EU Democratic Deficit

mick087 · 07-09-2020 6:12pm #1

looksee wrote: »

Can you be a bit specific about what the EU refused to change that led to Brexit? Bearing in mind, of course, that just because the UK wanted something to change it would not happen unless the other members wanted it also.

If there was something specific and the UK could not get all the other members to accommodate them, the only options were that the UK accepted that it was outnumbered and carried on with the status quo, or it could leave.

I don't think that the UK left because the EU 'refused to change', it left because some of the people running the country persuaded voters that things would be better on the other side of Brexit.

So what was the EU expected to do? Was it expected to save the UK from itself? What change were they expected to make? The UK left, why would the EU have any obligations of any sort to the UK, except insofar as it was of benefit to the EU. Why would an independent, sovereign country like the UK need any concessions from the EU - the EU that it had spoken of with contempt, and where the government and press had persuaded the UK voters that anything that went wrong in the UK was down to the EU?

I would not say any one thing was specific but a combination of EU law Democratic deficit in the European Union and immigration. These voices had been growing for a long time and nothing was really done. The UK was never really Europeans.
I would disagree. People voted to leave for various reasons not just because they was led to believe they would be retuning to the good ole days. People voted over issues I stated above and many more besides.
I don’t think the UK needs saving they will be ok as the UK or as separate independent countries. The EU will need to take a long look at itself when Brexit is finally over it will need to answer about its role and its worth to it citizens. I could see more integration coming.

fash · 07-09-2020 6:30pm

mick087 wrote: »

I would not say any one thing was specific but a combination of EU law Democratic deficit in the European Union and immigration.

In what way has the EU a democratic deficit? (Please be specific- I've a suspicion you are using the term without actually knowing much if anything about democracy in the EU -something which is far greater than in the UK for example).
In what way should the EU deal with migration - and considering that it has effectively no power in this are- in what way are you suggesting that power should be transferred to it from member states?

mick087 · 07-09-2020 6:41pm

fash wrote: »

In what way has the EU a democratic deficit? (Please be specific- I've a suspicion you are using the term without actually knowing much if anything about democracy in the EU -something which is far greater than in the UK for example).
In what way should the EU deal with migration - and considering that it has effectively no power in this are- in what way are you suggesting that power should be transferred to it from member states?

These are opinions reason UK citizens voted to leave the EU not mine. Im not a UK citizen and was not allowed to vote in the UK referendum.

Voting for a MEP is a democratic process yes as is The UK voting for its Mps is democratic. But after this process the EU selction process is not in anyway democratic.

VinLieger · 07-09-2020 6:54pm

mick087 wrote: »

These are opinions reason UK citizens voted to leave the EU not mine. Im not a UK citizen and was not allowed to vote in the UK referendum.

Voting for a MEP is a democratic process yes as is The UK voting for its Mps is democratic. But after this process the EU selction process is not in anyway democratic.

Below is a handy chart detailing the UK Government levels and their selection processes VS the EU's. Please keep in mind im simply using this as an informational tool and not trying to put down the UK's section process but from the information detailed in it can you please point out to us exactly which parts of the EU selection processes are undemocratic?

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timetogo1 · 07-09-2020 7:07pm

VinLieger wrote: »

Below is a handy chart detailing the UK Government levels and their selection processes VS the EU's. Please keep in mind im simply using this as an informational tool and not trying to put down the UK's section process but from the information detailed in it can you please point out to us exactly which parts of the EU selection processes are undemocratic?

It's mad that this kind of stuff still has to be repeated 4 years after the referendum.
I suppose it'll still be needed 10 years from now.

Jizique · 07-09-2020 7:47pm

mick087 wrote: »

These are opinions reason UK citizens voted to leave the EU not mine. Im not a UK citizen and was not allowed to vote in the UK referendum.

Voting for a MEP is a democratic process yes as is The UK voting for its Mps is democratic. But after this process the EU selction process is not in anyway democratic.

The UK first past the post system and the upper house is anything but democratic

fash · 07-09-2020 7:53pm

mick087 wrote: »

These are opinions reason UK citizens voted to leave the EU not mine. Im not a UK citizen and was not allowed to vote in the UK referendum.

Voting for a MEP is a democratic process yes as is The UK voting for its Mps is democratic. But after this process the EU selction process is not in anyway democratic.

how and why is it not democratic? Especially compared to the UK system ( who voted for the Queen? For the House of lords? For Johnson to be put into a Tory safe seat? How is a FPTP system democratic?)

mick087 · 07-09-2020 7:58pm

VinLieger wrote: »

Below is a handy chart detailing the UK Government levels and their selection processes VS the EU's. Please keep in mind im simply using this as an informational tool and not trying to put down the UK's section process but from the information detailed in it can you please point out to us exactly which parts of the EU selection processes are undemocratic?

Im not sure what the point of this is.
Are you showing me that royalty is undemocratic?

Do you really want to go into what being democratic is about.

Belive me i have little time for anything as undemocratic as a royal family or selceted not elected leaders.

VinLieger · 07-09-2020 8:28pm

mick087 wrote: »

Im not sure what the point of this is.
Are you showing me that royalty is undemocratic?

Do you really want to go into what being democratic is about.

Belive me i have little time for anything as undemocratic as a royal family or selceted not elected leaders.

Okay im going to do this once more.

I very specifically stated that the point of the image was informational and not about saying anything bad about the UK government selection process, so please stop intentionally misreading or interpreting posts and dodging questions with straw men, whataboutery, deflections and ad hominem arguments.

Now back on topic you clearly claimed that beyond the MEP elections the EU selection processs was undemocratic, I provided you with every major selection process of the EU and how they were decided so can you please point to which are undemocratic and how?

paul71 · 07-09-2020 8:46pm

mick087 wrote: »

Im not sure what the point of this is.
Are you showing me that royalty is undemocratic?

Do you really want to go into what being democratic is about.

Belive me i have little time for anything as undemocratic as a royal family or selceted not elected leaders.

He is making a direct and Demonstrable comparison in an easily understandable format, which proves the EU is fundamentally democratic whereas the UK is is far less so.

It contradicts your unsupported statements and failure to understand that is a willful decision on your part not to correct your prejudices.

mick087 · 07-09-2020 9:30pm

Jizique wrote: »

The UK first past the post system and the upper house is anything but democratic

TheUK Upper house is a totaly undemocratic with unelected selcted individuals given ridiculous pompous titles. If i was a Brit id like to see a end to this but im not.

There first past the post system is democratic.

mick087 · 07-09-2020 9:38pm

paul71 wrote: »

He is making a direct and Demonstrable comparison in an easily understandable format, which proves the EU is fundamentally democratic whereas the UK is is far less so.

It contradicts your unsupported statements and failure to understand that is a willful decision on your part not to correct your prejudices.

But who is the EU democratic to its Citizens or its selcted?
Royality would be even more undemocratic they are not even selcted.
The UK upper house non elected by its citizens this is not democratic.

That chart shows that there is democratic and undemocratic structures that could change to make them more accountable to it citizens.

Sam Russell · 07-09-2020 9:43pm

mick087 wrote: »

TheUK Upper house is a totaly undemocratic with unelected selcted individuals given ridiculous pompous titles. If i was a Brit id like to see a end to this but im not.

There* first past the post system is democratic.

No it is not.

Not since 1932 has a single party Gov been formed with a simple majority of the popular vote. Margaret Thatcher was elected by no more than 42% of the popular vote in any of the elections she won. The FPTP system allows a large number of constituencies to have their MPs selected by a small cabal of party stalwarts, and the selected person is certain to be elected.

This applies to some Labour seats, but mostly to Tory seats. How else would the likes of the bone head MPs like Grayling get elected. Raab, as the Brexit Secretary confessed to the Brexit committee that he had never read the Good Friday Agreement, a 34 page booklet sent to every home on this island. At the time the GFA was central problem to the negotiations he was leading.

*By the way, it is [their] not [there].

mick087 · 07-09-2020 9:49pm

fash wrote: »

how and why is it not democratic? Especially compared to the UK system ( who voted for the Queen? For the House of lords? For Johnson to be put into a Tory safe seat? How is a FPTP system democratic?)

I dont think anyone votes for the queen.
Im not a fan of royality to be honest.

House of lords is another undemocratic organisation

These powerful structures should be democratic and elected by its citizens.

I think we have gone through all this before with you.

Johnson and his safe seat yes its a safe seat but never the less he is elected by the citizens.

mick087 · 07-09-2020 9:55pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

No it is not.

Not since 1932 has a single party Gov been formed with a simple majority of the popular vote. Margaret Thatcher was elected by no more than 42% of the popular vote in any of the elections she won. The FPTP system allows a large number of constituencies to have their MPs selected by a small cabal of party stalwarts, and the selected person is certain to be elected.

This applies to some Labour seats, but mostly to Tory seats. How else would the likes of the bone head MPs like Grayling get elected. Raab, as the Brexit Secretary confessed to the Brexit committee that he had never read the Good Friday Agreement, a 34 page booklet sent to every home on this island. At the time the GFA was central problem to the negotiations he was leading.

*By the way, it is [their] not [there].

Yes it is.

Its just that you dont like it.

Also the UK had a vote not so long ago to keep the first past the post system or cahnge to a system like ours.

Our system for voting a TD and there system in voting a MP are both very democratic differernt but democratic.

But you understood when i said there and not their yes?
Is my spelling gramnmer an issue for you?

looksee · 07-09-2020 10:35pm

Is my spelling gramnmer an issue for you?

Since you ask, yes. Your answers have to be read slowly and punctuation mentally inserted to make sense of them. It is distracting and takes away from the flow of the discussion. However, we are managing to make sense of it. Maybe there is a good reason why you have issues, and you are entitled to offer your opinions, so we will press on.

Can we clarify what it is we are arguing about. On the one hand you seem to suggest that the UK had to leave because the EU was undemocratic and that this in some way gave them obligations towards the UK. On the other hand the UK is undemocratic but that's ok because Johnson was elected. I think.

How does the UK's lack of democracy create an obligation or responsibility towards them by the EU? You say the UK never really wanted to be Europeans - and most people would concur with this. But again, how does this make the EU responsible for their (the UK's) membership, and why should the EU make changes for them?

VinLieger · 07-09-2020 11:02pm

mick087 wrote: »

Yes it is.

Its just that you dont like it.

Also the UK had a vote not so long ago to keep the first past the post system or cahnge to a system like ours.

Our system for voting a TD and there system in voting a MP are both very democratic differernt but democratic.

But you understood when i said there and not their yes?
Is my spelling gramnmer an issue for you?

How is a voting system that has elected just 1 Government by a majority, thanks solely to it being a coalition, in almost 100 years democratic?

Also just to help you heres a very simple video explaining how undemocratic FPtP is vs PR-STV

https://youtu.be/s7tWHJfhiyo

Can you please finally answer how the EU is undemocratic? Ive been waiting quite a while now and you've dodged the question more than enough.

VinLieger · 07-09-2020 11:05pm

mick087 wrote: »

That chart shows that there is democratic and undemocratic structures that could change to make them more accountable to it citizens.

Which ones exactly on the EU side are undemocratic and why?

paul71 · 08-09-2020 3:22am

mick087 wrote: »

But who is the EU democratic to its Citizens or its selcted?
Royality would be even more undemocratic they are not even selcted.
The UK upper house non elected by its citizens this is not democratic.

That chart shows that there is democratic and undemocratic structures that could change to make them more accountable to it citizens.

Please, I am not being argumentative but that is incomprehensible.

"But who is the EU democratic to its Citizens or its selcted?"

Can you retype that, its garbled.

"Royality would be even more undemocratic they are not even selcted."

Again, no idea what you are saying.

"The UK upper house non elected by its citizens this is not democratic."

Yes so you agree.

"That chart shows that there is democratic and undemocratic structures that could change to make them more accountable to it citizens."

The ONLY undemocratic institutions on the chart are in the UK, so you agree?

mick087 · 08-09-2020 9:15am

paul71 wrote: »

Please, I am not being argumentative but that is incomprehensible.

"But who is the EU democratic to its Citizens or its selcted?"

Can you retype that, its garbled.

"Royality would be even more undemocratic they are not even selcted."

Again, no idea what you are saying.

"The UK upper house non elected by its citizens this is not democratic."

Yes so you agree.

"That chart shows that there is democratic and undemocratic structures that could change to make them more accountable to it citizens."

The ONLY undemocratic institutions on the chart are in the UK, so you agree?

Yes i can be guilty of not explaining something properly.
The EU democratic comment, i think you was coming in on a comment i had made.

Here i was pointing out that parts of the EU are in positions of power and have not been elected by its Citizens but selected by member states elected government's.

The UK upper house is what i would call a selection process, this is not democratic at all. Yes i agree 100%

Royalty would not be democratic they are born into Royalty they are not elected by its citizens. They don't even go through a selection process through its elected government. This to is undemocratic but more so than the selected upper house.

The chart shows both have selected not elected by bodies of great power.
The UK does have monarchy as head of state like other European countries have. I have no idea what Europeans fascination of having a monarchy is.

mick087 · 08-09-2020 9:28am

VinLieger wrote: »

Can you please finally answer how the EU is undemocratic? Ive been waiting quite a while now and you've dodged the question more than enough.

MEPs are voted for by its citizens and the they are accountable to its citizens this is democratic.

When you get to the wheels of the real power as in the commission then this is not democratic to its citizens.

Each of the state members elected government select someone as commissioner but bypassing its citizens. This makes them unaccountable not only its own member state citizens but all member state citizens.

Non of the commissioners are elected sitting MEPS non of them area accountable to its citizens. All the commissioners are selected and not elected by its citizens. This is not democratic.

fash · 08-09-2020 9:36am

mick087 wrote: »

MEPs are voted for by its citizens and the they are accountable to its citizens this is democratic.

When you get to the wheels of the real power as in the commission then this is not democratic to its citizens.

Each of the state members elected government select someone as commissioner but bypassing its citizens. This makes them unaccountable not only its own member state citizens but all member state citizens.

Non of the commissioners are elected sitting MEPS non of them area accountable to its citizens. All the commissioners are selected and not elected by its citizens. This is not democratic.

Aside from disputing the relative powers of the EU parliament and other organs, isn't that similar to how the electoral colleges work in the US (and for selecting/electing a much more powerful role) ? Is the American system (even more) undemocratic?
Furthermore is it more or less democratic to give a relatively stronger voice to smaller member states rather than have them drowned out by larger states? (And please explain/justify your choice)

namloc1980 · 08-09-2020 9:52am

mick087 wrote: »

MEPs are voted for by its citizens and the they are accountable to its citizens this is democratic.

When you get to the wheels of the real power as in the commission then this is not democratic to its citizens.

Each of the state members elected government select someone as commissioner but bypassing its citizens. This makes them unaccountable not only its own member state citizens but all member state citizens.

Non of the commissioners are elected sitting MEPS non of them area accountable to its citizens. All the commissioners are selected and not elected by its citizens. This is not democratic.

You are not surely suggesting we should elect commissioners are you? The commissioners are nominated by national governments (who are elected by citizens) and confirmed by the MEPs (who are elected by the citizens).

This is similar to cabinet positions in the United States. Nobody elected Betsy de Vos to be Education secretary for example.

Wanderer78 · 08-09-2020 9:53am

check out varoufakis's 'adults in the room', if you think theres no democratic issues within eu institutions

Hermy · 08-09-2020 9:57am

mick087 wrote: »

MEPs are voted for by its citizens and the they are accountable to its citizens this is democratic.

When you get to the wheels of the real power as in the commission then this is not democratic to its citizens.

Each of the state members elected government select someone as commissioner but bypassing its citizens. This makes them unaccountable not only its own member state citizens but all member state citizens.

Non of the commissioners are elected sitting MEPS non of them area accountable to its citizens. All the commissioners are selected and not elected by its citizens. This is not democratic.

This is where I was twenty years ago when I eagerly rejected all four Nice and Lisbon referenda. I swallowed the line that the EU was fundamentally undemocratic because I didn't get to vote on every appointment and decision made.
But the whole point of voting people into office - whether that be at local, national or supranational level in the case of the EU - is that those people then have executive powers to make decisions and appointments on our behalves.
This is not undemocratic and those elected or selected are not unaccountable.
The alternative would be to have the electorate vote on every matter that comes before the governing body and that would be chaotic.

mick087 · 08-09-2020 10:04am

looksee wrote: »

Since you ask, yes. Your answers have to be read slowly and punctuation mentally inserted to make sense of them. It is distracting and takes away from the flow of the discussion. However, we are managing to make sense of it. Maybe there is a good reason why you have issues, and you are entitled to offer your opinions, so we will press on.

Can we clarify what it is we are arguing about. On the one hand you seem to suggest that the UK had to leave because the EU was undemocratic and that this in some way gave them obligations towards the UK. On the other hand the UK is undemocratic but that's ok because Johnson was elected. I think.

How does the UK's lack of democracy create an obligation or responsibility towards them by the EU? You say the UK never really wanted to be Europeans - and most people would concur with this. But again, how does this make the EU responsible for their (the UK's) membership, and why should the EU make changes for them?

Educational prejudice can be quite upsetting and demoralising but i don't actually buy into you thinking this is an issue. More than likely the real issue is i don't agree with some of the comments or maybe your ow personnel view point.

No i have never suggested the UK had to leave the EU because it was undemocratic you are deliberately exaggerating what i have said. I said this was one of many reasons that the UK voters decided to leave the EU not that they had to.

The UK like the EU lacks democracy in that the UK have a selected upper house and the EU have a selected commission.

Yes correct Johnson was elected and now he is accountable to his citizens in his constituency.

The EU did not change and the UK left.

Sam Russell · 08-09-2020 10:10am

Democracy is implemented differently in every democratic country in the world. Our system of STV voting is almost unique in the world. Some countries use a list system, a mixed personal vote system plus a list system. It varies, but in the end, people vote their government in. The EU insists that basic democratic norms are kept in all member states.

MEPs are elected directly by the citizens of the member state by some form of proportional representation. So that is democratic. Some member states have variations on what that means, but it is fundamentally democratic.

The Commission is appointed by each member state appointing one commissioner. The Government in question is assumed to be democratic, and each member state is allowed to hold elections for the commissioner but none do. The Commission is approved by the European Parliament, with each commissioner being before a committee for approval, and the whole commission can be sacked by the EP. So it is accountable to a democratic body. So it is under democratic control.

The European Council is made up of serving Prime Ministers for each member state, who are democratically elected, so that body is democratic.

So if all pillars are democratic, or under democratic accountability, where is the democratic deficit?

mick087 · 08-09-2020 10:10am

fash wrote: »

Aside from disputing the relative powers of the EU parliament and other organs, isn't that similar to how the electoral colleges work in the US (and for selecting/electing a much more powerful role) ? Is the American system (even more) undemocratic?
Furthermore is it more or less democratic to give a relatively stronger voice to smaller member states rather than have them drowned out by larger states? (And please explain/justify your choice)

I wouldn't be clued up on how it works in America.

I don't buy into this smaller states not being drowned out by the larger states. There is much inequality throughout the EU states.

The only way you can have a strong voice is through its citizens.

VinLieger · 08-09-2020 10:14am

mick087 wrote: »

MEPs are voted for by its citizens and the they are accountable to its citizens this is democratic.

When you get to the wheels of the real power as in the commission then this is not democratic to its citizens.

Each of the state members elected government select someone as commissioner but bypassing its citizens. This makes them unaccountable not only its own member state citizens but all member state citizens.

Non of the commissioners are elected sitting MEPS non of them area accountable to its citizens. All the commissioners are selected and not elected by its citizens. This is not democratic.

I didnt get a say in who was going to be Minister for Justice in the new Irish Government, your twisted logic and infantile definition of democracy means this is equally as undemocratic because we didnt get a say in every cabinet position.

Also what happened with Phil Hogan completely disproves your point that the commissioners are unaccountable to their citizens. He did wrong and resigned, accountability.

What you seem to be calling for is that we have a say on every single decision that is ever made at any level of Ireland or the EU?

Sam Russell · 08-09-2020 10:19am

mick087 wrote: »

Educational prejudice can be quite upsetting and demoralising but i don't actually buy into you thinking this is an issue. More than likely the real issue is i don't agree with some of the comments or maybe your ow personnel view point.

No i have never suggested the UK had to leave the EU because it was undemocratic you are deliberately exaggerating what i have said. I said this was one of many reasons that the UK voters decided to leave the EU not that they had to.

The UK like the EU lacks democracy in that the UK have a selected upper house and the EU have a selected commission.

Yes correct Johnson was elected and now he is accountable to his citizens in his constituency.

The EU did not change and the UK left.

The House of Lords is not a 'selected' house. It consists of heredatory peers who are descended from the same stock of privileged classes that owe their wealth to historical graft granted by previous monarchs. Also, 'life peers' are appointed by political parties to gift privileged positions to retired, failed or other disappointed politicians, and to party donors. The appointment of such 'life peers' is completely opaque, and the opposite of democratic.

It should be abolished, and replaced by a more democratic institution.

mick087 · 08-09-2020 10:24am

namloc1980 wrote: »

You are not surely suggesting we should elect commissioners are you? The commissioners are nominated by national governments (who are elected by citizens) and confirmed by the MEPs (who are elected by the citizens).

This is similar to cabinet positions in the United States. Nobody elected Betsy de Vos to be Education secretary for example.

I would not be able to comment on the USA. But if the gentleman is in a unelected position of power and i lived in America id want to know how as a citizen i could get rid of him.

Yes why not why should we not be permitted to vote for our state commissioner?

If the commissioners were an elected MEP then yes you could compare this to a minister. A minister is first elected by its citizens as a TD. The citizens first vote for him to become a TD. A commissioner is not elected by citizens at any point.

So if the commissioner was selected from the elected MEPS then yes that would be more democratic and also answerable to its citizens.

EU Democratic Deficit

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