple stuff.


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  • #31
    bayern
    Registered Users Posts: 1,024 ✭✭✭bayern


    Mimon wrote: »
    Loaning out to English and French second divisions would probably work from the provinces POV and for these teams also.

    at what age?


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