Where do we go from here?

Cass · 17-01-2021 9:18pm

12gauge dave wrote: »

With no shooting or practice ranges around there is nowhere for us gun owners without land to shoot on.

You try a bit of lamping and your public enemy number one in the village farmers spreading rumours and being accused of all sorts and guards ringing you the next day.

This is the very thing i'm referring to. Sounds fairly sh*tty, so sorry for your troubles, but this is what we need. I know a couple of young lads in the same position as yourself. No one in their family shoots, nor friends, so they had a harder time starting out as they were on their own from the start. WE, established shooters, can change this for younger lads by inviting them in and helping out whenever and wherever we can.

A few suggestions/questions that may be of no help but all i can think of for the moment.

Have you tried the local gun club, range, even local lads already shooting? Perhaps even go along a few times without your gun and show you're interested in all aspects and not just the shooting.

I haven't shot the gun in years and Id have no problem handing back in at this stage.

I hope you stick it out. I was in your shoes about a year back and got the same advice by other shooters. Didn't want to hear it, but i stuck it out, albeit without shooting due to covid, but looking back i'm glad i did.

If you're still undecided its easier to have the gun than to surrender it, change your mind and try start again.

Safe places to shoot where owners can hop in the car and go let some lead off for half an hour is what is needed. Classes for youngsters could be given then and it would grow.

Now you're touching on something i've been thinking about for a while.

A range in each county or a couple. I know it sounds mad, expensive, etc. but it doesn't have to be.

The Midlands range started as a simple clay range over 25 years ago and look at it now. My point is you don't need 1,200 yard range in each county just a simple 50 mtr, 4 to 6 lane range. It requires the same level of licensing, but the set-up, maintenance and running costs will be significantly lower and would provide the very thing you are seeking.

My home county has no range so even when we come out of level 5 i cannot travel to the range so i would benefit too. So its not just for younger shooters.

Great idea, keep them coming.

Munsterlad102 · 17-01-2021 9:26pm

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

You need to that sparingly and when it's relevant or a critical matter. Otherwise, you just end up looking like that fellah down in Callan who buys ink by the tanker load and is scribbling non-stop to the papers on nowadays any and all topics. Yeah,we have done this before and it worked when the liscense fee was going to be increased.We blizzaderd with emails the TDs and ol Fatty Harney was "alarmed" at the amount she recived against this increase.

Then "I'll smoke where I want to! It's my right!".Deasey ran bawling to the press about how he was being "targeted by hate mail" from those nasty gun owners when he was egging on that nasty crippled insect from Louth, Ahern, about banning handguns in the Dail.:mad: So it has to be done right too.

As to what an ex-surfer chick who thinks she is a hot Sht on all things NZ, as she was on a boat that had it's hull blown out 30 years ago in the harbour by idiot French intelligence operatives, isn't really the hill to die on.Same as that FF jackass who was braying on about banning the few semi-autos and handguns we have here in the Dail. Cass was right on that. Don't give these people oxygen in their outpourings or allow them to create a "Streisand effect".
Plus these days E petitions is great for dumping an issue on someones door too.

Exactly, with a lot of things, less is more and sending letters in every week is going to be pointless. However if the government tries to implement any bans or announces them, then we should send in letters by the truck load. Genuine letters not letters from William X, Will X, Bill X, Billy X etc etc. I think this approach is a must because then the government knows that people oppose bans and restrictions.

Is that John Deasy, the FG TD from Waterford? I remember he tried to sue a newspaper for defamation or something and lost.

I heard about the Rainbow Warrior incident a good while ago, my mother told me that it was in Russia and she had to swim to shore, when in reality they were in port and just had to step off the boat.

I think the best approach is to pretend that we don't exist and let the public thing that "only farmers can have guns". Only speak unless spoken to, sort of approach:D

Cass · 17-01-2021 9:28pm

tudderone wrote: »

I really don't know. Get politicians involved ? I remember Biffo getting his photo taken at the Midlands club when they extended their range, a short while later he chucked the pistol shooters under the bus.

We cannot rely on, which is different to trusting, any current politician. They got where they are by going with the current trends and have bigger concerns than a shooting community without any sort of lobby group or unity.

My thinking, albeit far fetched and the long game, is making politicians. Start working towards getting people we can rely on into office. Upset the norm and start to shift out the "old guard". May not do much in the short term but long term, who knows.

Invite journalists to ranges ? Thats been tried before and They turned on us and bit us on the arse.

Nope. no relying on third parties. Direct advertisement even if it means leaflets in letterboxes, phone calls, or e-mails.

Get colleges involved ? That might be an idea, i know some already have their own rifle clubs.

Absolutely. Doesn't have to be rimfire or centrefire, air rifle ranges (while legally the same) can be setup and ran much easier and cheaper than "full ranges". Even if its only 10mtr to start with.

No point trying to encourage people into game shooting, if they attempt to get into a club and its like trying to get into the masons.

So how do we tackle that?

How about my idea on a "reserve" membership? Something like a limited license you increase your membership with "limited members" (obviously at a reduced rate). They can only shoot on certain days, etc. (too early to think of all the details now) but will get them a member number and access to the same criteria needed to get their own gun. So it shouldn't impact on the number of lads shooting on the same lands, the amount of game taken, but will bring in much needed monies to the club as well as expanding on club numbers, hence shooting community numbers.

What about bringing in youth members (under 16) without guns to learn the conservation, game breeding and upkeep side? once they turn 16 they can use the club to get their license and will be immediately accepted into the "limited/reserve membership" above?

There must be something that can work for both parties.

tudderone · 17-01-2021 9:31pm

Munsterlad102 wrote: »

Exactly, with a lot of things, less is more and sending letters in every week is going to be pointless. However if the government tries to implement any bans or announces them, then we should send in letters by the truck load. Genuine letters not letters from William X, Will X, Bill X, Billy X etc etc. I think this approach is a must because then the government knows that people oppose bans and restrictions.

Is that John Deasy, the FG TD from Waterford? I remember he tried to sue a newspaper for defamation or something and lost.

I heard about the Rainbow Warrior incident a good while ago, my mother told me that it was in Russia and she had to swim to shore, when in reality they were in port and just had to step off the boat.

I think the best approach is to pretend that we don't exist and let the public thing that "only farmers can have guns". Only speak unless spoken to, sort of approach:D

I was dragged down to that bloody boat when it was in Dublin, i was only a kid at the time. They were made a fuss of in the media and were asking people to come and see them and go onboard. It wasn't long as i recall that it was blown-up. Dunno what got into the french to do that, don't much care either :cool:

Cass · 17-01-2021 9:32pm

Munsterlad102 wrote: »

I think the best approach is to pretend that we don't exist and let the public thing that "only farmers can have guns". Only speak unless spoken to, sort of approach:D

That, to my surprise, is more prevalent than i believed with people actually surprised i own a firearm let alone multiple firearms with some of them being "evil American guns" like AR platform or a pistol. Now don't get me wrong i don't go around telling everyone i own guns, but people i know, speak to frequently, and get to know eventually find out and then ask questions.

This is why i think a public campaign is essential. not to sound like a dick, but we need to educate people. If we only turn a few percent each year its a slow and steady change which we can reply on.

Grizzly 45 · 17-01-2021 9:41pm

Re the media.
I see problems here for us in IRL
1] Boards is really the only more or less, place to get any information as to what's going on.

2] Doubtful that the Irish MSM have ever heard of us,or would be too interested in us either unless it bleeds it leads scenarios "

3] Not everyone in the shooting community likes us here on boards in Ireland for whatever and varied reasons. From being "know it alls to "Telling the Guards everything they know and them using it again us!". While blathering misinformation themselves on FB!:rolleyes:

How difficult is it to set up a Youtube channel as an "Alt news" source to deal with topics? OK,it will no doubt have to comment on things not relevant purely to Ireland on the shooting scene. but as Tudderone said. We are all global now and what affects the US does eventually end up here too. The positive side is with contacts now in Europe with FUN, FACE and others we can get more European perspective and respond to local issues a lot quicker as well as doing online interviews or getting different test reports on firearms as well.

It seems to have anti-gun orgs like "the Trace" worried in the US as they are now trying to deplatform people like Colion Noir , Iraqvet 8888, Forgotten weapons, etc, etc. By doing hit pieces on the companies that support them for spreading misinformation about Bidens gun plans!" you dont do that unless there is a powerful medium and you are scared of it. So maybe this is another ave to explore to get our messages out?

tudderone · 17-01-2021 9:45pm

The only Irish channel i know of is Jason Doyle on Fieldsports Ireland, but thats mainly hunting.

Munsterlad102 · 17-01-2021 9:47pm

Cass wrote: »

That, to my surprise, is more prevalent than i believed with people actually surprised i own a firearm let alone multiple firearms with some of them being "evil American guns" like AR platform or a pistol. Now don't get me wrong i don't go around telling everyone i own guns, but people i know, speak to frequently, and get to know eventually find out and then ask questions.

This is why i think a public campaign is essential. not to sound like a dick, but we need to educate people. If we only turn a few percent each year its a slow and steady change which we can reply on.

Yeah, the majority of my family and friends who I was talking to thought that was the case and were suprised to find out target shooting was a thing.

Another note on the previous message, a public figure would be a good idea, someone to put a face to a cause. Obviously someone who doesn't mind the publicity and is a good speaker, not Johnny from the pub.

Grizzly 45 · 17-01-2021 9:50pm

Is that John Deasy, the FG TD from Waterford? I remember he tried to sue a newspaper for defamation or something and los

.

Yup, thats the idiot in question.

I heard about the Rainbow Warrior incident a good while ago, my mother told me that it was in Russia and she had to swim to shore, when in reality they were in port and just had to step off the boat.

You dear ol Ma got the story a bit mixed up there..Grace got the receiving end of a Soviet fire hose while she was climbing up a Soviet nuke freighter anchor chain, and had to swim back to the dingy.

Munsterlad102 · 17-01-2021 9:53pm

tudderone wrote: »

The only Irish channel i know of is Jason Doyle on Fieldsports Ireland, but thats mainly hunting.

I think he's the only one. I remember the guy from English Shooting had a video with a journalist talking about English gun laws and the S&W MP15/22. I didn't watch all the video and I can't find it, but I think that was a poor tactic. I don't think we should be saying what we can own but what the ordinary shooter owns, like a bolt action .22 or an o/u shotgun. Perhaps it would be best to steer clear of the evil dangerous fully semi auto territory even if its just a 10/22.

Grizzly 45 · 17-01-2021 9:54pm

Munsterlad102 wrote: »

Another note on the previous message, a public figure would be a good idea, someone to put a face to a cause. Obviously someone who doesn't mind the publicity and is a good speaker, not Johnny from the pub.

Preferably, female, of an ethnic minority, disabled,or trans, and a qualified journalist or media-savvy person ...On the disabled and qualified in media...I know just the person for that role!:p:cool:

badaj0z · 17-01-2021 9:54pm

There is hope. I admin my club's web site and I receive all of the contact messages. The increase in messages asking how to join was very noticeable throughout last year and especially in the "more open Covid " phase leading up to December. Also noticeable was that the age of the people contacting us was averaging in the 30's. We put through the applications up to the start of this year and there is now a backlog, waiting for us to open up again to progress their applications. My own opinion, not necessarily the club's, is that the low profile approach is best for our sport in Ireland. A higher profile attracts more media attention and we will never win that battle, thanks largely to the international media's perspective on guns, largely driven by Europe's view on the gun issue in the USA.

Feisar · 17-01-2021 9:59pm

The first thing that we need to change is the fact ya can’t knock over a few tin cans with a 22 outside of a range. Our sport is so inaccessible these days, I started of with my Dad and his CZ 452.

Grizzly 45 · 17-01-2021 10:00pm

Munsterlad102 wrote: »

I don't think we should be saying what we can own but what the ordinary shooter owns, like a bolt action .22 or an o/u shotgun. Perhaps it would be best to steer clear of the evil dangerous fully semi auto territory even if its just a 10/22.

Said the dude looking for a CF semi-auto rifle.:P:P
No, we just point out that it is EXTREMELY difficult to own ,x,y,z...Which it is, and that it is a rigorous process, which it is, and that technically said you "could lose this with no compensation" if this legislation is enacted..which is true, were itto come up. Plus, its the owner of the channel whether he wants to go there or not,not us.

Cass · 17-01-2021 10:02pm

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

1] Boards is really the only more or less, place to get any information as to what's going on.

We trudge through all the latest trends, re: social media, and remain the last vestige of open discussion. Well as open as the law allows. FB, Twitter, Youtube, and all the other platforms have slowly being eroding that ability and even the free speech pages started to set rules on discussion which now seems meaningless as they are bing shut down. Only this morning i read that another page on FB was shut down temporarily with a threat of permanent shutdown if they did not stop posting pictures of hunted/shot animals. So that avenue will eventually dry up.

2] Doubtful that the Irish MSM have ever heard of us,or would be too interested in us either unless it bleeds it leads scenarios "

We don't need them. As you said their only interest in us is when something happens that they get to put a picture of a Glock or AK on the screen. So forget them and move on.

3] Not everyone in the shooting community likes us here on boards in Ireland for whatever and varied reasons. From being "know it alls to "Telling the Guards everything they know and them using it again us!". While blathering misinformation themselves on FB!:rolleyes:

So be it. They don't have to like us, register or even post here so long as they can use the site to see what is happening, i'll take it.

How difficult is it to set up a Youtube channel as an "Alt news" source to deal with topics?

For now, not a good idea with "the purge". Perhaps on another platform or in the near future when things have settled. IMO.

OK,it will no doubt have to comment on things not relevant purely to Ireland on the shooting scene. but as Tudderone said. We are all global now and what affects the US does eventually end up here too. The positive side is with contacts now in Europe with FUN, FACE and others we can get more European perspective and respond to local issues a lot quicker as well as doing online interviews or getting different test reports on firearms as well.

On that note i believe our future lies in our European Brethren and not with our American Cousins. Other than the current political climate we have a better relationship with the EU so lets start using it. Time we stopped being viewed as "the island of the west coast of the UK" and started to participate.

So maybe this is another ave to explore to get our messages out?

How about we start with a youtube/video sharing platform thread.

We have the youtube thread but its more for humor and funny pictures. How about we start a new thread with videos of Irish lads and their channels. We can even seek the lads out and ask them to participate on the forum in Q&A, AMA, etc.

Start to advertise their videos and get shooting/hunting out to the public by any means necessary.

Cass · 17-01-2021 10:16pm

Munsterlad102 wrote: »

......., but I think that was a poor tactic. I don't think we should be saying what we can own but what the ordinary shooter owns, like a bolt action .22 or an o/u shotgun. Perhaps it would be best to steer clear of the evil dangerous fully semi auto territory even if its just a 10/22.

Here is one of the problems. We are so nervous about what the public think we don't speak of it, and it ends up getting banned anyway.

If we do discuss it then we take away the mystery and stigma surrounding it.

Cass · 17-01-2021 10:17pm

badaj0z wrote: »

There is hope. I admin my club's web site and I receive all of the contact messages. The increase in messages asking how to join was very noticeable throughout last year and especially in the "more open Covid " phase leading up to December.

Good news and good work.

Also noticeable was that the age of the people contacting us was averaging in the 30's.

Getting older too. Not sure of the reasons but the younger generation don't have the same interest whether its lack of exposure or genuine disinterest, but it can be changed, the mentality.

My own opinion, not necessarily the club's, is that the low profile approach is best for our sport in Ireland. A higher profile attracts more media attention and we will never win that battle, thanks largely to the international media's perspective on guns, largely driven by Europe's view on the gun issue in the USA.

I'd disagree for the reasons above. The keep quiet approach is not working in the long term, and we're dying slower, but dying none the less.

Look at the changes in the last 11 year alone. Any gains before 2009 are gone and then some. Plus we're not looking at national exposure in terms of national media, plus they don't want us anyway as most of us found out with the exceptional success of the international teams in pistol and gallery with no media, even local, interested in covering it.

Start small, local, and build from there as and how the reception from those involved is judged. However this is only a discussion and i'm not taking from your work thus far and if its working for your club/range then stick with it.

Cass · 17-01-2021 10:17pm

Feisar wrote: »

The first thing that we need to change is the fact ya can’t knock over a few tin cans with a 22 outside of a range. Our sport is so inaccessible these days, I started of with my Dad and his CZ 452.

Exactly.

In the UK and in most EU countries they can shoot at targets outside a range. Our own Minster said he never intended to outlaw such practices, but never done anything to change it. Maybe we can through lobbying and letter writing. I believe, but will check, its only an SI prohibiting it and so can be changed without the need for an amendment, or repeal of a section, to the Act.

Excellent idea btw.

Munsterlad102 · 17-01-2021 10:18pm

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Preferably, female, of an ethnic minority, disabled,or trans, and a qualified journalist or media-savvy person ...On the disabled and qualified in media...I know just the person for that role!:p:cool:

Then they’ll have to listen to them

Grizzly 45 · 17-01-2021 10:20pm

So be it. They don't have to like us, register or even post here so long as they can use the site to see what is happening, i'll take it.

They won't even LOOK at the site they hate it that much,which is the problem. Hence they keep pumping out mis and inaccurate information.

O

n that note i believe our future lies in our European Brethren and not with our American Cousins. Other than the current political climate we have a better relationship with the EU so lets start using it. Time we stopped being viewed as "the island of the west coast of the UK" and started to participate.

Agreed.

We have the youtube thread but its more for humor and funny pictures. How about we start a new thread with videos of Irish lads and their channels. We can even seek the lads out and ask them to participate on the forum in Q&A, AMA, etc.

Start to advertise their videos and get shooting/hunting out to the public by any means necessary.

Yeah, this is the thing tho. How many YT vids are there on or from Irish lads and their channels that produce current up to date clips? And this is one ting that would help immensely here on boards is. Can it be modified to use audio questions and replies? Which would be a need for such as well as being helpful for longer posts?

Munsterlad102 · 17-01-2021 10:23pm

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Said the dude looking for a CF semi-auto rifle.:P:P
No, we just point out that it is EXTREMELY difficult to own ,x,y,z...Which it is, and that it is a rigorous process, which it is, and that technically said you "could lose this with no compensation" if this legislation is enacted..which is true, were itto come up. Plus, its the owner of the channel whether he wants to go there or not,not us.

Got me there Grizz

maybe not tell them about being able to lose it without any compensation, we don’t want to be giving them any ideas. Probably best not to be shouting the fact that we can own ARs from the rooftops, but if we’re asked we would have to be honest.

Feisar · 17-01-2021 10:23pm

Cass wrote: »

Exactly.

In the UK and in most EU countries they can shoot at targets outside a range. Our own Minster said he never intended to outlaw such practices, but never done anything to change it. Maybe we can through lobbying and letter writing. I believe, but will check, its only an SI prohibiting it and so can be changed without the need for an amendment, or repeal of a section, to the Act.

Excellent idea btw.

I’m mad to get lobbying for reloading at home but plinking is so much more important in the grand scheme of things.

tudderone · 17-01-2021 10:25pm

Cass wrote: »

Getting older too. Not sure of the reasons but the younger generation don't have the same interest whether its lack of exposure or genuine disinterest, but it can be changed, the mentality.

I'd disagree for the reasons above. The keep quiet approach is not working in the long term, and we're dying slower, but dying none the less.

I find this with most past times or hobbies now. A mate of mine has a lovely workshop, all sorts of machinery, lathe, mills, power hacksaw, welding equipment, big place with plenty of room. He cannot get his kids interested in learning how to use it, they would rather sit around the warm of the house playing x-box or surfing the web.

Another friend is into astronomy, has all the gear, cannot get the kids into it or to even try it, rather be on bookface etc.

Same for lads into shooting, the kids just don't want to know, rather play call of duty or whatever online.

It must be a generational thing.

tudderone · 17-01-2021 10:27pm

Feisar wrote: »

I’m mad to get lobbying for reloading at home but plinking is so much more important in the grand scheme of things.

Even ranges have clamped down on it. We used to set up clay pigeons or plastic waterbottles on the backstop and shoot them with the rifles, but the club doesn't allow it anymore.

Cass · 17-01-2021 10:28pm

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

They won't even LOOK at the site they hate it that much,which is the problem. Hence they keep pumping out mis and inaccurate information.

There is nothing i can do about that so i'll not worry about it. i'll hope they at least look in, but if they chose not to then as said, so be it, disappointing, but so be it.

Yeah, this is the thing tho. How many YT vids are there on or from Irish lads and their channels that produce current up to date clips?

I honestly don't know, but we have to start somewhere. Get some videos, even old ones, from current YT channels and we'll build from there.

And this is one ting that would help immensely here on boards is. Can it be modified to use audio questions and replies? Which would be a need for such as well as being helpful for longer posts?

Not sure if it can be done on the forum as that is beyond my technical understanding and ability (only admins/site owners can make such changes if its even possible as he forum is no longer the same format as it was 10 years ago).

For now we can set up question here and have them read out (like a phone in section, except YT) or directly onto the YT channel ( as this is not about the volume of traffic on Boards, but the sport the forum represents).

We can then look into setting up a Boards YT channel (or other platform provider) where we can create videos, provide a platform for lads to upload their videos, use it to advertise other channels and eventually do direct Q&A/AMA sessions.

That will be down the road and require a ton of work, but its something we can work on.

Grizzly 45 · 17-01-2021 10:30pm

Cass wrote: »

Exactly.

In the UK and in most EU countries they can shoot at targets outside a range. Our own Minster said he never intended to outlaw such practices, but never done anything to change it. Maybe we can through lobbying and letter writing. I believe, but will check, its only an SI prohibiting it and so can be changed without the need for an amendment, or repeal of a section, to the Act.

Excellent idea btw.

It is. Virtually any town or country in the US actually has a "designated shooting area" Some bit of wasteland that you can go away and plink away at whatever, with whatever you fancy or can legally own. It's usually next to the town dump for some reason.

Europe it's still formal enough. you still have to shoot on a range or your safe private property or your shooting let. Yet I cant understand that if you have a disused silage clamp or a sand pit on your property, why that can't be used by the owner or his guests?

Feisar · 17-01-2021 10:33pm

I got the 18 month old a Nerf gun, start ‘em early!

riffmongous · 17-01-2021 10:34pm

Europe is the way to go, the US is poison at the moment and it's got almost nothing in common with the Irish experience anyway. Look to the central European countries which have very high gun ownership rates and more importantly imo, an actual broad culture of hunting and shooting where the people don't all come off as trumpist gun nuts or the remains of the gentry, there's enough of a base that you get people from different walks of life into it, including lefties :rolleyes:

If you want to build that base more information on how to actually get involved is key. A few years ago if you didn't know anyone who does it already it was almost impossible to find anything locally, just a handful of decrepit websites. Then focus as much on the outdoor/nature/technical aspects as the shooting at the start as it's far more socially acceptable at the moment and just as interesting.

Cass · 17-01-2021 10:36pm

Feisar wrote: »

I’m mad to get lobbying for reloading at home

Another good point and something for the entire community to get behind.

but plinking is so much more important in the grand scheme of things.

Whatever the plan it needs to have an instant attraction. Reloading is boring, to me, and i know i'd rather be shooting so imagine what someone with a short attention span might think (i know you're not referring to just reloading). Its like snooker. I like playing it, but hate watching it on TV.

Even people i know that were unsure, against or neutral on shooting said they enjoyed it after trying it. Some stayed with their original opinion afterwards but some changed their minds and a very small few actually took up the sport. You cannot beat trigger time, as you said.

Cass · 17-01-2021 10:36pm

tudderone wrote: »

It must be a generational thing.

My young lad went through this and still is. He got his training license and was shooting for a short while then he discovered girls, and later on cars. I went through it but came back to the sport in my mid/late twenties. However i'd been at it since i was old enough to stand, my young lad really only came shooting because i dragged him along or asked him. IOW the immediate interest was never really there, so we'll see if he comes back to it.

I've found trying to "force" their interest has the opposite effect so i'll let him come bck to it if and when he is ready. Its for this reason i think starting younger is better, as was said by someone earlier.

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Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County

Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County

Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County