power from meter box

dolittle · 10-02-2021 2:51pm #1

is it within the rules to have an isolator mounted in the meter box to break the feed from the ESB meter to the house distribution board?
thereby allowing a supply to be fed from the isolator to a garden shed
thank you all in advance

Hmob · 10-02-2021 3:12pm

dolittle wrote: »

is it within the rules to have an isolator mounted in the meter box to break the feed from the ESB meter to the house distribution board?
thereby allowing a supply to be fed from the isolator to a garden shed
thank you all in advance

There's a MPD (main protective device)fitted at the cabinet, it's not an isolator as such but a protective device

Branching off to the garden wouldn't be allowed, car charging yes at some point , anything else no.

Hmob · 10-02-2021 3:14pm

Its often brought up by customers etc about branching off at the cabinet due to the convenience

However everything should be fed from the main distribution board and main isolator at the MDB

Hmob · 10-02-2021 3:20pm

There was isolators in cabinets at one stage before the MPDs came in but don't think they're used anymore

Open to correction if they're still in use in series with the MPD but I don't think so

Either way branching off to the garden isn't allowed

irishfire · 10-02-2021 5:35pm

Branching off in the meter box is about to be allowed for EV chargers (coming months), it's expected that this will be extended to allow connection to a garage etc down the line but this is not in any way definite

alan4cult · 10-02-2021 5:41pm

Question, if you branch off at meter box how is it possible to have a priority switch between say an electric shower and the car charger? Will there be some switch placed within the external box?

irishfire · 10-02-2021 6:46pm

alan4cult wrote:

Question, if you branch off at meter box how is it possible to have a priority switch between say an electric shower and the car charger? Will there be some switch placed within the external box?

To be honest, I think this is more aimed at homes with nat gas/LPG that don't have electric showers. But it does mean a substantially smaller cable for a current sensing instead of having to bring the supply all the way to the board. It's going to cause issues with space in meter boxes.

Details are going to be very vague until ESB make their publication on the changes and Safe Electric follow up with application guidance.

Hmob · 10-02-2021 6:50pm

alan4cult wrote: »

Question, if you branch off at meter box how is it possible to have a priority switch between say an electric shower and the car charger? Will there be some switch placed within the external box?

You can do it

It would entail a current sensing relay and a contactor ,one of them at the meter cabinet and the other at MDB and a pair in between.

Probably priority for the car

Hmob · 10-02-2021 7:04pm

I can't see any problem with a instantaneous shower and car charger if there's a set time for overnight charging

Interrupting showers with a priority control isn't great so you wouldnt want to be plugging in at random times

Hmob · 10-02-2021 7:09pm

irishfire wrote: »

Branching off in the meter box is about to be allowed for EV chargers (coming months), it's expected that this will be extended to allow connection to a garage etc down the line but this is not in any way definite

Can't see any scenario in which a garage should be allowed

Hmob · 11-02-2021 12:53am

There's big forces behind the car charger at the cabinet

At a guess green lobby, Esbn, government , car manufacturers so was always going to be forced in

I don't know much about it

Anything beyond car charger gets messy in relation to main isolation

Anything can and will be connected to a garage later, pond pumps , fountains and garden lights etc.

The wiring rules expect domestic electrical work may be carried out by diy persons.So they go to turn off at the main board and bang.

Unless they have something in mind for this scenario?

alan4cult · 11-02-2021 1:06am

Plus what happens down the line if you want to charge multiple cars. I believe dual chargers are available but more than 2 cars I guess one car will have to wait for the next night.

Hmob · 11-02-2021 9:50am

alan4cult wrote: »

Plus what happens down the line if you want to charge multiple cars. I believe dual chargers are available but more than 2 cars I guess one car will have to wait for the next night.

What's happening round fast charging

I only heard a soundbyte about this, will that solve your question on 2 cars and 1 standard supply?

irishfire · 11-02-2021 2:33pm

Hmob wrote:

Unless they have something in mind for this scenario?

It's extremely hard to follow your posts.

To answer your question the house board becomes a sub board and isolates all internal equipment, the meter cabinet will house protection/isolation for all downstream equipment (house/EV charger/garage etc included). It is likely to be a condition of the derogation that proper protective devices need to be fitted for all cables leaving the meter cabinet, so isolation will be created at this point for all outgoing supplies.

I don't see a situation where small loads like ponds etc will be fed in this way, and even if they are, will be subject to the normal protection requirements so again I don't see an issue once labelled at the outlet.

I think we can all agree that the works we are discussing are not expected to be done DIY by the regs and indeed it'd be illegal to do so, and that's before considering that ESBN will be involved and likely require a cert to re-energise.

If you have a suitably sized supply I can't see any issue with dual chargers or fast chargers. But we are quickly approaching a situation where properly designed controls will be required to make all this a reality.

Hmob · 11-02-2021 2:44pm

irishfire wrote: »

It's extremely hard to follow your posts.

To answer your question the house board becomes a sub board and isolates all internal equipment, the meter cabinet will house protection/isolation for all downstream equipment (house/EV charger/garage etc included). It is likely to be a condition of the derogation that proper protective devices need to be fitted for all cables leaving the meter cabinet, so isolation will be created at this point for all outgoing supplies.

I don't see a situation where small loads like ponds etc will be fed in this way, and even if they are, will be subject to the normal protection requirements so again I don't see an issue once labelled at the outlet.

I think we can all agree that the works we are discussing are not expected to be done DIY by the regs and indeed it'd be illegal to do so, and that's before considering that ESBN will be involved and likely require a cert to re-energise.

If you have a suitably sized supply I can't see any issue with dual chargers or fast chargers. But we are quickly approaching a situation where properly designed controls will be required to make all this a reality.

Not sure what's extremely hard to follow?

ABC of electrical installation work is main isolation at main distribution board

Main isolation inside ESBN meter cabinet is questionable esp. if feeding more than car charger

You said garages may be added

If you add garages ,other equipment may be connected to the garage supply later

I don't see any way garages should be added to car charging

irishfire · 11-02-2021 2:46pm

Hmob wrote:

ABC of electrical installation work is main isolation at main distribution board

Main distribution board is located in the meter cabinet in this installation arrangement.

Extremely common in commercial and industrial installations and shouldn't be a problem to anyone working on an installation when labelled properly.

Hmob · 11-02-2021 3:30pm

irishfire wrote: »

Main distribution board is located in the meter cabinet in this installation arrangement.

Extremely common in commercial and industrial installations and shouldn't be a problem to anyone working on an installation when labelled properly.

I get that but it's never been the norm for consumers equipment inside a locked meter cabinet

On the rest;

Rules allow for diy domestic work, "minor works" , not the cabinet work obviously

On the issue of "house board becoming a sub board isolating all internal equipment"

True but if you add a garage to main board at meter cabinet , you will likely end up with some external equipment wired from house board and some from main board at cabinet

11-02-2021 5:09pm

Hmob wrote: »

Rules allow for diy domestic work, "minor works" , not the cabinet work obviously

No, the rules do not get into who is permitted to do what.

Suppling an EV charging point or anything other than the main distribution board from the meter cabinet is not ideal IMHO.

Hmob · 11-02-2021 6:17pm

2011 wrote: »

No, the rules do not get into who is permitted to do what.

Suppling an EV charging point or anything other than the main distribution board from the meter cabinet is not ideal IMHO.

They don't specify who can do what but there is an acceptance that domestic electrical work may be diy and domestic rules reflect this

Industrial and commercial will generally be carried out by competent persons

Agree that Supplying equipment from the cabinet is not ideal at all

Likely be room for hazardous situations with non competent persons if it's extended to garages

11-02-2021 8:00pm

Hmob wrote: »

They don't specify who can do what but there is an acceptance that domestic electrical work may be diy and domestic rules reflect this

Where do the rules "reflect" this?

Edit: The only argument I can think of is insisting on RCD protection for lighting circuits but that is pretty flimsy. I can’t think of anything else to support your argument.

Hmob · 11-02-2021 8:47pm

2011 wrote: »

Where do the rules "reflect" this?

Rcd protection all circuits-ET10101

Ring Final Circuits Removed from Kitchens.

Minor Works- addition of wiring with no requirement for testing

-The first 2 protect the homeowner from incompetence downstream of the distribution board.

-The 3rd allows diy work to be carried out with no testing

_

11-02-2021 9:02pm

Hmob wrote: »

Rcd protection all circuits-ET10101

I don't believe that it is all circuits, it does not apply to some fixed appliances such as cookers.

It does apply to domestic lighting circuits as I stated in my last post, but I still think that this is not sufficient to conclude that the rules are designed to somehow support DIY electrcial work.

Ring Final Circuits Removed from Kitchens.

I can't see how this is of any real benefit to DIYer's.

Minor Works- addition of wiring with no requirement for testing

This has nothing to do with the rules, in fact when I search my online version of IS10101 the word "minor" appears exactly zero times.

-The first 2 protect the homeowner from incompetence downstream of the distribution board.

Unfortunately nothing can protect a homeowner from incompetence

Now you perhaps you can argue that under some circumstances it mitigates the risk to some extent but I would not think that this should be seen as a green light to DIYers to "have a go".
It certainly does not prevent someone from doing something daft.

-The 3rd allows diy work to be carried out with no testing

There is no mention of any derogation for testing for anyone anywhere in the rules.

Hmob · 11-02-2021 9:07pm

2011 wrote: »

I don't believe that it is all circuits, it does not apply to fixed appliances such as cookers.

It does apply to domestic lighting circuits as I stated in my last post, but I still think that this is not sufficient to are that the rules are designed to somehow support DIY electrcial work.

I can't see how this is of any real benefit to DIYer's.

This has nothing to do with the rules, in fact when I search my online version of IS10101 the word "minor" appears exactly zero times.

Unfortunately nothing can protect a homeowner from incompetence

Now you perhaps you can argue that under some circumstances it mitigates the risk but I would not think that this should be seen as a green light to DIYers to "have a go".

There is no mention of any derogation for testing for anyone anywhere in the rules.

Apologies ,RCD protection for all domestic lighting circuits

Point still stands

Of course as you've shown my examples can be argued either way

Hmob · 11-02-2021 9:13pm

Double Pole Main Isolation

Is that in ET10101 for domestic installations?

I'm not up to speed on it yet

What's that for?

11-02-2021 9:22pm

Hmob wrote: »

Of course as you've shown my examples can be argued either way

I guess my main point is that the rules do not get into or even mention restricted works or minor works. TC2 simply don’t go there, just like they don’t get into rates of pay for electricians.

Jonathan · 07-09-2021 4:40pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/116234178#Comment_116234178

Any word on whether this has been permitted yet? I'm looking to get an EV charge point installed, and installer has suggested this. I thought they would have to take supply from CU, but he said could take it from meter box instead?

NickNickleby · 07-09-2021 4:54pm

My meter and consumer unit are in the same "locked" cabinet in the porch. I leave the little triangular key nearby, in case of emergency.

I'm wondering why the distinction of whether an EV charge point should be off the CU or the meter box. Is it simply to make wiring it easier - given that modern day meter boxes are outside?

Thanks.

Ps, not an electrician, just like to be reasonably abreast of stuff, in case it becomes relevant to my house.

Jonathan · 07-09-2021 5:08pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117859232#Comment_117859232

To answer my own question, it appears that this is has now been passed, but would appreciate if a REC could confirm!

https://safeelectric.ie/contractors/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2021/03/MarchNewsletterSafeElecFinal-1.pdf

See pages 6 & 7

Buffman · 07-09-2021 5:09pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117859232#Comment_117859232

Ye, it's permitted. Have a read though this thread. https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2057839190/home-charge-points-purchase-problems-questions-see-mod-note-post-1

Basically a second CU can be installed in the meter box for charging.

Buffman · 07-09-2021 5:19pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117859288#Comment_117859288

It's exactly that, some older houses could have to CU well inside the house and running cables back would be very difficult and expensive for no good reason. Allowing the installation of the second CU at the meter with signage at the main CU indicating the presence of a second CU is a reasonable solution.

NickNickleby · 07-09-2021 7:45pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117859391#Comment_117859391

Excellent, thanks for taking the time to answer my question.

power from meter box

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