Battery swapping is back!

Kramer · 15-09-2020 1:30am #1

Threads on this go all the way back to 2010 & are numerous - I wasn't sure if an overzealous mod would scold me for bumping an old thread

.

So, battery swapping is back with a bang :eek:.

https://cntechpost.com/2020/09/13/chinas-electric-car-battery-swap-model-expected-to-open-a-huge-market/

Hydrogen, rapid charging, battery swapping - which will win out?

conor_mc · 15-09-2020 8:19am

Kramer wrote: »

Threads on this go all the way back to 2010 & are numerous - I wasn't sure if an overzealous mod would scold me for bumping an old thread .

So, battery swapping is back with a bang :eek:.

https://cntechpost.com/2020/09/13/chinas-electric-car-battery-swap-model-expected-to-open-a-huge-market/

Hydrogen, rapid charging, battery swapping - which will win out?

Rapid charging+home charging is out the gate as a solution, while hydrogen and battery swapping are still searching the sock drawer for a clean pair!

Markcheese · 15-09-2020 9:29am

Battery swap to refuel seems a bit awkward, and a pain in the ass , but I think being able to hire additional batteries to extend range on an ad - hoc basis could be a goer ,
You buy a 30 or 40 kwh car which does your usual driving fine , but you want to go on a trip to Donegal ,so drop into your local garage to get them to stick an extra 20 kwh battery pack under the back seat ,and off you go ,

unkel · 15-09-2020 9:48am

Markcheese wrote: »

Battery swap to refuel seems a bit awkward, and a pain in the ass , but I think being able to hire additional batteries to extend range on an ad - hoc basis could be a goer ,
You buy a 30 or 40 kwh car which does your usual driving fine , but you want to go on a trip to Donegal ,so drop into your local garage to get them to stick an extra 20 kwh battery pack under the back seat ,and off you go ,

Except going to the dealer for that takes so long and costs so much money that you'd be better off, cheaper and more convenient, to just have a 20 minutes stop to charge on the way to Donegal. For safety (and other) reasons you'd need to stop for a break on a trip like that anyway

Lumen · 15-09-2020 10:13am

I don't get it.

Sure, your car is cheaper cos it has a small battery (or no battery), but someone has to pay for the battery degradation. Most cars live approximately as long as a current battery does, so it's not like there's some vast well of inefficiency to tap into.

I'd rather just pay the extra 5k or whatever for a big battery and then spend half an hour every now and again recharging whilst I eat motorway service station food.

It might make sense for people who can't slow charge overnight, but surely it's cheaper to install plug sockets at the kerb (there's always electricity where people live) than to equip 1500 petrol stations with expensive industrial robots.

Even then, this is an approach which only makes sense if no further progress is made in battery tech. In the last five couple of years charging speeds have roughly doubled, the 10-80% has dropped from about an hour to about half an hour.

Battery swapping as a strategy seems to have failure baked in, it's more petrol station mentality.

But maybe I'm just missing something.

blinding · 15-09-2020 10:15am

Why not just swap the entire car ? ? Don’t own the car but just do a continual Car Swap ! !

Perhaps have competition so that their is a choice of Car Swap companies to keep standards up ? ?

Lumen · 15-09-2020 10:44am

blinding wrote: »

Why not just swap the entire car ? ? Don’t own the car but just do a continual Car Swap ! !

Perhaps have competition so that their is a choice of Car Swap companies to keep standards up ? ?

The problem is that renting a car is inherently stressful because cars are easily damaged and so there's this perpetual fear of being landed with a massive repair bill.

zg3409 · 15-09-2020 11:04am

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTsrDpsYHrw

It can, will and does work, but I agree with others its practically impossible to come up with a standard shape battery, and sizes will vary. Even this one manufacturer has 2 different shapes? so the guy needs to check his shape is in stock and charged. Charging is an issue if station has a busy day they cant store dozens of batteries and they all need recharging at at peak times unless you keep 1+ days of batteries in stock.

Its technically possible but doomed to become obsolete. If they agreed a standard between manufacturers and say had 4 or more blocks to change, then each block could have a standard voltage, and you could mix and match capacities, but again seems messy.

Lumen · 15-09-2020 11:18am

zg3409 wrote: »

It can, will and does work, but I agree with others its practically impossible to come up with a standard shape battery, and sizes will vary...If they agreed a standard between manufacturers and say had 4 or more blocks to change, then each block could have a standard voltage, and you could mix and match capacities, but again seems messy.

Standardizing battery sizes for different form factors is impossible!

Oh wait....

126023720-alkaline-batteries-realistic-style-set-of-different-size-primary-battery-for-personal-powe.jpg

126023720-alkaline-batteries-realistic-style-set-of-different-size-primary-battery-for-personal-powe.jpg

unkel · 15-09-2020 11:23am

zg3409 wrote: »

It can, will and does work

That's what Agassi said

Soon after the billion dollar investment into better place went up in smoke. Sure, he was ahead of his time and the biggest problem was more that the masses weren't ready for EVs than that the EVs weren't ready for the masses. Although their 70-80km motorway range did not help (Nissan Leaf, Renault Fluence and most of the other EVs at the time)

Old diesel · 15-09-2020 12:46pm

I think battery swooping could have a place....

1) regular everyday high mileage operators - sales reps for example.

2) handy for emergency services operation.

3) time critical situations where you need to be somewhere fast - being able to do a 6 minute swop instead of 25 mins rapid charging.

4) each swop gives you full range of the car as you are getting a fully charged battery.

5) kills off hydrogen for private cars.

6) allows manufacturers to manage battery degredation issues if you can have a new battery in your car in 6 mins as standard swop. Particularly helpful in getting EVs to big mileages .

VikingG · 15-09-2020 12:57pm

Markcheese wrote: »

Battery swap to refuel seems a bit awkward, and a pain in the ass , but I think being able to hire additional batteries to extend range on an ad - hoc basis could be a goer ,
You buy a 30 or 40 kwh car which does your usual driving fine , but you want to go on a trip to Donegal ,so drop into your local garage to get them to stick an extra 20 kwh battery pack under the back seat ,and off you go ,

Dont see people doing that to be honest... might make more sense to rent a long range car for the weekend.

Old diesel · 15-09-2020 1:03pm

The big problem with battery swops is that you need extra battery supply.

Meaning that the amount of cars you can build using a set number of batteries is less.

You can probably make swoppable batteries to a set standard.

I would see a set up where you can choose swappable batteries or current batteries at time of buying the EV new.

So swopping batteries might be an alternative to to rapid charging not a replacement for it.

Horses for courses.

[Deleted User] · 16-09-2020 12:59pm

It's too late for battery swap, it was tried and failed miserably, in fact Renault had so much faith in battery swap they didn't bother to equip the Fluence EV with fast charging which made the car worthless. It had to be one of the greatest flops in history. I can't see battery swap working now.

Future for HGV is definitely Hydrogen whether it comes to passenger cars or not is another matter, perhaps we'll have both or a mix like the i3 Rex, a small generator for the longer trips only it's power will come from hydrogen.

eddhorse · 16-09-2020 1:47pm

Agreed, wait and see what the new batteries coming will be like on the 22nd.
If range and size/weight isn't as big an issue as most people think then a battery swap isn't needed.

I came here to post the Fully Charged Chinese battery swap video, it is interesting though.

unkel · 16-09-2020 2:12pm

Battery swap is an utterly outdated idea. Nearly as preposterous as swapping out full physical petrol tanks in an ICE vehicle. If you drive for well over 2 hours on end (and your battery is near empty) you will need to stop for a break of at least 15 minutes anyway. At the end of this break your battery should be near full again.

We need fast charging stations, not battery swapping stations :rolleyes:

And no, we don't need REx or hydrogen for private cars either. Ever.

[Deleted User] · 16-09-2020 2:31pm

unkel wrote: »

Battery swap is an utterly outdated idea. Nearly as preposterous as swapping out full physical petrol tanks in an ICE vehicle. If you drive for well over 2 hours on end (and your battery is near empty) you will need to stop for a break of at least 15 minutes anyway. At the end of this break your battery should be near full again.

We need fast charging stations, not battery swapping stations :rolleyes:

And no, we don't need REx or hydrogen for private cars either. Ever.

Well speak for yourself lol.

There's a hell of a lot of People who won't change to EV until Charging time greatly improves along with charger availability.

Choice, spend time recharging, risk queuing, broken chargers or press a button and continue on your generator/fuel cell whatever you want to call it, I bet I know what the majority would choose if they had the option.

GreeBo · 16-09-2020 2:36pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Well speak for yourself lol.

There's a hell of a lot of People who won't change to EV until Charging time greatly improves along with charger availability.

Choice, spend time recharging, risk queuing, broken chargers or press a button and continue on your generator/fuel cell whatever you want to call it, I bet I know what the majority would choose if they had the option.

Those same people wont switch to hydrogen or battery swapping until then either though!

Lumen · 16-09-2020 2:42pm

GreeBo wrote: »

Those same people wont switch to hydrogen or battery swapping until then either though!

It's a bit like with cycling. You ask people why they don't cycle to work and they'll come up with all sorts of "reasons", like not having segregated cycling infrastructure, but if you ask people who cycle to work already they'll tell you that isn't a problem.

If you actually built segregated cycling infrastructure then those drivers still wouldn't cycle, they'd just come up with some other reason to deflect from the fact that they're actually quite happy sitting in traffic for an hour a day.

So there's no point taking the opinions of non-participants too seriously. If you want to know how to improve electric cars, ask people who actually drive them.

KCross · 16-09-2020 2:45pm

unkel wrote: »

We need fast charging stations, not battery swapping stations :rolleyes:

And no, we don't need REx or hydrogen for private cars either. Ever.

And we just need you as our friendly dictator to make it happen!

Calahonda52 · 16-09-2020 3:28pm

Maybe a new social activity: wife + battery swapping

[Deleted User] · 16-09-2020 6:26pm

GreeBo wrote: »

Those same people wont switch to hydrogen or battery swapping until then either though!

Quite possibly, I know most People I talk to have no interest in EV mostly because of range and recharge times + cost. Even if we're now around 400 Kms I hear people say "my diesel can do 800 Kms and you think I'm going to wait 30-50 mins for a charge after 400 Kms, seriously ?"

[Deleted User] · 16-09-2020 6:33pm

Lumen wrote: »

It's a bit like with cycling. You ask people why they don't cycle to work and they'll come up with all sorts of "reasons", like not having segregated cycling infrastructure, but if you ask people who cycle to work already they'll tell you that isn't a problem.

If you actually built segregated cycling infrastructure then those drivers still wouldn't cycle, they'd just come up with some other reason to deflect from the fact that they're actually quite happy sitting in traffic for an hour a day.

So there's no point taking the opinions of non-participants too seriously. If you want to know how to improve electric cars, ask people who actually drive them.

So you think range and recharge times are not a big issue for most non ev enthusiasts ? I live with one and my Family is full of them, they're not making excuses at all they are correct by not buying cars that are not suitable for them. To a lot of People sitting waiting for a car to charge for up to 50 mins is just absolutely bonkers, then if you have small Children and have to add 50 mins to a trip and/or risk broken chargers.

There needs to be as many chargers as Petrol pumps or at lease 4 chargers per Petrol station so People don't have to think about where to go to charge + charge times are still way too long.

I mean how can People here not get this ? I do and I'm an EV driver ( with a backup lol )

Cycle lanes are mostly a joke in this country, in a bus lane or hard shoulder with a white line ffs. No cycle lanes linking towns and villages through the countryside. In town cycle lanes mean People are inches away from passing traffic.

Lumen · 17-09-2020 7:01am

Well Mad_Lad, my attitude to bicycles and EVs is identical.

I really don't give a sh!te whether other people use them or not, and I've no interest in pandering to their pathetic prejudices.

Both are fantastic means of transport for me, and I'm not alone.

EV drivers rarely go back.

[Deleted User] · 17-09-2020 8:23am

Lumen wrote: »

Well Mad_Lad, my attitude to bicycles and EVs is identical.

I really don't give a sh!te whether other people use them or not, and I've no interest in pandering to their pathetic prejudices.

Both are fantastic means of transport for me, and I'm not alone.

EV drivers rarely go back.

There's the die hard cyclists who hate anything with 4 wheels, the cycling forum here is full of them and such is their hatred for anything that isn't 100% human powered I got banned from the cycling forum because I kept getting attacked and trolled for mentioning electric bikes and also from mods.

These same People would think a cycle lane down the M50 would be a great idea, the fact People can cycle on the N7 is another Joke.....

Lumen · 17-09-2020 8:50am

Deleted User wrote: »

There's the die hard cyclists who hate anything with 4 wheels, the cycling forum here is full of them and such is their hatred for anything that isn't 100% human powered I got banned from the cycling forum because I kept getting attacked and trolled for mentioning electric bikes and also from mods.

These same People would think a cycle lane down the M50 would be a great idea, the fact People can cycle on the N7 is another Joke.....

Ok, now I'm really sorry I brought up bikes :pac:

GreeBo · 17-09-2020 9:26am

Deleted User wrote: »

So you think range and recharge times are not a big issue for most non ev enthusiasts ? I live with one and my Family is full of them, they're not making excuses at all they are correct by not buying cars that are not suitable for them. To a lot of People sitting waiting for a car to charge for up to 50 mins is just absolutely bonkers, then if you have small Children and have to add 50 mins to a trip and/or risk broken chargers.

There needs to be as many chargers as Petrol pumps or at lease 4 chargers per Petrol station so People don't have to think about where to go to charge + charge times are still way too long.

I mean how can People here not get this ? I do and I'm an EV driver ( with a backup lol )

Cycle lanes are mostly a joke in this country, in a bus lane or hard shoulder with a white line ffs. No cycle lanes linking towns and villages through the countryside. In town cycle lanes mean People are inches away from passing traffic.

Most of the people think it's an issue rather than know it's an issue.

Who regularly drives 400km a day without stopping?
1% of drivers maybe.

[Deleted User] · 17-09-2020 12:09pm

GreeBo wrote: »

Most of the people think it's an issue rather than know it's an issue.

Who regularly drives 400km a day without stopping?
1% of drivers maybe.

It doesn't matter, what people want is all that matters. Alone with charge times and charger availability, not many People want to bother with the hassle of going out of their way to plan for charging.

And a lot of People want to drive at the motorway limits and above so they won't get 400 Kms, then add Wind, Rain, cold etc.

It's simple really, Most People want an EV to be as practical as an ICE and they just are not at that point yet in the eyes of most People, the range needs to improve further and also the recharge times and charger availability and the tonnes of People who have no home charging due to being voted down by Management company members or land lords who couldn't care less and will just say no.

So many People really think I'm nuts if I think waiting 30-40 mins to charge the car at a "fast charger" is a viable alternative to ICE cars.

Even if I had a 400 odd km range kona, less on the motorway, less in the cold, wet etc, I'm still going to need to charge and taking a long trip with the missus risking charger queues or broken chargers is a big no no so I'd mostly take the diesel I think if I went back to EV only.

unkel · 17-09-2020 12:16pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Even if I had a 400 odd km range kona, less on the motorway, less in the cold, wet etc, I'm still going to need to charge and taking a long trip with the missus risking charger queues or broken chargers

Ask yourself what is the problem here. Range of the car? No. Range affected so badly by weather that you can't even do 2 hours of motorway driving at the speed limit? No. Having to go out of your way to charge? Yes. Having to wait at chargers? Yes. Coming across a broken charger? Yes.

See the pattern? It's not the car or its range. It's the lack of reliable well placed fast chargers.

Lumen · 17-09-2020 12:21pm

I just think the inconvenience/time factor is massively overplayed. People are not rational, they're just fixated on the status quo.

For several years I commuted into Dublin by motorcycle. It took me 30-40 minutes each way. If I'd taken a car it would have been double that. An hour a day completely wasted.

And you're talking about maybe 30 minutes a week being offputting?

So if drivers really cared about wasting their time sitting around in a car, they'd all be on motorbikes, right? That would be logical.

And if you took a bunch of motorcyclists and offered them cars as a proposition, they'd say "that's madness, why would I want to spend an hour a day sitting around going nowhere?".

How can two groups of people hold completely opposing views when there is a single set of facts? Because people are morons. All of them. Including me.

unkel · 17-09-2020 12:26pm

Lumen wrote: »

Because people are morons.

QFT

Battery swapping is back!

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