230V domestic sockets in EVs - the next big thing?

the_amazing_raisin · 12-08-2020 4:02pm #1

I was watching some reviews of the Honda E and one of the most interesting features I saw was that it has a 230V socket in the dash, rated up to 1500W

I also say in Bjorn Nyland's review of the XPeng P7 that it has an adapter that plugs into the Type 2 charging port allowing you to plug in a domestic plug and draw power from the car.

Apparently the Cybertruck will also have a similar feature.

So I'm wondering if domestic sockets are going to become a standard feature on EVs in future. Personally I think it'd be a great idea, I could think of a whole range of uses including:

Quick charging tablets, laptops, phones - Often you'll only be able to slow charge through the built in USB but you could use a quick charger through the 230V plug
Camping - you could bring a fridge/cooler for your food and even a microwave or baby food warmer
Road trip - Electric cooler or fridge to keep your drinks and snacks cool
Travelling workers - Could bring meals from home and heat them up, saving money on takeaway meals (and healthier too)
Tradesmen - If there's no power on site you often need a generator, but a power outlet in an electric van could supply your tools. If there was a 110V option as well then you wouldn't need a transformer
Medical equipment - Could save battery by plugging in during a trip
Mobility scooters, etc - Could plug in while driving to have a full charge when you arrive

So what do you folks think, next big thing or a waste of money? If it were an extra for say €500 or €1000 would you pay it? How much power would suit you, ideally 2300W same as most domestic sockets but would you accept less?

Oh and before anyone says "but what about your battery???" I'd like to point out that running a 1000W microwave for 8 hours without stop would drain a Leaf 24kWh battery by around 33%, and a Tesla Model 3 SR+ by around 16%, so in all likelihood the resulting range loss from the AC outlet would be minimal and could be easily factored into trip planning

graememk · 12-08-2020 4:14pm

I think unkel has done that already in his model S. In the frunk.

Also the some versions of the e Niro in Europe have a 230V inverter,

Most of these inverters run from the 12v battery and not directly from the hv DC battery.

E Niro also has a utility mode, (car is "on" but can't drive), and that would keep the 12v topped up.

edit: quick addition
I think it would be a great idea

Quick charging tablets, laptops, phones - Often you'll only be able to slow charge through the built in USB but you could use a quick charger through the 230V plug

You can get 12v variants of usb C PD chargers, and qualcomm quickcharge now, and would be better than running it through the inverter

Medical equipment - Could save battery by plugging in during a trip
Mobility scooters, etc - Could plug in while driving to have a full charge when you arrive

These can be easily charged through 12v systems now too.

Camping - you could bring a fridge/cooler for your food and even a microwave or baby food warmer
Road trip - Electric cooler or fridge to keep your drinks and snacks cool
Travelling workers - Could bring meals from home and heat them up, saving money on takeaway meals (and healthier too)
Tradesmen - If there's no power on site you often need a generator, but a power outlet in an electric van could supply your tools. If there was a 110V option as well then you wouldn't need a transformer

Yeah all great reasons, any new tool we've bought lately has been battery powered, but keeping them charged is an issue. Could have the chargers mounted in the back keeping all your portables fully charged.

Another would be an emergeny supply for the house if you have a power outage, granted you'll only run the essentials off it but still worthwhile.

to be able to pull 2kw from it though would need an inverter that runs directly from the HV battery instead of the 12v!

the_amazing_raisin · 12-08-2020 4:23pm

graememk wrote: »

I think unkel has done that already in his model S. In the frunk.

Also the some versions of the e Niro in Europe have a 230V inverter,

Most of these inverters run from the 12v battery and not directly from the hv DC battery.

E Niro also has a utility mode, (car is "on" but can't drive), and that would keep the 12v topped up.

There's definitely a few after market options, 12V to 230V inverters are pretty common, although higher power ones get pretty expensive

Personally I'd like something integrated as it'll interface with the car's systems better, for example turning on the internal DC-DC to stop the 12V battery draining

For cars with AC motors this should be easier as they're already inverting 400V DC to AC, so only a 400V to 230V transformer is needed

slave1 · 12-08-2020 4:35pm

All EV owners should have a good 12V inverter should the electricity go in the house, I've a 1000W to run TV, some lights, boiler pump etc but thankfully never used it yet.
Only time I use it is to charge the golf battery between rounds which I can do via the cigarette socket

Gumbo · 12-08-2020 4:37pm

This V2G has been around a while now.
(Vehicle to Grid)

Unkel has done it with an invertor and another poster was able to get power from his Leaf.

slave1 · 12-08-2020 4:38pm

There is a CHAdeMO to grid adapter our there, seen if before but CBA looking for it now.
One of the few advantages of CHAdeMO (over CCS) is that it can both send and receive electricity

slave1 · 12-08-2020 4:40pm

Further reading from Nissan

https://www.nissan-global.com/EN/TECHNOLOGY/OVERVIEW/vehicle_to_home.html

the_amazing_raisin · 12-08-2020 4:48pm

Gumbo wrote: »

This V2G has been around a while now.
(Vehicle to Grid)

Unkel has done it with an invertor and another poster was able to get power from his Leaf.

V2G is a different kettle of fish IMHO since you're relying on the charger to do the DC to AC conversion and it's generally much higher power and more expensive than what most 12v inverters would supply

Superfoods · 12-08-2020 4:49pm

What do you need a plug for? making some toast on way into work?

the_amazing_raisin · 12-08-2020 4:54pm

slave1 wrote: »

All EV owners should have a good 12V inverter should the electricity go in the house, I've a 1000W to run TV, some lights, boiler pump etc but thankfully never used it yet.
Only time I use it is to charge the golf battery between rounds which I can do via the cigarette socket

I like your list of priorities there, the food in the freezer may be going rotten but at least you can watch the golf in a power outage ;-)

Seriously though, I absolutely agree that being able to use an EV for backup power is extremely useful, especially in my case where literally all my heating and cooking is electric.

With a 1500W inverter I'd be able to power the fridge freezer and microwave and maybe an electric heater (since it'll of course be winter when the power goes)

the_amazing_raisin · 12-08-2020 5:05pm

Superfoods wrote: »

What do you need a plug for? making some toast on way into work?

That'd be nice on those mornings I wake up late and have to skip breakfast

Also you know, all those reasons I thought of above :-P

Miscreant · 12-08-2020 5:31pm

I think building inverters and sockets like this in to cars is a great idea but how often would they get used?

I have to ask another question though: How often does the power go out for some people? It sounds like it is a weekly occurrence by the way people are talking.

I can't remember the last time we had a power cut so bad that I was worried the food was going to spoil in the fridge (they are an insulated appliance and keep food cool for quite some time without power). For that, you're talking a sustained 24 hour power outage and for the life of me, I can't think of a time that has happened outside of mass flooding or storm damage. Chances are, if you lose power in a flood, your car is goosed anyway and it if is storm damage, your car may also be inoperable. If you are that worried about power cuts in Ireland, it may be time to buy a small generator on the off chance you need to use it once every 3 or 4 years.

I think V2G is a fantastic idea though as it will normally smooth out the demand on the power grid.

A lot of new cars are now coming with USB-C connectors inside that can deliver over 2amps to a mobile device which is more than enough to run a tablet or phone. Otherwise, if you need a small fridge for a picnic, you can always buy one of the many 12v units that are out there and use the accessory (formerly cigarette lighter) socket in the car for it.

unkel · 12-08-2020 5:47pm

One of the first things I did when I got the car was to install a 600W max continuous AC power source in the frunk. Proved handy when we had a serious power cut, I just ran a 25m extension cable from the car to my home office in the attic, so I could keep working on my PC

Black_Knight · 12-08-2020 6:08pm

unkel wrote: »

One of the first things I did when I got the car was to install a 600W max continuous AC power source in the frunk. Proved handy when we had a serious power cut, I just ran a 25m extension cable from the car to my home office in the attic, so I could keep working on my PC

Am I the only one who suspects unkel caused said power cut?

the_amazing_raisin · 12-08-2020 6:15pm

Miscreant wrote: »

I have to ask another question though: How often does the power go out for some people? It sounds like it is a weekly occurrence by the way people are talking.

Well we've had 3 in 3.5 years, and as I said the house is basically useless without power.

The car was fine in each instance so it could have been used for backup power. A 1500W inverter costs under €200 so I'd consider it a pretty good investment and a lot cheaper than a generator

the_amazing_raisin · 12-08-2020 6:21pm

Black_Knight wrote: »

Am I the only one who suspects unkel caused said power cut?

Definitely, he was probably pushing coins into the ESB pillar until one of them caused a short :-)

unkel · 12-08-2020 7:54pm

I also have a fairly substantial grid attached power wall system, which provides 3kW when the grid is down (provided I have juice in the batteries). I could also charge this power wall from the car. Would keep the house going for at least a week. Prepping FTW :pac:

scwazrh · 12-08-2020 9:46pm

My big dirty 3.2 Ltr diesel pick up has a standard socket in the rear from factory.It comes in handy when camping or needing a quick charge for the laptop.

You EV boys need to get with the times ..

unkel · 12-08-2020 10:44pm

What power does that socket provide? Is it perchance a US pick up truck? Having AC power in them is pretty standard over there and has been for quite some time. In European or Asian cars / vans / trucks not so much, so people struggle with batteries and inverters if they want to use power tools.

The great thing of course in an EV is that you can use heavy duty equipment for a long time without having to worry about depleting the battery. In a diesel truck, your battery will be empty and could be damaged beyond recovery within an hour, possibly in no more than a few minutes. Unless of course you switch on that stinky engine.

scwazrh · 12-08-2020 10:55pm

unkel wrote: »

What power does that socket provide? Is it perchance a US pick up truck? Having AC power in them is pretty standard over there and has been for quite some time. In European or Asian cars / vans / trucks not so much, so people struggle with batteries and inverters if they want to use power tools.

The great thing of course in an EV is that you can use heavy duty equipment for a long time without having to worry about depleting the battery. In a diesel truck, your battery will be empty and could be damaged beyond recovery within an hour, possibly in no more than a few minutes. Unless of course you switch on that stinky engine.

It’s a ford ranger , euro market pick up, I believe the 2013 models onwards all come with standard plug.

I always run the engine while using that power supply , not sure if I need to or not .

It will be my last dirty diesel until the Cybertruck is released

Lumen · 12-08-2020 11:03pm

I've an inverter and used it twice in 15 years. It was cool to be the only house with power in the neighborhood but TBH life is fine for a few hours without power.

unkel · 12-08-2020 11:20pm

scwazrh wrote: »

It will be my last dirty diesel until the Cybertruck is released

I read recently that the Cybertruck will not come to Europe. At least not in its current form.

the_amazing_raisin · 13-08-2020 11:07am

unkel wrote: »

I read recently that the Cybertruck will not come to Europe. At least not in its current form.

Yeah I heard there's going to be a smaller version for Europe.

To be fair, the US version probably wouldn't fit on half the roads here, could you imagine encountering that on some narrow lane in Mayo :eek:

the_amazing_raisin · 13-08-2020 11:11am

scwazrh wrote: »

It’s a ford ranger , euro market pick up, I believe the 2013 models onwards all come with standard plug.

I always run the engine while using that power supply , not sure if I need to or not .

It will be my last dirty diesel until the Cybertruck is released

Glad to see you've come into the light of the EV world

To be fair, running the engine will protect the battery but lightly loading a diesel engine for a long time isn't great for it in the long run.

MJohnston · 13-08-2020 12:00pm

This kind of stuff is why I'm really looking forward to seeing future campervans derived from next-gen electric vans.

Right now in our ICE campervan, you have to buy low wattage kettles and toasters or you're going to overload something. You need gas compressor fridges. And all the solar panels you can add don't really do much other than power a few lights.

Gimme a larger ID.Buzz with a high roof, designed with the utility of the Grand California. I'd sell my house and live in it.

unkel · 13-08-2020 12:10pm

You're proving my point there, MJohnston. Unless you leave a combustion engine running, it's a struggle.

MJohnston wrote: »

And all the solar panels you can add don't really do much other than power a few lights.

Either your camper van is too small, or you are doing it wrong. Or both

A large RV with 1000-1500wp of PV (and a matching battery pack) will generate plenty for all your needs, incl fridge, kettle, microwave, PCs, large LCD TV, etc. 24/7 for pretty much all of the season. And no, one or two flexible 100wp panels won't cut the mustard...

MJohnston · 13-08-2020 12:35pm

unkel wrote: »

You're proving my point there, MJohnston. Unless you leave a combustion engine running, it's a struggle.

Either your camper van is too small, or you are doing it wrong. Or both

A large RV with 1000-1500wp of PV (and a matching battery pack) will generate plenty for all your needs, incl fridge, kettle, microwave, PCs, large LCD TV, etc. 24/7 for pretty much all of the season. And no, one or two flexible 100wp panels won't cut the mustard...

I mean I would never want all that stuff with me in the campervan anyway! But it'd all be so much more simple with an EV campervan.

the_amazing_raisin · 13-08-2020 12:56pm

MJohnston wrote: »

This kind of stuff is why I'm really looking forward to seeing future campervans derived from next-gen electric vans.

Right now in our ICE campervan, you have to buy low wattage kettles and toasters or you're going to overload something. You need gas compressor fridges. And all the solar panels you can add don't really do much other than power a few lights.

Gimme a larger ID.Buzz with a high roof, designed with the utility of the Grand California. I'd sell my house and live in it.

YES!!!!

Just hurry up and take my money VW, just take it!!!

Seriously, I'm really looking forward to the ID Buzz. I probably won't go full campervan but I'd definitely outfit it with a couple of 230V sockets and maybe a 1500W inverter for camping trips

On a side note, I wonder how much power the ID.3 DC-DC will support. I'm guessing it's the same as the e-Golf for part reuse which seems to support around 1800W (info online is spotty)

Should be able to hook up a 1000W inverter with no problem if that's the case, might even be able to stretch to 1500W

unkel · 13-08-2020 1:33pm

That's exactly why it is so easy to implement a system like Honda did with the 1500W AC socket. As long as that wattage is below that of the DC-DC converter, it is simple and relatively cheap (cost of a good AC inverter and some cabling really)

Most EVs would have at least a 1000W DC-DC. Typically a good bit more. My car has a 2500W. The only reason I am using a 600W AC inverter is that I base it off the jump posts on my car that are connected to the 12V aux battery via a circuit fused by a 50A fuse (with matching thickness cable). If I needed more, I'd connect directly to the 12V aux with a 200A fuse, very thick cables and a 2000W AC inverter

230V domestic sockets in EVs - the next big thing?

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