What exactly is happening with AstraZeneca?

Leroy42 · 26-01-2021 02:41PM

Aegir wrote: »

can you show me the part of the contract that states this?

But why are the EU claiming it and AZ not denying it?

I have laid out the basis for the claims, you seem to simply be ignoring the reality on the basis that until you see the contract nothing is known or agreed.

emmalynn19 · 26-01-2021 02:44PM

FileNotFound wrote: »

Ah sure once J&J get going this might be redundant.

1 Billion units of theirs stocked and ability to make 2 billion a year.

That with the fact its a single dose one makes it the real game changer, or one can hope.

Hopefully. Interestingly, J&J have commited to vaccinating all of their staff here as soon as the vaccine is available.

Wonder have Pfizer started vaccinating staff?

Renault 5 · 26-01-2021 02:48PM

Leroy42 wrote: »

But why are the EU claiming it and AZ not denying it?

I have laid out the basis for the claims, you seem to simply be ignoring the reality on the basis that until you see the contract nothing is known or agreed.

AstraZeneca's silence is deafening.

is_that_so · 26-01-2021 02:48PM

emmalynn19 wrote: »

Hopefully. Interestingly, J&J have commited to vaccinating all of their staff here as soon as the vaccine is available.

Wonder have Pfizer started vaccinating staff?

Probably by now, it was mentioned a while back.

KrustyUCC · 26-01-2021 02:50PM

emmalynn19 wrote: »

Hopefully. Interestingly, J&J have commited to vaccinating all of their staff here as soon as the vaccine is available.

Wonder have Pfizer started vaccinating staff?

Yes Pfizer have

Buddy working in Ringaskiddy got his first shot on the 16th of January

is_that_so · 26-01-2021 02:51PM

Renault 5 wrote: »

AstraZeneca's silence is deafening.

No harm to having a little less noise at present but two things needed, how it happened and how can it be fixed.

trellheim · 26-01-2021 02:57PM

Folks.

Facts :

1: The "contract" for AZ vaccine is known as an Advance Purchase Agreement or APA
2: In there is amounts of vaccine, how much paid, and by when delivered, plus lots of legalese "as production allows etc".
3: Although as folks pointed out, no CMA ( Conditional Marketing Approval) has yet been approved for AstraZeneca, we (the EU) paid up front in advance of CMA to secure our place in line for the vaccine WHETHER or NOT approved.

4: Now - and this is important - there are NO public details of the APA out there; it's confidential and both AZ and the Commission have refused to release them citing confidentiality. Anyone stating "outside the terms of the contract" except the Commission or AZ is talking through their hat basically. "Delayed delivery?" - might be covered - do we know ? No idea.

If you dont like this, petitition the Commission to release the APA details, theyve refused the Europarl and everyone else so far.

trellheim · 26-01-2021 03:05PM

I'd add a rider to that saying although AZ APA is confidential, Curevac released their APA publicly , we think because the US regulators forced them to.

See https://ec.europa.eu/info/sites/info/files/curevac_-_redacted_advance_purchase_agreement_0.pdf

(heavily redacted but you get the idea)

NOTE FOR REPETITION THATS THE CUREVAC ONE NOT THE AZ ONE , AND CUREVAC IS NOT APPROVED EITHER.

coastwatch · 26-01-2021 03:07PM

emmalynn19 wrote: »

Hopefully. Interestingly, J&J have commited to vaccinating all of their staff here as soon as the vaccine is available.

Wonder have Pfizer started vaccinating staff?

That doesn't seem right, different standards here I suppose.
Not even Ugur Sahin, the CEO and Co-Founder of Biotech or the employees were allowed to have the vaccine in Germany, because the vaccine priority there is on a legal basis.
At 07:35 in this video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOT8ElNBbo4

FileNotFound · 26-01-2021 03:08PM

emmalynn19 wrote: »

Hopefully. Interestingly, J&J have commited to vaccinating all of their staff here as soon as the vaccine is available.

Wonder have Pfizer started vaccinating staff?

The missus works for them and its only onsite staff - office wfh staff are being promised no such thing.

Pfizer WFH staff told they are not back on site until July. No indication they will get vaccine.

FileNotFound · 26-01-2021 03:10PM

coastwatch wrote: »

That doesn't seem right, different standards here I suppose.
Not even Ugur Sahin, the CEO and Co-Founder of Biotech or the employees were allowed to have the vaccine in Germany, because the vaccine priority there is on a legal basis.
At 07:35 in this video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOT8ElNBbo4

Tiny number of critical staff only - lets not forget these companies still function 100% making all the other life saving medication we need. Pandemic or no.

When you really think about it critical front line workers - Pharma on site staff (which is now critical staff only in most cases) far more important than teachers.

slievenamon fella · 26-01-2021 03:17PM

emmalynn19 wrote: »

Hopefully. Interestingly, J&J have commited to vaccinating all of their staff here as soon as the vaccine is available.

Wonder have Pfizer started vaccinating staff?

Pfizer's started vaccinating staff two weeks ago. was lucky enough to get it myself.

noodler · 26-01-2021 03:23PM

trellheim wrote: »

Folks.

Facts :

1: The "contract" for AZ vaccine is known as an Advance Purchase Agreement or APA
2: In there is amounts of vaccine, how much paid, and by when delivered, plus lots of legalese "as production allows etc".
3: Although as folks pointed out, no CMA ( Conditional Marketing Approval) has yet been approved for AstraZeneca, we (the EU) paid up front in advance of CMA to secure our place in line for the vaccine WHETHER or NOT approved.

4: Now - and this is important - there are NO public details of the APA out there; it's confidential and both AZ and the Commission have refused to release them citing confidentiality. Anyone stating "outside the terms of the contract" except the Commission or AZ is talking through their hat basically. "Delayed delivery?" - might be covered - do we know ? No idea.

If you dont like this, petitition the Commission to release the APA details, theyve refused the Europarl and everyone else so far.

Point 3 is wrong as far as I know.

We do not pay if there is no regulatory approval.

CIARAN_BOYLE · 26-01-2021 03:24PM

noodler wrote: »

Point 3 is wrong as far as I know.

We do not pay if there is no regulatory approval.

We've already paid.

trellheim · 26-01-2021 03:25PM

Point 3 is wrong as far as I know.

We do not pay if there is no regulatory approval.

like I said in point 4 - you might be right - no-one knows. Anyone saying they do know truthfully works for AZ or the Commission. But I do think, as several have said, that money has changed hands already, to help fund vaccine development.

emmalynn19 · 26-01-2021 03:26PM

FileNotFound wrote: »

The missus works for them and its only onsite staff - office wfh staff are being promised no such thing.

Pfizer WFH staff told they are not back on site until July. No indication they will get vaccine.

Interesting my missus works for them too and says she's been told it will be made available to all perm staff and their families.

noodler · 26-01-2021 03:26PM

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

We've already paid.

A small percentage upfront for the r&d. Unknown if this is refundable.

The majority of the bill in all APAs has not been paid.

noodler · 26-01-2021 03:28PM

trellheim wrote: »

like I said in point 4 - you might be right - no-one knows. Anyone saying they do know truthfully works for AZ or the Commission.

Or the HSe, DoH or any parliamentary tbf.

SD is on record saying we don't pay but my sleuthing is letting me down for the link just this second. It was a PQ or Dail speech.

emmalynn19 · 26-01-2021 03:28PM

noodler wrote: »

A small percentage upfront for the r&d. Unknown if this is refundable.

The majority of the bill in all APAs has not been paid.

We've paid for about half the ordered doses up front, not a 'small percentage'

noodler · 26-01-2021 03:31PM

emmalynn19 wrote: »

We've paid for about half the ordered doses up front, not a 'small percentage'

Untrue.

Any evidence to support that?

We will have paid Pfizer more as there one is approved but we have not paid half the bill for any APA where the company has not got regulatory approval.

Melanchthon · 26-01-2021 03:33PM

trellheim wrote: »

like I said in point 4 - you might be right - no-one knows. Anyone saying they do know truthfully works for AZ or the Commission.

Do you think there is any chance that the Commission will ask Astra Zeneca if they can jointly publish the contract, it would clear a lot of this up and reduce criticism that the Commission is both secretive and slow.

I think the Astra Zeneca news is obviously bad for the EU but also feel that it's being approached in this combative way because resentments are building up fast in the EU and Astra Zenecas possible mess up allows attentions to shift to an external factor.

There is obviously angry politics happening at the minute, those German newspapers were citing governor sources when they talked about the 8% effectiveness. Anyone following politics knows that leaking and what's leaked says a lot about the politics in the background.

trellheim · 26-01-2021 03:36PM

Or the HSe, DoH or any parliamentary tbf.

SD is on record saying we don't pay but my sleuthing is letting me down for the link just this second. It was a PQ or Dail speech.

I perhaps am picking you up wrong, but no parliamentary or legislative bodies have the APA , either national or EU. Only Commission or AZ have it. I think I recall that SD's speech re AZ deliveries last Tue or Wed in the Dail had what you are thinking of - but that was only planning guidance being relayed from the Commission.

trellheim · 26-01-2021 03:40PM

Do you think there is any chance that the Commission will ask Astra Zeneca if they can jointly publish the contract, it would clear a lot of this up and reduce criticism that the Commission is both secretive and slow.

I think the Astra Zeneca news is obviously bad for the EU but also feel that it's being approached in this combative way because resentments are building up fast in the EU and Astra Zenecas possible mess up allows attentions to shift to an external factor.

There is obviously angry politics happening at the minute, those German newspapers were citing governor sources when they talked about the 8% effectiveness. Anyone following politics knows that leaking and what's leaked says a lot about the politics in the background.
Melanchthon is online now Report Post

Your guess is as good as mine. However AZ delay is going to throw a massive monkey wrench in all EU27 vaccination dates, pushing us all to the right on dates. Hence of course angry politics

emmalynn19 · 26-01-2021 03:41PM

noodler wrote: »

Untrue.

Any evidence to support that?

We will have paid Pfizer more as there one is approved but we have not paid half the bill for any APA where the company has not got regulatory approval.

Reading here it says theyve contracts for up to 400 million doses.

https://www.france24.com/en/europe/20210123-astrazeneca-says-covid-19-vaccine-deliveries-to-europe-will-be-lower-than-expected

We've paid them €290 million at €1.78 per dose I think.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jan/22/south-africa-paying-more-than-double-eu-price-for-oxford-astrazeneca-vaccine

CIARAN_BOYLE · 26-01-2021 03:41PM

noodler wrote: »

Untrue.

Any evidence to support that?

We will have paid Pfizer more as there one is approved but we have not paid half the bill for any APA where the company has not got regulatory approval.

Just some quick sources

We paid 340 million euro up front (off the top of my head). 298 million sterling per sky so 340 million euro is about right.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/news.sky.com/story/amp/covid-19-astrazenecas-reasons-for-cutting-eu-vaccine-supply-unacceptable-says-official-12198785
%

We are paying 1 euro 78 cent per dose for 300 million doses. Total payment due is 534 million euro. So we are paying 63% in advance.

https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2021/jan/22/south-africa-paying-more-than-double-eu-price-for-oxford-astrazeneca-vaccine

26-01-2021 03:41PM

Leroy42 wrote: »

But why are the EU claiming it and AZ not denying it?

You might be interested in this

trellheim wrote: »

I'd add a rider to that saying although AZ APA is confidential, Curevac released their APA publicly , we think because the US regulators forced them to.

See https://ec.europa.eu/info/sites/info/files/curevac_-_redacted_advance_purchase_agreement_0.pdf

(heavily redacted but you get the idea)

NOTE FOR REPETITION THATS THE CUREVAC ONE NOT THE AZ ONE , AND CUREVAC IS NOT APPROVED EITHER.

I think we can take it that this is a model EU contract and the AZ one will be more or less the same.

Just from reading article 1.11 which covers delivery, my take on the current situation is this.

1.11.4 (b) calls out that the delivery schedule is based on approval being given by a certain date, we obviously don't know what this is, but i would imagine one third of the way through the first delivery period isn't exactly ideal

1.12.1 talks about possible delays, why these could happen and what should be done if it is. One action is a revised estimated delivery schedule.

so I would hazard a guess and say that AZ are not happy with the approval date, so have revised their delivery estimate.

This revision is significant and the eu have kicked up a stink about. I can understand why, but in reality I don't think they have a leg to stand on. AZ may not be acting reasonably, but according to the contract they haven't breached anything.

emmalynn19 · 26-01-2021 03:44PM

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

Just some quick sources

We paid 340 million euro up front (off the top of my head). 298 million sterling per sky so 340 million euro is about right.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/news.sky.com/story/amp/covid-19-astrazenecas-reasons-for-cutting-eu-vaccine-supply-unacceptable-says-official-12198785
%

We are paying 1 euro 78 cent per dose for 300 million doses. Total payment due is 534 million euro. So we are paying 63% in advance.

https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2021/jan/22/south-africa-paying-more-than-double-eu-price-for-oxford-astrazeneca-vaccine

Lol, numbers. You get the gist anyway

26-01-2021 03:44PM

emmalynn19 wrote: »

Reading here it says theyve contracts for up to 400 million doses.

https://www.france24.com/en/europe/20210123-astrazeneca-says-covid-19-vaccine-deliveries-to-europe-will-be-lower-than-expected

We've paid them €290 million at €1.78 per dose I think.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jan/22/south-africa-paying-more-than-double-eu-price-for-oxford-astrazeneca-vaccine

the contracted price and a purchase order doesn't mean the product is actually paid for up front. typically payment would be on or after delivery.

trellheim · 26-01-2021 03:44PM

I think we can take it that this is a model EU contract and the AZ one will be more or less the same.

Agree ( and so does twitter) but without either side making it public its just "more or less" , we don't know for sure.

FileNotFound · 26-01-2021 03:45PM

Aegir wrote: »

You might be interested in this

I think we can take it that this is a model EU contract and the AZ one will be more or less the same.

Just from reading article 1.11 which covers delivery, my take on the current situation is this.

1.11.4 (b) calls out that the delivery schedule is based on approval being given by a certain date, we obviously don't know what this is, but i would imagine one third of the way through the first delivery period isn't exactly ideal

1.12.1 talks about possible delays, why these could happen and what should be done if it is. One action is a revised estimated delivery schedule.

so I would hazard a guess and say that AZ are not happy with the approval date, so have revised their delivery estimate.

This revision is significant and the eu have kicked up a stink about. I can understand why, but in reality I don't think they have a leg to stand on. AZ may not be acting reasonably, but according to the contract they haven't breached anything.

Your probably right - also Pharma do authorisations and HA contracts all the time - they tend to be good at knowing what they can and cannot do.

Political machines are generally a bit rubbish on this end.

Still think that X% of the lost delivery will reappear from the new UK stock.

Or maybe AIFA will step in and stop shipments... Who knows.

What exactly is happening with AstraZeneca?

Comments