Rule query / opinion

Russman · 31-08-2020 2:15pm #1

Just thought I'd get the views of the forum on a rules issue to do with Rule 7.4.

The rule states "There is no penalty if the player's ball is accidentally moved by the player, opponent, or anyone else in trying to find or identify it"

Anyway, on one hole yesterday I hit my second shot (from c200yds) way offline into rough between the adjacent hole and the hole i'm playing. I'm walking over wondering how far right I was and if I got out far enough to not be hindered by a tree short right of the green or if I'd have to go over the tree, when I heard a sound, looked down and realised I'd driven my trolley over my ball in the (at least) ankle length grass, plugging it. I hadn't found the ball up to that point, I was walking to where I thought it was, which was 15/20 yards further than than it turned out to be.

Penalty, yes or no ?

For the record I did replace the ball and penalise myself just to be safe, but still felt it might be a bit grey.

paulos53 · 31-08-2020 2:25pm

The penalty sounds correct as you hadn't started looking for your ball.

9.4b/2 Meaning of “Trying to Find”

In Rule 7.4 (Ball Accidentally Moved in Trying to Find or Identify It) and Exception 2 of Rule 9.4, there is no penalty if a ball is accidentally moved while "trying to find" it. "Trying to find" includes actions that can reasonably be considered part of searching for the ball, including the actions allowed by Rule 7.1 (How to Fairly Search for Ball). It does not include actions before a search begins such as walking to the area where the ball is expected to be.

For example, a player's ball is hit towards a wooded area. The player is not aware the ball has struck a tree and deflected back towards the teeing area. When the player is still some distance from the area where he or she believes the ball is likely to be and before starting to search, the player accidentally kicks his or her ball. Because this was not while trying to find the ball, the player gets one penalty stroke under Rule 9.4b for accidentally moving his or her ball and must replace the ball.

prawnsambo · 31-08-2020 2:27pm

Firstly, if you're going to give yourself a penalty, you might as well take the full relief allowed under penalty. So ball unplayable basically and two club lengths applies.

You don't get embedded ball relief if you step on the ball and plug it into the ground. You can only get that if it's a direct result of your stroke. Rule 16.3

So you were right to penalise yourself as you'd plugged the ball and effectively given yourself relief from the plugged ball. But you should have taken full relief and given yourself a better lie (presumably).

Russman · 31-08-2020 2:50pm

paulos53 wrote: »

The penalty sounds correct as you hadn't started looking for your ball.

That was my original thought, and I was (and still am) happy enough with the penalty.
I was just wondering where "started looking" began. It could be argued that 15 yards short of where you think it is, is in the same area, when your eyes are fixed on where you hope it will be. Hilly course & the ball had to travel around/behind a stand of trees to get to where it was. Slightly different to ricocheting off a tree into a totally unexpected area.
Not arguing with you either, I'd always err on the side of penalising rather than justifying.

Russman · 31-08-2020 2:53pm

prawnsambo wrote: »

Firstly, if you're going to give yourself a penalty, you might as well take the full relief allowed under penalty. So ball unplayable basically and two club lengths applies.

You don't get embedded ball relief if you step on the ball and plug it into the ground. You can only get that if it's a direct result of your stroke. Rule 16.3

So you were right to penalise yourself as you'd plugged the ball and effectively given yourself relief from the plugged ball. But you should have taken full relief and given yourself a better lie (presumably).

I wasn't aware of that about no relief if you step on the ball, interesting.
As it happens we were playing preferred lies, so it didn't matter, but potentially could have alright.

DuckSlice · 31-08-2020 3:26pm

prawnsambo wrote: »

Firstly, if you're going to give yourself a penalty, you might as well take the full relief allowed under penalty. So ball unplayable basically and two club lengths applies.

You don't get embedded ball relief if you step on the ball and plug it into the ground. You can only get that if it's a direct result of your stroke. Rule 16.3

So you were right to penalize yourself as you'd plugged the ball and effectively given yourself relief from the plugged ball. But you should have taken full relief and given yourself a better lie (presumably).

I dont think you can take this approach. If you are taking a penalty for driving over your ball with your buggy you cant then to decide to take an unplayable. its 2 separate events and would have to be 2 separate penalties. Thats the way i would think it.

I think its very harsh that you get penalied for accidently moving your ball on the way to where you think it is. You wouldnt be in that area but for you are looking for your ball. Some rules are still daft.

prawnsambo · 31-08-2020 3:46pm

Russman wrote: »

I wasn't aware of that about no relief if you step on the ball, interesting.
As it happens we were playing preferred lies, so it didn't matter, but potentially could have alright.

Well unless you were playing with the model local rule for lift, clean and replace in the rough, you couldn't have qualifying and preferred lies everywhere.

etxp wrote: »

I dont think you can take this approach. If you are taking a penalty for driving over your ball with your buggy you cant then to decide to take an unplayable. its 2 separate events and would have to be 2 separate penalties. Thats the way i would think it.

It's not a penalty for driving over it, you just don't get embedded ball relief. Technically I don't think it's moving the ball. It's the same as stepping on it. Not a penalty, but you either have to play the embedded ball as it lies or take an unplayable.

etxp wrote: »

I think its very harsh that you get penalied for accidently moving your ball on the way to where you think it is. You wouldnt be in that area but for you are looking for your ball. Some rules are still daft.

To be fair, that rule seems to relate to the ball being moved in a completely different area to where you thought it came to rest. I presume it's to stop people using the 'foot wedge' by accident on purpose.

GreeBo · 31-08-2020 4:40pm

paulos53 wrote: »

The penalty sounds correct as you hadn't started looking for your ball.

" "Trying to find" includes actions that can reasonably be considered part of searching for the ball"

I dont know about you guys, but I have to get to my ball before I can start searching for it, so I wouldnt be excluding "walking to where I think the ball is".

IMO, that rule is to exclude things like "I started lashing my club randomly in the long grass and I hit the ball" compared to "I was carefully searching the long grass and my hand moved the ball".

GreeBo · 31-08-2020 4:49pm

prawnsambo wrote: »

It's not a penalty for driving over it, you just don't get embedded ball relief. Technically I don't think it's moving the ball. It's the same as stepping on it. Not a penalty, but you either have to play the embedded ball as it lies or take an unplayable.

Why would you think that you have to play the embedded ball?
If you move the ball you put it back, why is embedding any different?

You place it back as close as possible in as close a lie as possible as it originally was.
If you dont know the original spot, you drop it instead of placing it.
All under no penalty.

Hoboo · 31-08-2020 4:56pm

All very grey. I'm looking for my ball from 50 yards away. You'd nearly have to declare when you're beginning your search, if nothing else for time limit purposes.

Love this game.

blue note · 31-08-2020 5:09pm

I'm with Greebo. I'm entirely in favour of playing by the rules, but this just seems like you were looking for somewhere to penalise yourself instead of looking for your ball!

When I'm going to find my ball I'll walk along the line I think it's at in case I came up short. So if I was about 5m into the rough, I'll walk parallel to the fairway from at least 20m back to where I think it is in case I came up short. And if I walked on it I would certainly consider that to be penalty free. In fairness, I can see how you're thinking. If I was to start the 3 minutes I'd start it from after I walk past where I expected my ball to be, so when I realised I'm looking for a ball as opposed to walking to my ball that's not visible yet. But that just strikes me as twisting the rule to penalise yourself. It's certainly not the intention of the rule that you'd get a penalty for that.

Oddly if I was not paying attention walking along the fairway and kicked the ball I'd consider that a penalty. It's kind of the same thing but really it's not.

prawnsambo · 31-08-2020 5:31pm

GreeBo wrote: »

Why would you think that you have to play the embedded ball?
If you move the ball you put it back, why is embedding any different?

You place it back as close as possible in as close a lie as possible as it originally was.
If you dont know the original spot, you drop it instead of placing it.
All under no penalty.

I referred to the rule above. If you step on your ball while searching for it and as a result embed it in the ground, you don't get the normal embedded ball relief.

Russman · 31-08-2020 7:00pm

prawnsambo wrote: »

Well unless you were playing with the model local rule for lift, clean and replace in the rough, you couldn't have qualifying and preferred lies everywhere.

It was non qualifying because of the conditions. Mad for August eh !!

GreeBo wrote: »

" "Trying to find" includes actions that can reasonably be considered part of searching for the ball"

I dont know about you guys, but I have to get to my ball before I can start searching for it, so I wouldnt be excluding "walking to where I think the ball is".

IMO, that rule is to exclude things like "I started lashing my club randomly in the long grass and I hit the ball" compared to "I was carefully searching the long grass and my hand moved the ball".

Reflecting on it today I tend to agree with this. The ball being a few yards short of where you thought it was is reasonably within the meaning of “trying to find”, I think.

blue note wrote: »

I'm with Greebo. I'm entirely in favour of playing by the rules, but this just seems like you were looking for somewhere to penalise yourself instead of looking for your ball!

When I'm going to find my ball I'll walk along the line I think it's at in case I came up short. So if I was about 5m into the rough, I'll walk parallel to the fairway from at least 20m back to where I think it is in case I came up short. And if I walked on it I would certainly consider that to be penalty free. In fairness, I can see how you're thinking. If I was to start the 3 minutes I'd start it from after I walk past where I expected my ball to be, so when I realised I'm looking for a ball as opposed to walking to my ball that's not visible yet. But that just strikes me as twisting the rule to penalise yourself. It's certainly not the intention of the rule that you'd get a penalty for that.

Oddly if I was not paying attention walking along the fairway and kicked the ball I'd consider that a penalty. It's kind of the same thing but really it's not.

I wouldn’t say looking for a reason to penalise, more wanting to be sure I wasn’t in breach of a rule. But I take your point, there’s a difference between kicking the ball when not paying attention and walking to where you think an errant shot might be. Plus I think context comes into it, the guts of 200 yards away, early morning low sun glistening on the moisture - maybe I was a bit over zealous.

Thanks for the replies guys, nice to get different perspectives.

GreeBo · 01-09-2020 10:22am

prawnsambo wrote: »

I referred to the rule above. If you step on your ball while searching for it and as a result embed it in the ground, you don't get the normal embedded ball relief.

How is it not moving the ball?
Moving is defined as the ball coming to rest in a new location, unless it was embedded before, standing on it has moved it and so it must be replaced.

16.3 just says you dont get relief under this rule, you do still however get "relief" due to accidentally moving your own ball. (relief consisting of replacing your ball as near as possible to where it was before you stepped on it)

prawnsambo · 01-09-2020 11:22am

GreeBo wrote: »

How is it not moving the ball?
Moving is defined as the ball coming to rest in a new location, unless it was embedded before, standing on it has moved it and so it must be replaced.

16.3 just says you dont get relief under this rule, you do still however get "relief" due to accidentally moving your own ball. (relief consisting of replacing your ball as near as possible to where it was before you stepped on it)

Which would mean putting it back in the hole that was made by it being stepped on. Are you suggesting that you can repair the dent and replace the ball on the repaired ground?

GreeBo · 01-09-2020 11:34am

prawnsambo wrote: »

Which would mean putting it back in the hole that was made by it being stepped on. Are you suggesting that you can repair the dent and replace the ball on the repaired ground?

Nope, "as near as possible".

prawnsambo · 01-09-2020 12:15pm

GreeBo wrote: »

Nope, "as near as possible".

Does that not only apply if the original spot is not readily identifiable? This is what the rule says:

There is no penalty if the player’s ball is accidentally moved by the player, opponent or anyone else while trying to find or identify it.
If this happens, the ball must be replaced on its original spot (which if not known must be estimated)

Also this might help clarify:

If the ball was covered by sand, the original lie must be re-created and the ball must be replaced in that lie. But the player may leave a small part of the ball visible when doing so.

GreeBo · 01-09-2020 1:45pm

prawnsambo wrote: »

Does that not only apply if the original spot is not readily identifiable? This is what the rule says:

Also this might help clarify:

I think 14.2.d covers it.

d
Where to Replace Ball When Original Lie Altered
If the lie of a lifted or moved ball that must be replaced is altered, the player must replace the ball in this way:

(1) Ball in Sand. When the ball was in sand, whether in a bunker or anywhere else on the course:

In replacing the ball on its original spot (which if not known must be estimated) (see Rule 14.2c), the player must re-create the original lie as much as possible.
In re-creating the lie, the player may leave a small part of the ball visible if the ball had been covered by sand.
If the player fails to re-create the lie in breach of this Rule, the player has played from the wrong place.

(2) Ball Anywhere Except in Sand. When the ball was anywhere except in sand, the player must replace the ball by placing it on the nearest spot with a lie most similar to the original lie that is:

Within one club-length from its original spot (which if not known must be estimated) (see Rule 14.2c),
Not nearer the hole, and
In the same area of the course as that spot.
If the player knows that the original lie was altered but does not know what the lie was, the player must estimate the original lie and replace the ball under (1) or (2).

prawnsambo · 01-09-2020 1:56pm

GreeBo wrote: »

I think 14.2.d covers it.

That rule is not for a ball that was accidentally moved while looking for it:

Purpose: Rule 14 covers when and how the player may mark the spot of a ball at rest and lift and clean the ball and how to put a ball back into play so that the ball is played from the right place.
When a lifted or moved ball is to be replaced, the same ball must be set down on its original spot.

When taking free relief or penalty relief, a substituted ball or the original ball must be dropped in a particular relief area.

GreeBo · 01-09-2020 1:59pm

prawnsambo wrote: »

That rule is not for a ball that was accidentally moved while looking for it:

14.2
Replacing Ball on Spot
This Rule applies whenever a ball is lifted or moved and a Rule requires it to be replaced on a spot.

If you moved your ball you are required to put it back, hence you have lifted it!

Your first bullet point also covers it, "moved ball is to be replaced"

prawnsambo · 01-09-2020 2:10pm

GreeBo wrote: »

14.2
Replacing Ball on Spot
This Rule applies whenever a ball is lifted or moved and a Rule requires it to be replaced on a spot.

If you moved your ball you are required to put it back, hence you have lifted it!

Your first bullet point also covers it, "moved ball is to be replaced"

It's not my first bullet point, it's the R&A's.

But if you're going to rely on that rule, then you'd probably be back where we started because:

"The ball must be replaced on its original spot"

and

"The “spot” of the ball includes its vertical location relative to the ground."

So if it was in a hole, it goes back in the hole.

GreeBo · 01-09-2020 2:15pm

prawnsambo wrote: »

It's not my first bullet point, it's the R&A's.

But if you're going to rely on that rule, then you'd probably be back where we started because:

"The ball must be replaced on its original spot"

and

"The “spot” of the ball includes its vertical location relative to the ground."

So if it was in a hole, it goes back in the hole.

Erm yeah, the first bullet in *your* post?

Ah, but it wasn't "in a hole", it was moved into a hole.
Anyway, 14.2 clearly says how you replace a ball that has been moved or lifted and what you do if you cant replace it exactly back where it was.

Including the vertical position of the ball relative to the ground just enforces the fact that it was moved by being stood on, and so it needs to be lifted and replaced according to rule 14.2 and since its not in a bunker, sub-section section d.

Your referenced rule is superseded because the original lie has been altered by standing on it, which is the purpose of 14.2

prawnsambo · 01-09-2020 2:31pm

GreeBo wrote: »

Erm yeah, the first bullet in *your* post?

Ah, but it wasn't "in a hole", it was moved into a hole.
Anyway, 14.2 clearly says how you replace a ball that has been moved or lifted and what you do if you cant replace it exactly back where it was.

Including the vertical position of the ball relative to the ground just enforces the fact that it was moved by being stood on, and so it needs to be lifted and replaced according to rule 14.2 and since its not in a bunker, sub-section section d.

Your referenced rule is superseded because the original lie has been altered by standing on it, which is the purpose of 14.2

So to put the ball back exactly where it was, you're saying that you have to repair the dent. You can't place it anywhere else because you actually can identify where it was. The rule only allows you replace elsewhere if the original spot can't be identified exactly. In this case we can, because there's a dent there and the ball is sitting in it. So back we go to Rule 16.3 and no embedded relief if you step on your ball while looking for it.

GreeBo · 01-09-2020 3:11pm

prawnsambo wrote: »

So to put the ball back exactly where it was, you're saying that you have to repair the dent. You can't place it anywhere else because you actually can identify where it was. The rule only allows you replace elsewhere if the original spot can't be identified exactly. In this case we can, because there's a dent there and the ball is sitting in it. So back we go to Rule 16.3 and no embedded relief if you step on your ball while looking for it.

Nope, I'm saying that you can't put it back exactly where it was since those conditions no longer exist.

14.2 is the specific rule for this scenario, the spot is known but the conditions are different.

You are missing the point that the ball didn't come to rest embedded, it was moved there. You can't recreate those conditions, so you place the ball in a position that's as close to the original conditions as possible.

Again:
"14.2 Where to Replace Ball When Original Lie Altered:"

"d) The player must replace the ball by placing it on the nearest spot with a lie most similar to the original lie"

You yourself said that the original position includes the vertical dimension, so if the ground has dropped you cant identify the original position from a vertical dimension.

Your argument seems to be that this means you suddenly dont have to replace the ball, even though you moved it...this makes no sense!

prawnsambo · 01-09-2020 8:06pm

GreeBo wrote: »

Nope, I'm saying that you can't put it back exactly where it was since those conditions no longer exist.

14.2 is the specific rule for this scenario, the spot is known but the conditions are different.

You are missing the point that the ball didn't come to rest embedded, it was moved there. You can't recreate those conditions, so you place the ball in a position that's as close to the original conditions as possible.

Again:
"14.2 Where to Replace Ball When Original Lie Altered:"

"d) The player must replace the ball by placing it on the nearest spot with a lie most similar to the original lie"

You yourself said that the original position includes the vertical dimension, so if the ground has dropped you cant identify the original position from a vertical dimension.

Your argument seems to be that this means you suddenly dont have to replace the ball, even though you moved it...this makes no sense!

Well personally, if I was in that situation, I think I'd go with the rule that explicitly describes the situation and the action to be taken rather than rooting around the rule book for something that in the right light and if you squint a bit, just may give me an advantage. But that's just me, your mileage may vary.

DuckSlice · 02-09-2020 8:44am

If it was me I would go with Rule 7 and put it back to where I thought it was. It says if its moved put it back as per Rule 14.2, in this case 14.2d.
It clearly states in there that if:

(2) Ball Anywhere Except in Sand. When the ball was anywhere except in sand, the player must replace the ball by placing it on the nearest spot with a lie most similar to the original lie that is:

The fact the ball is embedded is irrelevant, what matters is the lie has been altered to an extent it cant be recreated so you must proceed under rule 14.2d

If anyone has a copy of the decisions of the rules it might be in there somewhere.

PARlance · 02-09-2020 8:58am

I'm not sure how you can know that the ball wasn't embedded before the trolley went over it.

DuckSlice · 02-09-2020 9:03am

PARlance wrote: »

I'm not sure how you can know that the ball wasn't embedded before the trolley went over it.

That's a good point. And if you think it was embedded before hand then you still get relief, but I don't know how you would be able to come to this conclusion if you didn't even see the ball before driving the trolley over it.

PARlance · 02-09-2020 9:08am

etxp wrote: »

That's a good point. And if you think it was embedded before hand then you still get relief, but I don't know how you would be able to come to this conclusion if you didn't even see the ball before driving the trolley over it.

I think a ball travelling 200 yards is more likely to embed the ball than a trolley going over it tbh. It would take a fair bit of force to embed a static ball...But I don't know the conditions...

But all that aside, if you didn't see the ball before going over it, I don't think you can be certain it wasn't already embedded/embedded a little less etc.

GreeBo · 02-09-2020 9:41am

prawnsambo wrote: »

Well personally, if I was in that situation, I think I'd go with the rule that explicitly describes the situation and the action to be taken rather than rooting around the rule book for something that in the right light and if you squint a bit, just may give me an advantage. But that's just me, your mileage may vary.

LOL seriously, what are you talking about?

14.2.d is specifically for the situation at hand
"ball moved, original lie altered"
It couldn't be more explicitly describing the situation if it tried.

There is zero "squinting" or "rooting around the rules" for an advantage and frankly I don't appreciate you syaing that there is.

You are saying its rule 16.3, I'm showing you rule 14.2, Not sure how 14.2 is somehow hidden yet 16.3 is hunky dory

You are 100% wrong here, you've tried multiple times to show your interpretation is correct and been easy defeated simply because there is an explicit rule for the exact scenario that I have showed you, multiple times.

MOD SNIP

GreeBo · 02-09-2020 9:56am

etxp wrote: »

That's a good point. And if you think it was embedded before hand then you still get relief,

Depends on the local rules, some exclude non closely mown areas.

Rule query / opinion

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