Next%- the ongoing debate

OOnegative · 28-12-2020 9:35pm

Swashbuckler wrote: »

I'll never question the marketing machine that is Nike. Its astonishing the money people have spent on these, mostly down to brilliant marketing.

Or is it gob****es easily parted with their money(I run in nothing else but Nike btw).

skyblue46 · 28-12-2020 9:50pm

Swashbuckler wrote: »

I'll never question the marketing machine that is Nike. Its astonishing the money people have spent on these, mostly down to brilliant marketing.

Surely it was mostly down to people realising that they could knock chunks off their times wearing them...

Swashbuckler · 28-12-2020 10:25pm

skyblue46 wrote: »

Surely it was mostly down to people realising that they could knock chunks off their times wearing them...

How you can convince people to part with 270 for next% and quickly follow up and convince people to part with 300 for Alphafly is pure marketing.

And even now, regular folks will still pay the extra 60 quid for next% over adidas or saucony equivalent which are significantly cheaper. It's the brand more than anything else.

Murph_D · 28-12-2020 11:04pm

Swashbuckler wrote: »

How you can convince people to part with 270 for next% and quickly follow up and convince people to part with 300 for Alphafly is pure marketing.

And even now, regular folks will still pay the extra 60 quid for next% over adidas or saucony equivalent which are significantly cheaper. It's the brand more than anything else.

That will change when/if those competing shoes get the edge in terms of results, I presume. Nike still ahead on that score.

skyblue46 · 28-12-2020 11:14pm

Swashbuckler wrote: »

How you can convince people to part with 270 for next% and quickly follow up and convince people to part with 300 for Alphafly is pure marketing.

And even now, regular folks will still pay the extra 60 quid for next% over adidas or saucony equivalent which are significantly cheaper. It's the brand more than anything else.

Ah I thought you meant that the sales were down to the marketing of those particular shoes which it patently wasn't. Yes as a brand Nike have created a machine that can sell anything to the masses

skyblue46 · 28-12-2020 11:17pm

Murph_D wrote: »

That will change when/if those competing shoes get the edge in terms of results, I presume. Nike still ahead on that score.

I think Adidas have a couple of shoes for next Autumn which will improve on their already impressive shoe. I would also keep an eye on Asics. Sarah Hall has been setting lifetime PBs at 37 years old wearing the Asics prototype.

OOnegative · 28-12-2020 11:19pm

skyblue46 wrote: »

Sarah Hall has been setting lifetime PBs at 37 years old wearing the Asics prototype.

Just the shoes......

skyblue46 · 28-12-2020 11:22pm

OOnegative wrote: »

Just the shoes......

With her i think so...Now that Kenyan who set the HM record wearing Adidas I wouldn't be so sure about. He hasn't been part of any testing pool...

Swashbuckler · 28-12-2020 11:48pm

I debated back and forth what to do when offered the opportunity for a pricey pair of runners for Xmas. Next% is the obvious route to go but the more I thought about it the more I couldn't justify spending that much extra for maybe a minute here or there in the end result.
So I went with the endorphin pro and I'm really glad I did.

I'd encourage anyone thinking about going down the route of the next% to really consider the other options out there. In particular adidas adizero adios pro and the endorphin pro. Asics prototype looks promising too. The difference is 220 quid or less vs 270 quid. Endorphin speed are getting decent reviews too. Will be interesting to hear the opinions of Boardsies over the next few months.

average_runner · 29-12-2020 12:35pm

Swashbuckler wrote: »

I debated back and forth what to do when offered the opportunity for a pricey pair of runners for Xmas. Next% is the obvious route to go but the more I thought about it the more I couldn't justify spending that much extra for maybe a minute here or there in the end result.
So I went with the endorphin pro and I'm really glad I did.

I'd encourage anyone thinking about going down the route of the next% to really consider the other options out there. In particular adidas adizero adios pro and the endorphin pro. Asics prototype looks promising too. The difference is 220 quid or less vs 270 quid. Endorphin speed are getting decent reviews too. Will be interesting to hear the opinions of Boardsies over the next few months.

I think by next June, we will have comprehensive evidence on which show is the best, how some shoes suit certain runners etc.

Murph_D · 29-12-2020 12:47pm

We can hypothesise all we like. The fact is, until all these new shoes are tested in competition, head to head, we simply don’t have the data yet. I sincerely hope this competition stacks up to the promise so that prices will (hopefully) fall.

demfad · 30-12-2020 12:55pm

I'm not running too much anymore, but was interested enough to buy a pair of Endorphin Speeds.

For masters runners this type of shoe is a major advancement. Whatever about speed, wearing these shoes wile running seems to inflict less stress on the body. This was the main reason masters were forced to lower training volume.
Not so much now. EG sessions or long hard runs take less time to recover and recovery runs are more useful (less stress on muscles).

Tommy Hughes (Over 60 but sub current 2:30 marathon) has a good article in Irish Runner where he aludes to both the racing value and also the 'mileage' value.

Cona · 30-12-2020 1:55pm

Swashbuckler wrote: »

I'd encourage anyone thinking about going down the route of the next% to really consider the other options out there. In particular adidas adizero adios pro and the endorphin pro. Asics prototype looks promising too. The difference is 220 quid or less vs 270 quid. Endorphin speed are getting decent reviews too. Will be interesting to hear the opinions of Boardsies over the next few months.

No offence here, but people really need to differentiate their needs. Your post seems to imply that you didn’t want to pay for the Nikes and went the next best thing that was more affordable for you. Totally fine.
For me I’d hate that approach. If I’m paying good money for something, I want the best available (even if it’s just psychological)

At the moment, the Nike still holds the crown and until we see evidence and testing it will prob stay that way.

Swashbuckler · 30-12-2020 4:42pm

Cona wrote: »

No offence here, but people really need to differentiate their needs. Your post seems to imply that you didn’t want to pay for the Nikes and went the next best thing that was more affordable for you. Totally fine.
For me I’d hate that approach. If I’m paying good money for something, I want the best available (even if it’s just psychological)

At the moment, the Nike still holds the crown and until we see evidence and testing it will prob stay that way.

No offense taken.

Personally I'd need to be seeing a big difference in gains between the two runners. I don't think the gap between the two is enough for me to warrant an extra 60 quid but that's just my preference.

MY BAD · 02-01-2021 3:06pm

healy1835 wrote: »

I believe it's actually the Vaporfly NEXT% 2 that's coming

https://www.instagram.com/p/CJV0OL3nj21/?igshid=1hbitk3p1fr56

Going by a few photos on Instagram it looks like the upper from the Alphafly or another type of flyknit with the same sole on as previous versions. I wasn't a fan of the upper on the original Next% Vaporfly so it looks like an improvement.

DuffleBag · 05-01-2021 3:39pm

I'm probably in the minority here but I'm not a long distance runner by any stretch of the imagination. 5km every second or third day and a 10km run maybe once a month. I do it to keep the weight down if anything but I get savage pains in my shins/calves running on hard ground (grass included during the summer playing gaa) but I got the vaporfly next% during the first lockdown in the hope that it would alleviate the pain I get and I have to be honest it's made it a lot less painful for me. For this alone, for me, they were worth the money. They should last longer too as I'm not putting up some of the crazy mileage some of you are

iancairns · 05-01-2021 3:45pm

As an owner of the Nike Alph and Vaporfly's I can honestly say they were the best buys I could have made. Money well spent. Incredible performance, and I can compare to a lot of others competitors I've tried.

Swashbuckler · 05-01-2021 3:57pm

DuffleBag wrote: »

I'm probably in the minority here but I'm not a long distance runner by any stretch of the imagination. 5km every second or third day and a 10km run maybe once a month. I do it to keep the weight down if anything but I get savage pains in my shins/calves running on hard ground (grass included during the summer playing gaa) but I got the vaporfly next% during the first lockdown in the hope that it would alleviate the pain I get and I have to be honest it's made it a lot less painful for me. For this alone, for me, they were worth the money. They should last longer too as I'm not putting up some of the crazy mileage some of you are

Can I play devils advocate here and ask - is it possible you would have seen the same improvement with a much cheaper carbon plated shoe like the Endorphin Pro?

DuffleBag · 05-01-2021 4:17pm

Swashbuckler wrote: »

Can I play devils advocate here and ask - is it possible you would have seen the same improvement with a much cheaper carbon plated shoe like the Endorphin Pro?

Probably. I've never heard of them. Nike marketing machine did it's trick. Hadn't heard of the adidas equivalent either before actually getting my hands on the Nikes. First time I'd seen them was some guy on Youtube cutting them in half. "What's Inside" I believe was the channel

BeepBeep67 · 05-01-2021 5:13pm

I've now had a combination of runs across the Next%, Endorphin Pro, Endorphin Speed and Adios Pro, I've found these all to be true to size and infact would consider going down half a size in Sauncony (I'm a narrow foot btw).

I'll work backwards:

Adios Pro, straight out of the box 2hr relatively easy run [16.3miles/7:22pace], lovely fit, just very comfortable to wear, easy to lock-in. No mechanical issues on the run, honestly felt like I was running 10-15 seconds slower. 1 mile TT [5:02], lacking a little something at this pace, doesn't have the pushing forward feel that you get with the Nike and Saucony if I was staring at the Run Fast Pro and these for a smooth tarmac road race I think I would pick the Reebok for their lightness and racing flat feel. Would consider these for 10 mile plus races.

Endorphin Speed, if I could only throw 1 shoe in my bag for the rest of my life I'd be happy if it was this, true all-rounder and great across the paces. It's so comfortable, feels like a traditional shoe, decent tongue, lovely fit. I did do a little head to head comparison versus the Nike.

Same course for the first 4k.
5k I wore the Nike VaporFly Next%, 4k I wore the Saucony Endorphin Speed

HR data, I'm working at a similar level, in fact, a little harder for the 4k.
Cadence I'm turning over a little quicker in the Saucony.
The Nike's, however, gave me an extra 3cm per stride, doesn't sound much, but when you equalize the cadence and stride length it's +1.5%.

I think I would probably choose the Speed for a marathon where I wanted to limit the bomb damage.

Endorphin Pro, not sure what to do with this, it's good, better than a lot that I've worn, it fits well but too stiff for a daily driver, fast but maybe not fast enough for races. I just haven't warmed to it and actually rarely use it, in fact I think I wear for some 200's tonight, haven't tested it on a short session.

Next%, have used for races, TT's and sessions (even on the treadmill). I just feel fast when I wear these. I've had ongoing injury challenges last year and when I'm up to doing a session I'll grab these because my times will be relatively close to what I should be running when fit.

Summary:

1M/3k: Run Fast Pro / Next%
5k/10k: Next% / Adios Pro
10M / HM: Next% / Adios Pro
Mar: Next% / Speed

OOnegative · 05-01-2021 5:19pm

BeepBeep67 wrote: »

I've now had a combination of runs across the Next%, Endorphin Pro, Endorphin Speed and Adios Pro, I've found these all to be true to size and infact would consider going down half a size in Sauncony (I'm a narrow foot btw).

I'll work backwards:

Adios Pro, straight out of the box 2hr relatively easy run [16.3miles/7:22pace], lovely fit, just very comfortable to wear, easy to lock-in. No mechanical issues on the run, honestly felt like I was running 10-15 seconds slower. 1 mile TT [5:02], lacking a little something at this pace, doesn't have the pushing forward feel that you get with the Nike and Saucony if I was staring at the Run Fast Pro and these for a smooth tarmac road race I think I would pick the Reebok for their lightness and racing flat feel. Would consider these for 10 mile plus races.

Endorphin Speed, if I could only throw 1 shoe in my bag for the rest of my life I'd be happy if it was this, true all-rounder and great across the paces. It's so comfortable, feels like a traditional shoe, decent tongue, lovely fit. I did do a little head to head comparison versus the Nike.

Same course for the first 4k.
5k I wore the Nike VaporFly Next%, 4k I wore the Saucony Endorphin Speed

HR data, I'm working at a similar level, in fact, a little harder for the 4k.
Cadence I'm turning over a little quicker in the Saucony.
The Nike's, however, gave me an extra 3cm per stride, doesn't sound much, but when you equalize the cadence and stride length it's +1.5%.

I think I would probably choose the Speed for a marathon where I wanted to limit the bomb damage.

Endorphin Pro, not sure what to do with this, it's good, better than a lot that I've worn, it fits well but too stiff for a daily driver, fast but maybe not fast enough for races. I just haven't warmed to it and actually rarely use it, in fact I think I wear for some 200's tonight, haven't tested it on a short session.

Next%, have used for races, TT's and sessions (even on the treadmill). I just feel fast when I wear these. I've had ongoing injury challenges last year and when I'm up to doing a session I'll grab these because my times will be relatively close to what I should be running when fit.

Summary:

1M/3k: Run Fast Pro / Next%
5k/10k: Next% / Adios Pro
10M / HM: Next% / Adios Pro
Mar: Next% / Speed

How many pairs of runners now Dom?

BeepBeep67 · 05-01-2021 5:27pm

OOnegative wrote: »

How many pairs of runners now Dom?

Cona · 05-01-2021 11:55pm

Anyone have issues when ordering direct from Nike....the last three orders I’ve placed with them they seem to seriously mess up. I ordered Vapourfly on the 28th and see that the payment was reverted to my account today. The order status says they will be with me on the 13th but from past experience I know in a day or two they will cancel the order and send me some make up excuse...
Weird thing is they seem to have plenty of stock so I’m confused now...

They seem to be a seriously messed up company to order from, I know I can’t be only one with this experience

Cona · 05-01-2021 11:59pm

iancairns wrote: »

As an owner of the Nike Alph and Vaporfly's I can honestly say they were the best buys I could have made. Money well spent. Incredible performance, and I can compare to a lot of others competitors I've tried.

I’m a newb to the carbon plates but I’m opting for the Vapourflys instead of the Alphas. Any thoughts on which you would choose if u were buying now?

Ceepo · 06-01-2021 12:00am

Cona wrote: »

Anyone have issues when ordering direct from Nike....the last three orders I’ve placed with them they seem to seriously mess up. I ordered Vapourfly on the 28th and see that the payment was reverted to my account today. The order status says they will be with me on the 13th but from past experience I know in a day or two they will cancel the order and send me some make up excuse...
Weird thing is they seem to have plenty of stock so I’m confused now...

They seem to be a seriously messed up company to order from, I know I can’t be only one with this experience

I've ordered from them a few times over the years and ever had any issue's like you describe tbh,

and still ricky villa · 06-01-2021 12:31am

Their inventory management isn't great. I've had things go out of stock after paying for my size. Once on Vaporfly's and 3 times recently on trail shoes during the black Friday sale.
They seem to take more than one order for a single pair then fix it later.

Murph_D · 06-01-2021 11:50pm

BeepBeep67 wrote: »

I've now had a combination of runs across the Next%, Endorphin Pro, Endorphin Speed and Adios Pro, I've found these all to be true to size and infact would consider going down half a size in Sauncony (I'm a narrow foot btw).

I'll work backwards:

Adios Pro, straight out of the box 2hr relatively easy run [16.3miles/7:22pace], lovely fit, just very comfortable to wear, easy to lock-in. No mechanical issues on the run, honestly felt like I was running 10-15 seconds slower. 1 mile TT [5:02], lacking a little something at this pace, doesn't have the pushing forward feel that you get with the Nike and Saucony if I was staring at the Run Fast Pro and these for a smooth tarmac road race I think I would pick the Reebok for their lightness and racing flat feel. Would consider these for 10 mile plus races.

Endorphin Speed, if I could only throw 1 shoe in my bag for the rest of my life I'd be happy if it was this, true all-rounder and great across the paces. It's so comfortable, feels like a traditional shoe, decent tongue, lovely fit. I did do a little head to head comparison versus the Nike.

Same course for the first 4k.
5k I wore the Nike VaporFly Next%, 4k I wore the Saucony Endorphin Speed

HR data, I'm working at a similar level, in fact, a little harder for the 4k.
Cadence I'm turning over a little quicker in the Saucony.
The Nike's, however, gave me an extra 3cm per stride, doesn't sound much, but when you equalize the cadence and stride length it's +1.5%.

I think I would probably choose the Speed for a marathon where I wanted to limit the bomb damage.

Endorphin Pro, not sure what to do with this, it's good, better than a lot that I've worn, it fits well but too stiff for a daily driver, fast but maybe not fast enough for races. I just haven't warmed to it and actually rarely use it, in fact I think I wear for some 200's tonight, haven't tested it on a short session.

Next%, have used for races, TT's and sessions (even on the treadmill). I just feel fast when I wear these. I've had ongoing injury challenges last year and when I'm up to doing a session I'll grab these because my times will be relatively close to what I should be running when fit.

Summary:

1M/3k: Run Fast Pro / Next%
5k/10k: Next% / Adios Pro
10M / HM: Next% / Adios Pro
Mar: Next% / Speed

Great post - thanks for that. Agree re sizing - I’ve always taken Saucony a half size smaller than Nike and Adidas.

and still ricky villa · 07-01-2021 4:51pm

What are people's experiences with longevity on any of these shoes?
I'm currently rotating two pairs of Vaporflys and keep them for race pace workouts only but will most likely ignore the heavily marketed 100 mile limit.
Show me a shoe that retains that cushion and spring for longer and I'll happily switch

BeepBeep67 · 07-01-2021 6:42pm

and still ricky villa wrote: »

What are people's experiences with longevity on any of these shoes?
I'm currently rotating two pairs of Vaporflys and keep them for race pace workouts only but will most likely ignore the heavily marketed 100 mile limit.
Show me a shoe that retains that cushion and spring for longer and I'll happily switch

Approximately 306.24 miles

on 1 pair, with plenty of miles left

and still ricky villa · 07-01-2021 6:58pm

BeepBeep67 wrote: »

Approximately 306.24 miles on 1 pair, with plenty of miles left

On Vaporflys? Nice

Next%- the ongoing debate

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