Top young scrumhalves in Ireland

bayern · 27-01-2021 4:26pm #1

1. Craig Casey(21/Munster)
2. Nathan Doak(19/Ulster)
3. Colm Reilly(21/Connacht)
4. Lewis Finlay(21/Ulster)
5. Hugh O'Sullivan(22/Leinster)

All the provinces bar Leinster have their future 1st 9 in their squad. How long it will take Casey to overtake Murray is impossible to know. While Doak is on the fast track in Ulster.

Chico Flores · 27-01-2021 9:37pm

bayern wrote: »

1. Craig Casey(21/Munster)
2. Nathan Doak(19/Ulster)
3. Colm Reilly(21/Connacht)
4. Lewis Finlay(21/Ulster)
5. Hugh O'Sullivan(22/Leinster)

All the provinces bar Leinster have their future 1st 9 in their squad. How long it will take Casey to overtake Murray is impossible to know. While Doak is on the fast track in Ulster.

I don’t think Hugh O Sullivan is better than Roman Osborne.

bayern · 27-01-2021 9:38pm

Chico Flores wrote: »

I don’t think Hugh O Sullivan is better than Roman Osborne.

Rowan Osborne is 24, only included players 23 and under.

Don't think Leinster coaches agree with you.

Either way neither are future internationals or 1st choice 9's at leinster.

Chico Flores · 27-01-2021 9:40pm

bayern wrote: »

Rowan Osborne is 24.

And O Sullivan is 23 in a month. I actually don’t think he is a good scrum half full stop. Consider likes of Patterson and Foley better than him and they aren’t all that.

Edit- all right with the pedantic bolding on the W. Was obviously an auto correct. And you didn’t say u23 and that’s my opinion, no more than the above is yours.

I think Osbourne proved to be ahead in patches last year but as you said, none of the options of those few are great

bayern · 27-01-2021 9:42pm

Chico Flores wrote: »

And O Sullivan is 23 in a month. I actually don’t think he is a good scrum half full stop. Consider likes of Patterson and Foley better than him and they aren’t all that.

23 in a month still fits 23 and under.

O'Sullivan is rated ahead of the other young 9's at Leinster by the coaches for whatever that is worth. As I said none of them are future internationals or particularly highly rated.

Chico Flores · 27-01-2021 9:46pm

bayern wrote: »

23 in a month still fits 23 and under.

O'Sullivan is rated ahead of the other young 9's at Leinster by the coaches for whatever that is worth. As I said none of them are future internationals or particularly highly rated.

And I agreed, as edit above has. You didn’t say anything about u23. Depending on your age I assume some people would consider both 23 and 24 young.

But moot point as you said, neither are great. Osbourne starting In a win v Munster swings it for me on them.

bayern · 27-01-2021 9:53pm

Osborne is same age grade as Ryan, Connors etc. Wouldn't consider them young players.

HOS and Patterson, are two age grades below Osborne same group as Doris, TOB etc. Would still consider them relatively young fwiw.

Leinster have three sub academy 9's: Rob Gilsenan, Ben Murphy and Will Reilly. You'd hope one of them could push for an academy place but given the lack of rugby...

after that there is a bunch of 9's to keep an eye on, but again very little rugby for them to improve.. you'd hope that one of them has developed and honed a bullet pass while in lockdown.

launish116 · 27-01-2021 10:25pm

Doak seems to be already pencilled in by Ulster management on the basis of his new contract. Don’t fully see it myself yet, still feel Finlay is ahead of him. Hopefully both can bounce of one another for years to come. Would really help Ulster.

bayern · 27-01-2021 10:26pm

launish116 wrote: »

Doak seems to be already pencilled in by Ulster management on the basis of his new contract. Don’t fully see it myself yet, still feel Finlay is ahead of him. Hopefully both can bounce of one another for years to come. Would really help Ulster.

you'd expect Conor McKee to join the academy this summer too.. and i've heard good things about James Wright who was due to be an irish u18 intl in 2020.

launish116 · 27-01-2021 10:43pm

bayern wrote: »

you'd expect Conor McKee to join the academy this summer too.. and i've heard good things about James Wright who was due to be an irish u18 intl in 2020.

Hopefully Ulster keep their options open! Sure wouldn’t be like us to produce more backs.

The Inbetween is mine · 28-01-2021 1:52am

You might be adding young Ethan Coughlan to that list soon

bayern · 28-01-2021 9:35am

The Inbetween is mine wrote: »

You might be adding young Ethan Coughlan to that list soon

Yep, not contracted yet though.

Of the uncontracted underage 9's in ireland:

1. Rob Gilsenan(Leinster)
2. Ethan Coughlan(Munster)
3. Conor McKee(Ulster)
4. Will Reilly(Leinster)
5. Ben Murphy(Leinster)

Tim Robbins · 02-02-2021 6:44pm

bayern wrote: »

1. Craig Casey(21/Munster)
2. Nathan Doak(19/Ulster)
3. Colm Reilly(21/Connacht)
4. Lewis Finlay(21/Ulster)
5. Hugh O'Sullivan(22/Leinster)

All the provinces bar Leinster have their future 1st 9 in their squad. How long it will take Casey to overtake Murray is impossible to know. While Doak is on the fast track in Ulster.

Sounds nuts but I think Harry Byrne could play nine and in Ireland we shouldn't be so against the idea of moving players around between 9 and 10 or 10 and12 or 10 and 15 more. Most 10's should be able to cover one of 9, 12, 15 and if they can't it doesn't much for the skill set.

Lost Ormond · 02-02-2021 6:54pm

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Sounds nuts but I think Harry Byrne could play nine and in Ireland we shouldn't be so against the idea of moving players around between 9 and 10 or 10 and12 or 10 and 15 more. Most 10's should be able to cover one of 9, 12, 15 and if they can't it doesn't much for the skill set.

He probably could but he isnt needed or likely to play there.
We should be getting more players to move around positions more at age grade but should be getting more players to play clubs as well as schools to help that.
Have players from different schools playing with each other more often especially in Dublin/Ulster where schools game is more prominent.

Hands Like Flippers · 02-02-2021 9:19pm

bayern wrote: »

Yep, not contracted yet though.

Of the uncontracted underage 9's in ireland:

1. Rob Gilsenan(Leinster)
2. Ethan Coughlan(Munster)
3. Conor McKee(Ulster)
4. Will Reilly(Leinster)
5. Ben Murphy(Leinster)

I don't know much about 1 and 5 above but thought Murphy would be ahead of EC and CMCK. Did he not get game time for u20 last year whereas CMCK didn't? I know both were a year young. Watched EC a bit as well in inter pros and u18 clubs last year. Would have had Murphy ahead but maybe EC has stepped up this year.

So hard to know with so little game time.

Where do you get all your info btw? Is there a good website?

ionadnapokot · 02-02-2021 11:47pm

So Murphy wasn’t resigned by Munster?

bayern · 03-02-2021 9:02am

ionadnapokot wrote: »

So Murphy wasn’t resigned by Munster?

No would seem he finished up with them at christmas.

Hands Like Flippers · 08-02-2021 7:32pm

Should young SH's be aspiring to be like C MURRAY or A DUPONT at this point? The slow ruck / box kicking approach just doesn't seem to work against good opposition although we keep doing it. Or, perhaps the FD Klerk approach of kicking and being a threat?

bayern · 08-02-2021 8:17pm

is Murray more achievable for young irish 9, certainly someone like Nathan Doak looks to be very much in the Murray mold.

Hands Like Flippers · 09-02-2021 1:35am

bayern wrote: »

is Murray more achievable for young irish 9, certainly someone like Nathan Doak looks to be very much in the Murray mold.

Bit disappointing if we continue with the slow ruck ball box kick approach. ROG on OTB said recently that Dupont is a shoo in for player of the year but then said C Murray is still the man. Yet we are still opting for the slow approach. JGP is at least trying to speed us up.

theVersatile · 09-02-2021 11:58am

All young scrunhalves work on their fundamentals first - the pace they bring comes as a bonus. Passing and kicking from the base are the key skills - and if you can do that at a high tempo and threaten the fringed too, then brilliant! Craig Casey isn't brilliant simply because he runs around like he's downed a six can of Red Bull, it's the fact that he combines it with incredibly crisp, accurate, consistent passing. When he develops his kicking game more, he will be the starting Irish 9 post Murray.

Same with Dupont - he's the full package. He isn't a great Scrum Half because he scores tries and flies around like he'll die if his heart rate drops below 120 - it's everything else he does which compliments that. His kicking (see Fickou try), his IQ (see his own try) and his passing inviting forwards onto the ball. But the fundamentals of passing and kicking is where you start.

Paddy Patterson is a great example. When he come on against Ulster A a few weeks ago - the guy was buzzing and tearing up the ground beneath him; but his passing was also sporadic and his kicking was distinctly average. As such, it wasn't a good cameo for him - because his core skills weren't there (whether that be nerves or a defecit of skill, I can't comment)

bayern · 09-02-2021 2:58pm

Yep, the vast majority of irish scrumhalves simply don't have good enough basic skills to be elite scrumhalves.

Tim Robbins · 09-02-2021 10:30pm

theVersatile wrote: »

All young scrunhalves work on their fundamentals first - the pace they bring comes as a bonus. Passing and kicking from the base are the key skills - and if you can do that at a high tempo and threaten the fringed too, then brilliant! Craig Casey isn't brilliant simply because he runs around like he's downed a six can of Red Bull, it's the fact that he combines it with incredibly crisp, accurate, consistent passing. When he develops his kicking game more, he will be the starting Irish 9 post Murray.

Same with Dupont - he's the full package. He isn't a great Scrum Half because he scores tries and flies around like he'll die if his heart rate drops below 120 - it's everything else he does which compliments that. His kicking (see Fickou try), his IQ (see his own try) and his passing inviting forwards onto the ball. But the fundamentals of passing and kicking is where you start.

Paddy Patterson is a great example. When he come on against Ulster A a few weeks ago - the guy was buzzing and tearing up the ground beneath him; but his passing was also sporadic and his kicking was distinctly average. As such, it wasn't a good cameo for him - because his core skills weren't there (whether that be nerves or a defecit of skill, I can't comment)

To add to your point about the pass, it is the ability to get to read the play, get to the ruck, know where the ball is and get your hands on it. Stringer didn't just have a great pass but he was really quick at getting to the ruck and putting his hands on the ball.

When I saw Patterson at schools level I really thought he was something special. But I guess when players are professionally trained they will look professional. Not sure if he has kicked on that extra level since Schools.

Casey - looks a super player. But I wonder will be one of those players that even if he does make the top grade, teams will be able to figure him out and use his lack of size against him at the top level.

theVersatile · 09-02-2021 11:55pm

Tim Robbins wrote: »

To add to your point about the pass, it is the ability to get to read the play, get to the ruck, know where the ball is and get your hands on it. Stringer didn't just have a great pass but he was really quick at getting to the ruck and putting his hands on the ball.

When I saw Patterson at schools level I really thought he was something special. But I guess when players are professionally trained they will look professional. Not sure if he has kicked on that extra level since Schools.

Casey - looks a super player. But I wonder will be one of those players that even if he does make the top grade, teams will be able to figure him out and use his lack of size against him at the top level.

Great points. That assessment of Patterson was purely form that single A game, so I've no doubt he may be a fantastic player (Ryan Baird wouldn't have looked like an Irish player in that game, yet look where he is now). He was just an example. I could've said Stephen Varney too from the Italian game (but he's only going to improve as he's 19 years of age).

I imagine Casey will continue to work on tackling (one of them Cardiff centres made him look like a fool earlier in the season - mind he also flattened Jordan Joseph playing 20s) ; but it won't be too much of a problem if he's employed in a defensive system which puts him behind the defensive line fairly often.

bayern · 10-02-2021 9:28am

If Patterson was a fantastic player he'd be playing regularly for Leinster, But he doesn't execute his basics at a consistently high level to be a regular for a province. Which has been the biggest issue with 9's produced in Leinster, Luke McGrath is a very good scrumhalf even without a consistently excellent pass.. Cooney had to leave to get opportunities to develop, although he'd probably have gotten there eventually at Leinster once MOC left. After that McCarthy to the risk of leaving but that didn't work out and now someone like O'Sullivan needs significant game time to develop but it's unlikely he will get that at leinster outside a huge injury crisis. Finally Foley is another scrumhalf who needs to improve his basic skill of passing.

Outside of Casey, Munster have produced no top level quality 9's since Murray emerged 10+ years ago. Is Casey a product of improved scrumhalf development systems or an anomaly?

Ulster haven't produced any of note in over a decade.

Connacht have done a very good job at developing 9's under Lam/Carolan.

Tim Robbins · 17-02-2021 6:07pm

bayern wrote: »

If Patterson was a fantastic player he'd be playing regularly for Leinster, But he doesn't execute his basics at a consistently high level to be a regular for a province. Which has been the biggest issue with 9's produced in Leinster, Luke McGrath is a very good scrumhalf even without a consistently excellent pass.. Cooney had to leave to get opportunities to develop, although he'd probably have gotten there eventually at Leinster once MOC left. After that McCarthy to the risk of leaving but that didn't work out and now someone like O'Sullivan needs significant game time to develop but it's unlikely he will get that at leinster outside a huge injury crisis. Finally Foley is another scrumhalf who needs to improve his basic skill of passing.

Outside of Casey, Munster have produced no top level quality 9's since Murray emerged 10+ years ago. Is Casey a product of improved scrumhalf development systems or an anomaly?

Ulster haven't produced any of note in over a decade.

Connacht have done a very good job at developing 9's under Lam/Carolan.

His (Patterson's) cousin was playing nine for Gonzaga and looked really good as well. What happened to him?

It's amazing what happens to players between 18 and 21. Joey was playing full back for Blackrock and just looked good but really kicked on around age 20.

bayern · 17-02-2021 6:51pm

Tim Robbins wrote: »

His (Patterson's) cousin was playing nine for Gonzaga and looked really good as well. What happened to him?

It's amazing what happens to players between 18 and 21. Joey was playing full back for Blackrock and just looked good but really kicked on around age 20.

James Kenny couldn't stay healthy after leaving school for his u20 season.. was involved with leinster sub academy for a time but couldn't push on due to injuries.

Starting 9 for Lansdowne until lockdown.

CowboyTed · 17-02-2021 11:37pm

bayern wrote: »

Yep, the vast majority of irish scrumhalves simply don't have good enough basic skills to be elite scrumhalves.

Marmion has had 7 starts for Ireland.In those 7 he:
Beat New Zealand and well out performed Aaron Smith by the New Zealand Hearld Standards.
"Replacement for injured Conor Murray but proved he isn't necessarily second best."
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/all-blacks-v-ireland-player-ratings-from-dublin-test/32GRDVZIOT75GDYOEVJA3ADC2Y/

Beat England
Kieran Marmion, scrum-half, 8/10
"A nation held its breath over the injured Conor Murray but he played a marvellous game full of clever probing and passing. An intensely competitive player and a splendid day"
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2017/mar/19/ireland-england-six-nations-players-rated

He also beat Wales while ranked the No.1 in the world. But it was a warm up match for a world cup which he wasn't bough to and then dropped.

Is that good enough?

And by the way you are going to mention Caolin Blade and the answer is he also a fine player and is 26. There is a summarise that Marmion must have gone backwards to be competing with him. But Blade & John Cooney were fighting for the bench in Connacht when he was 22.

bayern · 18-02-2021 12:34am

CowboyTed wrote: »

Marmion has had 7 starts for Ireland.In those 7 he:
Beat New Zealand and well out performed Aaron Smith by the New Zealand Hearld Standards.
"Replacement for injured Conor Murray but proved he isn't necessarily second best."
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/all-blacks-v-ireland-player-ratings-from-dublin-test/32GRDVZIOT75GDYOEVJA3ADC2Y/

Beat England
Kieran Marmion, scrum-half, 8/10
"A nation held its breath over the injured Conor Murray but he played a marvellous game full of clever probing and passing. An intensely competitive player and a splendid day"
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2017/mar/19/ireland-england-six-nations-players-rated

He also beat Wales while ranked the No.1 in the world. But it was a warm up match for a world cup which he wasn't bough to and then dropped.

Is that good enough?

And by the way you are going to mention Caolin Blade and the answer is he also a fine player and is 26. There is a summarise that Marmion must have gone backwards to be competing with him. But Blade & John Cooney were fighting for the bench in Connacht when he was 22.

While I think Marmion is a good scrumhalf..I don't think he is an elite one. A view shared by most.

CowboyTed · 18-02-2021 12:52am

bayern wrote: »

While I think Marmion is a good scrumhalf..I don't think he is an elite one. A view shared by most.

Of course you have the right to your opinion, I was just putting a case for him...

At the time Conor Murray was considered the best SH in the world with the main competition from Aaron Smith. I just think Marmion easily held his own in that company.
Honestly at the time I thought it was a lovely contrast between Murray and Marmion... Murray the tactician and Marmion the high tempo game...

Sexton was a player back then with all the tricks in his bag as well... He could play far closer to the line if he wanted...

Top young scrumhalves in Ireland

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