How to get a licence for a RESTRICTED RIFLE

jb88 · 23-05-2020 4:36pm #1

I thought its time to share ten years plus of applying for and getting licences for restricted rifles and shotguns.

These are my experiences and how I dealt with the situations presented

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Firstly I have licences for the following in Semi Auto.

M1 Garand in 30 06

M1 Carbine in 30 cal x2 (One licence in progress)

AR15 in .223
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In an Underlever .38/357 Marlin 1894 CS

Remington 870 Pump action shotgun.
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I would start by pointing out that all of the above firearms are for Target shooting in Ireland and competitively abroad.

Currently the main range I frequent is Midlands but I do attend other ranges and have also been a member of other ranges in the past.

I was previously a member of Harbour House and will continue to support the club in any way I can.
***Please note I held licences for all of these firearms, with the exception of the AR 15 while a member of Harbour House only*****.

Its not necessary to be a member of a specific range to get a specific type of firearm.. "In my experience".

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Applying for a restricted rifle licence or shotgun requires that you be a member of a registered range, that can be any range. if the range doesn't have the facilities then make sure you clearly state in a letter in support of your application that you can attend another range where necessary to use that firearm.

90% of people get these type of firearms in order to compete in competitions, the other 10% is not dealt with in the course of this information.

In my case in applying for all of the above, I wrote a detailed letter in support of my application, explaining why I wanted the firearm, the specific disciplines I required it for shooting.

In the case of the first 3 firearms above I require them for competing in CMP competitions in the US (Unfortunately cancelled this year), lets hope I get a refund and my flights changed.
Semi auto Centrefire rifles with the exception of the M1 Carbine are just for CMP shooting. (M1 Carbine, can be used for Gallery rifle competitions as well)

The shooting for the CMP for the M1 Garand is 200 yards, (Open sights)
For the AR 15 its primarily 200 and 300 yard shooting, but also 600 yards with a 4 powered scope.
The M1 Carbine is for 100 yards (Open sights)
No other firearm fits these requirements for these types of competition so that information is also indicated in my application.
In addition competition experience and range attendance is important. Ive never been asked to supply any details of range attendance to any member of the Gardaí in support of any firearms application I have ever submitted, maybe its just me.

I have been asked to supply written information that the range is in fact authorised for the firearms calibres in the past.

I have been asked to supply details of the monitored alarm company I use and that there is an up to date certificate, usually supplied every year when they do maintenance.

I have supplied pictures of the various safes and security measures in and around the home. (This information was requested by one Super)

But the most important thing is the letter detailing all of this included in the application.
What, where and when.
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Most importantly if your having any problems request a call with the Super or with the Chief and be capable of having a sit down conversation and grilling about why its required, that's how you survive and get your licence granted.
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The area above in my district is a pre requisite for getting a restricted licence granted in everyones case, and in renewals in all years from 2009 until 2019

While typing this, I got a phone call from a friend asking me to send him some info on this in support of his application. He has restricted firearms already and is in my district so he knows he needs my help to be successful.

Now I am almost certain that this has been detailed already by other members.

But be aware and there are far too many forum members quick to jump on the band wagon and criticise. Well so be it.

"Be professional be polite ….."

This is what I did, it works for me and others in my district.

Just please please please, stop putting information up about being bull****ted by your Super,(FO) this information goes to the Chief to sign off on. Speak to the head guy, in my experience they will always take a meeting, they may not like what they are hearing, but who cares. Its their job to enforce the law, not make it up..

Over the last 11 years I have met 5 different Chiefs and only one Super face to face and only ever spoke to them or their secretaries, Ive never really had any contact with the FO in 15 years apart from one visit.

I couldn't tell you the name of any FO if you asked me, they don't exist in my district from what ive seen and if they do they are very well hidden.

This is all I can think of at the moment, but as there are very few who even attempt this process because its "too difficult", well its not, in fact its very easy once you get going. No more difficult than a normal unrestricted licence application. IF YOUR ORGANISED.

If you want more detailed information PM me.
Best of luck in your prospective application

clivej · 23-05-2020 4:59pm

Great write up, well written and explains a lot.

cookimonster · 23-05-2020 5:08pm

Great info, thanks.

You had me on :

jb88 wrote: »

M1 Garand in 30 06[/B]

Never had the pleasure of shooting one, held one in a Galway Gun shop about 9 years back. I always have a soft spot for them.

Grizzly 45 · 23-05-2020 8:40pm

Well, that was a extremely painless experiance compared to what alot of us had to go thru in the oughties and tens.:eek::D

Glad it went soo smothly for you JB. I wish and hope it goes exactly like that smoothly and painless for any and all other applicants.:)

BTW you are also welcome to use any of those rifles for Bullseye360 up at Midlands too,so you have another good reason for such.We have a good crew of CF semi auto lads in CF and rim,and might if there is enough intrest ad the orgsnisers agree make semi a class in its own right.
PM me if you want some more details.

jb88 · 24-05-2020 3:14am

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Well, that was a extremely painless experiance compared to what alot of us had to go thru in the oughties and tens.:eek::D

Glad it went soo smothly for you JB. I wish and hope it goes exactly like that smoothly and painless for any and all other applicants.:)

BTW you are also welcome to use any of those rifles for Bullseye360 up at Midlands too,so you have another good reason for such.We have a good crew of CF semi auto lads in CF and rim,and might if there is enough intrest ad the orgsnisers agree make semi a class in its own right.
PM me if you want some more details.

It was far from smooth Griz, I had to fight my own battles, now its a whole new story, lets see how I do this time around ;-)

I know Paul and Christy, great lads and of course Paddy and Rex

I competed in it a lot back in the day, when I wasn't a member of the club. Great competition, well organised and well run.

Grizzly 45 · 24-05-2020 1:30pm

I figured you couldn't have had that a smooth a sailing.;)

[General info]BTW for the Bullseye 360,you dont have to be a club member of MNSCI. It's an open competition to all.Both pistol and rifle Always was ASFIK.

Mellor · 26-05-2020 1:51am

jb88 wrote: »

Speak to the head guy, in my experience they will always take a meeting, they may not like what they are hearing, but who cares. Its their job to enforce the law, not make it up..

Great write up and great advice, especially this part.

People think of the super/chief as the enemy. Obviously some operate above their station. But in reality they just apply the law by others. The best thing you can do in know the law and approach it professionally.

This is all I can think of at the moment, but as there are very few who even attempt this process because its "too difficult", well its not, in fact its very easy once you get going. No more difficult than a normal unrestricted licence application. IF YOUR ORGANISED.

One aspect is the difficulty. Another is general ignorance. A lot of people have the mistaken idea that restricted means prohibited. As, you are well aware, is not the case. There's possibly a element of intentional misleading from the department on that matter, as they blur the prohibited/restricted lists.

Munsterlad102 · 26-05-2020 4:00pm

Are there any competitions in Ireland for ar15s or is it just an American event? Also where would you find cheap .223 ammunition? The cheapest I could find was 20 of .223 American Eagle for €13.50, is this as good as it’ll get or can I do better?

clivej · 26-05-2020 7:08pm

Munsterlad102 wrote: »

Are there any competitions in Ireland for ar15s or is it just an American event? Also where would you find cheap .223 ammunition? The cheapest I could find was 20 of .223 American Eagle for €13.50, is this as good as it’ll get or can I do better?

The Bullseye comp. held at the Midlands range,

50 rounds box for about €40 ish

The pigeon man · 26-05-2020 8:58pm

Munsterlad102 wrote: »

Are there any competitions in Ireland for ar15s or is it just an American event? Also where would you find cheap .223 ammunition? The cheapest I could find was 20 of .223 American Eagle for €13.50, is this as good as it’ll get or can I do better?

https://www.gunshop.ie/American-Eagle-223-REM-FMJ-55-Grain-20-Rounds-Box-p193157317

Buy 15 boxs and get them for €11 a box. Probably should be put in the bargain alerts thread.

Grizzly 45 · 27-05-2020 12:59am

Munsterlad102 wrote: »

Are there any competitions in Ireland for ar15s or is it just an American event? Also where would you find cheap .223 ammunition? The cheapest I could find was 20 of .223 American Eagle for €13.50, is this as good as it’ll get or can I do better?

An Riocht in Kerry runs an "Irish" version of service rifle too. That was also one of the original competition set up for MSR here.

jb88 · 29-05-2020 9:43pm

cookimonster wrote: »

Great info, thanks.

You had me on :

Never had the pleasure of shooting one, held one in a Galway Gun shop about 9 years back. I always have a soft spot for them.

If you want an M1 Garand in 30 06 or .308 or any gun you think you might want but cant find, especially Milsurps/Big underlever guns/Pistols and many more just contact Pat O Mahony in An Riocht. He can get whatever is legal in Ireland.

Pat has plenty of contacts and always a pleasure to deal with

You might be surprised but if you don't ask you wont get.

jb88 · 29-05-2020 9:50pm

The best .223 ammo ive come across for target shooting in Ireland for 200 and 300 yards shooting with an AR is magtec .223 55g FMJ At 30 quid a box of 50. from Brian at Harbour guns.

I found another dealer and made a bulk purchase but that dealer is no longer in business.

Grizzly 45 · 30-05-2020 1:13pm

jb88 wrote: »

If you want an M1 Garand in 30 06 or .308 or any gun you think you might want but cant find, especially Milsurps/Big underlever guns/Pistols and many more just contact Pat O Mahony in An Riocht. He can get whatever is legal in Ireland.

Pat has plenty of contacts and always a pleasure to deal with

You might be surprised but if you don't ask you wont get.

And he is some chacter as well...Last of the old school gun dealers and a true Kerry gent.:):)

clivej · 30-05-2020 5:46pm

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

And he is some chacter as well...Last of the old school gun dealers and a true Kerry gent.:):)

And bring an interpreter with ya, he only speaks Kerry

Ml cav · 05-09-2020 7:53pm

Hi
Just wondering if you can ease my mind a little,as you seem to be very knolagble ref restricted firearms.
I am in process of purchasing a restricted airgun ,fx impact,it has magazine behind trigger,and pistol grip,I think that's what makes it restricted. But I just want it because I'm upgrading,I use my fx royal for rabbits and rats,and want impact for same,do you think this will be ok for super,or will i have to join shooting range and go down that road,if i go that road are u still allowed to hunt with it.its very confusing,and we have a stickler of a fo.any advise would be great.
Thanks

juice1304 · 05-09-2020 8:12pm

Ml cav wrote: »

Hi
Just wondering if you can ease my mind a little,as you seem to be very knolagble ref restricted firearms.
I am in process of purchasing a restricted airgun ,fx impact,it has magazine behind trigger,and pistol grip,I think that's what makes it restricted. But I just want it because I'm upgrading,I use my fx royal for rabbits and rats,and want impact for same,do you think this will be ok for super,or will i have to join shooting range and go down that road,if i go that road are u still allowed to hunt with it.its very confusing,and we have a stickler of a fo.any advise would be great.
Thanks

You have to have a specific reason for getting a restricted licence, and prove that a non restricted firearm couldnt acomplish the same thing etc.. You cant just say because you want one etc. Its the chief super who will decide. That being said its an air rifle. Requiring a restricted licence for an air rifle is just nonsensical. You would be better off asking your chief super.

Mellor · 06-09-2020 2:11am

Pistol grip is irrelevant on an air-rifle.
Bull pup technically would make it restricted.

Cass · 06-09-2020 12:41pm

Ml cav wrote: »

I am in process of purchasing a restricted airgun ,fx impact,it has magazine behind trigger,and pistol grip,I think that's what makes it restricted.

The pistol grip is somewhat irrelevant (unless the Chief Super wants to go down the looks like an assault rifle route), but the magazine behind the trigger under Irish law makes it a Bullpup as per SI 21/2008.

SI 21/2008 wrote:

“bullpup rifles” means rifles with a magazine located behind the trigger;

But I just want it because I'm upgrading,I use my fx royal for rabbits and rats,and want impact for same,do you think this will be ok for super,or will i have to join shooting range and go down that road,

Joining a range is redundant as this is not your "Good reason" for wanting it and even if you were to join a range unless you specifically ask for the rifle for target shooting AND hunting you still won't be able to hunt with it, only target shoot.

Your good reason for wanting this is to hunt with it. If you are trading the old FX for the impact and they're both essentially the same rifle with the only difference being the design of the Impact makes it Bullpup under Irish law then your job is convince the Chief Super why you need this above the Royale.

Frankly i don't know enough about air rifles to give a good argument, but there is one route you could try. Reasoning. Explain to the Chief Super that in every other country the Impact is sold in its either licensed as an air rifle or not subject to license. Explain that you know they require a license in RoI and you're not arguing this point however a design feature of the rifle means that you are subject to a restricted license application for the exact same type of rifle as the Royale simply because of where FX decided to locate the magazine. IOW its not your fault that your choice of rifle, coupled with Irish law and the design of the rifle all combine to make a rifle that if the magazine were three inches forward would be an unrestricted rifle.

In short you are arguing the point that you should be free to own whatever make/model of firearm you want and not be limited to a select few or even one brand simply because the other(s) place the firearm into a different category of licensing.

Now that may or may not go down well so i wouldn't use it as your sole reason/argument. Explain about the superior performance of the Impact, and any other features it has above the Royale or even another brand of rifle. Have more than one reason.

if i go that road are u still allowed to hunt with it.

Yes, the restricted category is only for licensing purposes, and once you apply for the license for the purpose of hunting (and it's granted under that condition) you're golden.

its very confusing,and we have a stickler of a fo.any advise would be great.
Thanks

I knew this issue would come up and i have a feeling you are the first to mention it, but won't be the last.

In the past two months a single RFD has contacted the DoJ and the supplier of FX Impact rifles in the UK complaining about other RFDs selling this type of rifle in which he pointed out to both parties (DoJ, UK supplier) that the rifle is in fact a restricted firearm and those in possession of one with an unrestricted license are in fact NOT LICENSED, by default.

This has lead to, and i've first hand accounting of this, among other things:

Some receiving a letter from the RFD they bought it from (not necessarily the RFD that started this) saying they had to surrender their rifle back to them, the RFD by order/direction of the DoJ.
The UK supplier refusing to ship the rifles to Irish RFDs,
The DoJ contacting some RFDs regarding the rifles they have sold
Rifle owners being contacted to say they have the wrong license and are essentially unlicensed so to return the rifle to the RFd for storage
The DoJ to examine the categorisation of the rifle (which never ends well) and seek revocation of the currently licensed rifles

It also raises a huge number of problems:

The rifles are actually bullpup, as defined under Irish law, with the magazine behind the trigger hence restricted. As most RFDs selling these rifles are not a restricted RFD they cannot sell or store restricted firearms. So how can they take these rifles in?
The rifles are still the property of the customer. As property (which is different to possession) they cannot simply send it back for a different make/model without the owner consent and/or compensation.
How can any RFD, even under the direction of the DoJ, essentially revoke a firearms license? The DoJ cannot even do that, it's the duty of the Super/Chief Super.
Why are people being told to return their firearm for a change of model because of the incorrect licensing and not given the opportunity to license them as restricted?
If people do surrender them will they not be admitting to being in breach of the firearms act by applying for a restricted firearm as an unrestricted firearm and taking possession of said firearm with the wrong license.
Are the RFDs (and there are three others who are involved in this "recall") going to be held accountable for selling restricted firearms without the necessary restricted RFD license to customers without the necessary restricted license?

Its a can of worms and why the RFD who started the ball rolling on this done so is beyond me. He has in effect destroyed his own ability to sell these.

Grizzly 45 · 06-09-2020 6:51pm

Always has to be one spiteful/jealous/ begrudgeing /idiotic/ greedy bollix out there to put the damn cat amongst the piegons ....:rolleyes:

*]Some receiving a letter from the RFD they bought it from (not necessarily the RFD that started this) saying they had to surrender their rifle back to them,
AGS Super's job not the RFD

[*]The rifles are still the property of the customer. As property (which is different to possession) they cannot simply send it back for a different make/model without the owner consent and/or compensation.

Yup...

[*]Are the RFDs (and there are three others who are involved in this "recall") going to be held accountable for selling restricted firearms without the necessary restricted RFD license to customers without the necessary restricted license?
[*]If people do surrender them will they not be admitting to being in breach of the firearms act by applying for a restricted firearm as an unrestricted firearm and taking possession of said firearm with the wrong license.

Putting all 3 together as they are all related
I'd,speculate here...Tricky legal point ...While "ignorance of the law...etc" would apply, Not everyone out there in the shooting community are up on it either and could possibly claim that they purchased them on good faith of the word of the dealer as being unrestricted? As a dealer should be knowledgeable on the law themselves? Better left to a law professional that one.

They are also looking at possibly being sued themselves by their customers for;
Knowingly selling them these guns under false pretences of being unrestricted items. Could get messy depending on how much AGS and the Dept want to push this,and how much the owners end out of pocket.

Definitely the dealers do have a nasty legal problem on their hands...But what is the sanction in law for something like this?

It's not like they were supplying criminal organisations with firearms out the back door. They were granted firearms liscenses in good faith for these guns,whether liscensed incorrectly by malice or not understanding the legislation.

This sounds like more either arm chancing,or "ignorance" on one or more parties involved....Is it severe enough to warrant a dealership loss?Or a good smack on the hands with a steel ruler type fine and black mark?
Depends I guess on how much of malice aforethought and conspiracy went into this by all involved?

*]Why are people being told to return their firearm for a change of model because of the incorrect licensing and not given the opportunity to license them as restricted?

Good question.

jb88 · 06-09-2020 7:23pm

Im not familiar with anything other than Restricted Centrefire Rifles and Shotguns im afraid. Ive been asked about Air rifles etc before and its not covered by me in the scope of this thread.
Others may wish to comment and some already have by the looks of it.

Ml cav · 07-09-2020 9:14pm

jb88 wrote: »

Im not familiar with anything other than Restricted Centrefire Rifles and Shotguns im afraid. Ive been asked about Air rifles etc before and its not covered by me in the scope of this thread.
Others may wish to comment and some already have by the looks of it.

Hi
Jb88 I appreciate you reply and knowledge on this matter,it has been a great help to me going foward
Thanks again

Grizzly 45 · 07-09-2020 9:28pm

Ridiculous that we even are licensing air guns in the first place, whether bullpup or not.:rolleyes:

Peppa Cig · 07-09-2020 9:49pm

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Ridiculous that we even are licensing air guns in the first place, whether bullpup or not.:rolleyes:

Air rifles can push 80ft/lbs+.

They should be licensed imo but the notion of a restricted licence for an air rifle is farcical.

BattleCorp · 07-09-2020 10:33pm

Peppa Cig wrote: »

Air rifles can push 80ft/lbs+.

They should be licensed imo but the notion of a restricted licence for an air rifle is farcical.

As is a rifle being restricted based upon where upon the stock the magazine is located.

Cass · 07-09-2020 10:41pm

As is a gun being restricted based solely on appearance, regardless of functionality.

The laws of this country are at times nonsensical and other times an utter joke. This is the result of bastardised laws that are mash ups and "one upmanships" of other countries laws that simply don't work.

This mess is brought to us, once again, by one of our "own". The last ten years have seen so called shooting groups, organisations/bodies, and personnel cause more harm in their attempts to control, corner, milk, and make money from the shooting community. Sometimes its as simple as outright sour grapes.

Whatever the cause/reason is no excuse for the harm they inflict.

Mellor · 08-09-2020 1:07am

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Ridiculous that we even are licensing air guns in the first place, whether bullpup or not.:rolleyes:

I've no idea what the upper force limit is for airguns. But I wouldn't be happy with any old scumbag being about to pick up a high powered one with cash and away he goes. But there needs to be a logical point where the muzzle energy makes it licence requiring. Easy to implement, the current limit is ridiculous.

Agree, the bullpup restriction is silly on air guns. The bull pup is restricted (presumably) as the design allows it to be more easily concealed. The same way other categories have length requirements.

Ml cav, If the bullpup is is the issues, I'd attack that requirement in your justification. I'd point that FX Airguns make compact models like the below;
https://hermannsguns.com.au/fx-dreamline-lite-compact-pcp-air-rifle/
That are the same length as the gun you want, but are not bullpup, therefore it;s redundant as there are no other length requirements on the firearm.

fiestaman · 14-11-2020 1:36am

Ml cav wrote: »

Hi
Just wondering if you can ease my mind a little,as you seem to be very knolagble ref restricted firearms.
I am in process of purchasing a restricted airgun ,fx impact,it has magazine behind trigger,and pistol grip,I think that's what makes it restricted. But I just want it because I'm upgrading,I use my fx royal for rabbits and rats,and want impact for same,do you think this will be ok for super,or will i have to join shooting range and go down that road,if i go that road are u still allowed to hunt with it.its very confusing,and we have a stickler of a fo.any advise would be great.
Thanks

Just woundering how you faired out, did you persue the impact and how did it go??

jb88 · 14-11-2020 2:17pm

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Well, that was a extremely painless experiance compared to what alot of us had to go thru in the oughties and tens.:eek::D

Glad it went soo smothly for you JB. I wish and hope it goes exactly like that smoothly and painless for any and all other applicants.:)

BTW you are also welcome to use any of those rifles for Bullseye360 up at Midlands too,so you have another good reason for such.We have a good crew of CF semi auto lads in CF and rim,and might if there is enough intrest ad the orgsnisers agree make semi a class in its own right.
PM me if you want some more details.

Ive competed heavily in those competitions years ago. Stopped attending when they ran out of medals. A bit more challenging than Gallery, and an a lot more friendly relaxed atmosphere. Great group of guys

jb88 · 14-11-2020 2:19pm

fiestaman wrote: »

Just woundering how you faired out, did you persue the impact and how did it go??

In my case I have zero knowledge of Air rifles. Not my gig im afraid and not really within the scope of the title of the thread which deals with Restricted Rifles.

Munsterlad102 · 14-11-2020 5:51pm

JB88, I hope you don't mind me asking why you're licencing the second M1 carbine? Pardon my ignorance, but would one not do the job?

Shooting Forum - Firearms licencing information

How to get a licence for a RESTRICTED RIFLE

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