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Social welfare raids

  • 29-07-2020 9:03am
    #1
    gral6
    Registered Users Posts: 656 ✭✭✭


    Do you have to show your passport to social welfare lads accompanied by Garda in Dublin airport?
    Do you have a legal right to refuse?


«13

Comments

  • #2
    Limpy
    Users Awaiting Email Confirmation Posts: 1,105 ✭✭✭Limpy


    Tell them the wife has it and she's in the toilet. Keep them hanging like fools. Also don't sit on the departures gate going to a red country, they will be checking these. Sit for instance near a gate going to a green list country till the last min. Again if you get stopped say the wife has them or vise versa.


  • #3
    davetherave
    Registered Users Posts: 3,359 ✭✭✭davetherave


    Yes.

    Under section 250 of the Social Protection Consolidation Act 2005 as Amended by section 17 of Social Welfare and Pensions Act 2012

    Where, while attending at any port for the purposes of ensuring compliance with this Act, a social welfare inspector has reasonable grounds to believe that there has been a contravention of this Act, and is accompanied by (i) a member of the Garda Síochána, (ii) an officer of Customs and Excise, or (iii) an immigration officer,

    the social welfare inspector concerned may, on production of his or her certificate of appointment—

    (i) question and make enquiries of a person who is a passenger at the port and is preparing to embark, or is embarking, from, or has landed in, the State in relation to any matter that concerns compliance with this Act, and

    (ii) request such person to produce to that inspector any documents or other information as that inspector may reasonably require for the purposes of establishing the identity, and, where appropriate, the habitual residence, of that person.


  • #4
    bobmalooka
    Registered Users Posts: 1,521 ✭✭✭bobmalooka


    davetherave wrote: »
    Yes.

    Under section 250 of the Social Protection Consolidation Act 2005 as Amended by section 17 of Social Welfare and Pensions Act 2012

    Where, while attending at any port for the purposes of ensuring compliance with this Act, a social welfare inspector has reasonable grounds to believe that there has been a contravention of this Act, and is accompanied by (i) a member of the Garda Síochána, (ii) an officer of Customs and Excise, or (iii) an immigration officer,

    the social welfare inspector concerned may, on production of his or her certificate of appointment—

    (i) question and make enquiries of a person who is a passenger at the port and is preparing to embark, or is embarking, from, or has landed in, the State in relation to any matter that concerns compliance with this Act, and

    (ii) request such person to produce to that inspector any documents or other information as that inspector may reasonably require for the purposes of establishing the identity, and, where appropriate, the habitual residence, of that person.

    Does anyone know what would be considered reasonable grounds for believing that there has been a contravention of the act?


  • #5
    Atlantic Dawn
    Registered Users Posts: 81,016 ✭✭✭✭Atlantic Dawn
    M


    davetherave wrote: »
    Yes.

    Under section 250 of the Social Protection Consolidation Act 2005 as Amended by section 17 of Social Welfare and Pensions Act 2012

    Where, while attending at any port for the purposes of ensuring compliance with this Act, a social welfare inspector has reasonable grounds to believe that there has been a contravention of this Act, and is accompanied by (i) a member of the Garda Síochána, (ii) an officer of Customs and Excise, or (iii) an immigration officer,

    the social welfare inspector concerned may, on production of his or her certificate of appointment—

    (i) question and make enquiries of a person who is a passenger at the port and is preparing to embark, or is embarking, from, or has landed in, the State in relation to any matter that concerns compliance with this Act, and

    (ii) request such person to produce to that inspector any documents or other information as that inspector may reasonably require for the purposes of establishing the identity, and, where appropriate, the habitual residence, of that person.

    How would they have reason to suspect someone in an airport? It's not like they have stopped a people carrier on a primary route being driven by a man wearing workwear and they suspect him of social welfare fraud.


  • #6
    Limpy
    Users Awaiting Email Confirmation Posts: 1,105 ✭✭✭Limpy


    davetherave wrote: »
    Yes.

    Under section 250 of the Social Protection Consolidation Act 2005 as Amended by section 17 of Social Welfare and Pensions Act 2012

    Where, while attending at any port for the purposes of ensuring compliance with this Act, a social welfare inspector has reasonable grounds to believe that there has been a contravention of this Act, and is accompanied by (i) a member of the Garda Síochána, (ii) an officer of Customs and Excise, or (iii) an immigration officer,

    the social welfare inspector concerned may, on production of his or her certificate of appointment—

    (i) question and make enquiries of a person who is a passenger at the port and is preparing to embark, or is embarking, from, or has landed in, the State in relation to any matter that concerns compliance with this Act, and

    (ii) request such person to produce to that inspector any documents or other information as that inspector may reasonably require for the purposes of establishing the identity, and, where appropriate, the habitual residence, of that person.


    https://www.rte.ie/news/2020/0728/1156094-flac-pup-covid-payment/

    No clear legal basis.


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  • #7
    Eric Cartman
    Registered Users Posts: 26,283 ✭✭✭✭Eric Cartman


    Limpy wrote: »
    Tell them the wife has it and she's in the toilet. Keep them hanging like fools. Also don't sit on the departures gate going to a red country, they will be checking these. Sit for instance near a gate going to a green list country till the last min. Again if you get stopped say the wife has them or vise versa.

    you are advising people to commit a crime.


  • #8
    Limpy
    Users Awaiting Email Confirmation Posts: 1,105 ✭✭✭Limpy


    Eric Cartman wrote: »
    you are advising people to commit a crime.

    Quote me the law where it shows I did. Or stop talking rope.


  • #9
    davetherave
    Registered Users Posts: 3,359 ✭✭✭davetherave


    Limpy wrote: »
    https://www.rte.ie/news/2020/0728/1156094-flac-pup-covid-payment/

    No clear legal basis.
    What has that link got to do with the price of turnips?

    FLAC say there is no clear legal basis for stopping PUP payments.

    What do they say about the validity a paragraph of an act that made it's way through the Dail, the Seanad and was signed into law by the President?


    OP asked "Do you have to show your passport to social welfare lads accompanied by Garda in Dublin airport?"

    I gave a response to that quoting legislation to the affirmative. The legality of suspending payments has nothing to do with my reply.


  • #10
    Limpy
    Users Awaiting Email Confirmation Posts: 1,105 ✭✭✭Limpy


    davetherave wrote: »
    What has that link got to do with the price of turnips?

    FLAC say there is no clear legal basis for stopping PUP payments.

    What do they say about the validity a paragraph of an act that made it's way through the Dail, the Seanad and was signed into law by the President?

    OP asked "Do you have to show your passport to social welfare lads accompanied by Garda in Dublin airport?"

    I gave a response to that quoting legislation to the affirmative. The legality of suspending payments has nothing to do with my reply.

    The OP wasn't committing a crime so the Gardai would be unlawfully questioning him.


  • #11
    Hello 2D Person Below
    Registered Users Posts: 13,755 ✭✭✭✭Hello 2D Person Below


    'Reasonable grounds' is the key.

    So unless they've provided such, you're under no obligation to provide them with anything. Ignore them.


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  • #12
    Limpy
    Users Awaiting Email Confirmation Posts: 1,105 ✭✭✭Limpy


    Hello 2D Person Below wrote: »
    'Reasonable grounds' is the key.

    So unless they've provided such, you're under no obligation to provide them with anything. Ignore them.

    Yes they would have to say OP i believe your going to Spain and ahem getting €203 euro from the state unlawfully, but were not sure if your even breaking the law.


  • #13
    AUDI20
    Registered Users Posts: 286 ✭✭AUDI20


    Limpy wrote: »
    The OP wasn't committing a crime so the Gardai would be unlawfully questioning him.

    Thats not true, a Gardai have the power to question a member of the public anytime.


  • #14
    Insidious
    Registered Users Posts: 81 ✭✭Insidious


    Maybe I'm wrong but you don't get these payments from the tax paying workers to sit on a beach sipping beer in a foreign country... You get them to help tide you over while you find work... You can't find work if you're not here or if you are in quarantine for two weeks after you come home.
    People who have nothing to hide shouldn't mind getting asked a few questions by officials at the airport..
    They are just part of a system that's trying to keep covid numbers low and prevent unnecessary travel bringing on a 2nd lockdown...


  • #15
    Boxcar_Willie
    Registered Users Posts: 425 ✭✭Boxcar_Willie


    AUDI20 wrote: »
    Thats not true, a Gardai have the power to question a member of the public anytime.

    Yes , but do they have the right to pass immigration details to the Dept. of Social Protection ? Is there a breach of data protection here ?

    From what I've seen on the news and read the Gardaí conducting these inspections specifically said that it was a " Passport Check " or " Immigration Check ".


  • #16
    Atlantic Dawn
    Registered Users Posts: 81,016 ✭✭✭✭Atlantic Dawn
    M


    Insidious wrote: »
    Maybe I'm wrong but you don't get these payments from the tax paying workers to sit on a beach sipping beer in a foreign country... You get them to help tide you over while you find work... You can't find work if you're not here or if you are in quarantine for two weeks after you come home.
    People who have nothing to hide shouldn't mind getting asked a few questions by officials at the airport..
    They are just part of a system that's trying to keep covid numbers low and prevent unnecessary travel bringing on a 2nd lockdown...

    But are people wearing PUP badges at the airport to identify them for questioning? They are asking people with no possible way prior to asking them to know whether they are CEO of Bank Of Ireland or someone on the PUP. How is 'a social welfare inspector has reasonable grounds to believe that there has been a contravention of this Act' determined at the airport?


  • #17
    MickeyLeari
    Closed Accounts Posts: 917 ✭✭✭MickeyLeari


    We live in the EU. Surely seeking employment in another EU country qualifies under the Irish legislation? If one was unsuccessful then that is fine but if there was evidence of an interview in another EU MS (or perhaps even the U.K.) it would be difficult for the State to stop the payment?


  • #18
    antimatterx
    Registered Users Posts: 2,645 ✭✭✭antimatterx


    You're in the Airport. Why wouldn't you have to show your passport?


  • #19
    Limpy
    Users Awaiting Email Confirmation Posts: 1,105 ✭✭✭Limpy


    antimatterx wrote: »
    You're in the Airport. Why wouldn't you have to show your passport?

    To whom should you show your passport to you mean.


  • #20
    MickeyLeari
    Closed Accounts Posts: 917 ✭✭✭MickeyLeari


    antimatterx wrote: »
    You're in the Airport. Why wouldn't you have to show your passport?

    It is required by the airlines for various reasons. It is not required legally for travel to the UK. It is not legally required on arrival from the UK. A passport or a eco gnoses national ID is required when arriving from EU countries. A passport and a vis is appropriate is required on arrival from outside the EU.


  • #21
    ChelseaRentBoy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 474 ✭✭ChelseaRentBoy


    AUDI20 wrote: »
    Thats not true, a Gardai have the power to question a member of the public anytime.

    And has a citizen you have the right to not cooperate with them. Just tell them you aren't engaging with them and let them arrest you if they see fit. They won't because they haven't a leg to stand on legally.


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  • #22
    ChelseaRentBoy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 474 ✭✭ChelseaRentBoy


    MickeyLeari wrote: »
    We live in the EU. Surely seeking employment in another EU country qualifies under the Irish legislation? If one was unsuccessful then that is fine but if there was evidence of an interview in another EU MS (or perhaps even the U.K.) it would be difficult for the State to stop the payment?

    Plenty of people work remotely whilst travelling now. I'm on holiday at present and had several zoom calls over the last week related to my business. The government must think everyone works in a factory or lays blocks on a site.


  • #23
    Limpy
    Users Awaiting Email Confirmation Posts: 1,105 ✭✭✭Limpy


    ChelseaRentBoy wrote: »
    And has a citizen you have the right to not cooperate with them. Just tell them you aren't engaging with them and let them arrest you if they see fit. They won't because they haven't a leg to stand on legally.

    Your also legally allowed to have a lawyer present (for questioning) if the Gardai says he is arresting you (even though he won't be as your not breaking any law's).


  • #24
    antimatterx
    Registered Users Posts: 2,645 ✭✭✭antimatterx


    People in this country just love to be difficult to deal with.


  • #25
    head82
    Registered Users Posts: 276 ✭✭head82


    Heather Humphries just announced PUP recipients WILL be allowed travel to Green List countries and not have their payment stopped.


  • #26
    Fuascailteoir
    Registered Users Posts: 579 ✭✭✭Fuascailteoir


    Boxcar_Willie wrote: »
    Yes , but do they have the right to pass immigration details to the Dept. of Social Protection ? Is there a breach of data protection here ?

    From what I've seen on the news and read the Gardaí conducting these inspections specifically said that it was a " Passport Check " or " Immigration Check ".

    Could be facing a load of GDPR cases with 10k payouts


  • #27
    Oranage2
    Registered Users Posts: 11,131 ✭✭✭✭Oranage2


    What's the rules about speaking Irish to them?


  • #28
    cee_jay
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 7,920 Mod ✭✭✭✭cee_jay


    Boxcar_Willie wrote: »
    Yes , but do they have the right to pass immigration details to the Dept. of Social Protection ? Is there a breach of data protection here ?

    From what I've seen on the news and read the Gardaí conducting these inspections specifically said that it was a " Passport Check " or " Immigration Check ".

    https://www.gov.ie/en/organisation-information/534503-privacy-statement/#section-9-sharing-personal-data


  • #29
    ronano
    Registered Users Posts: 3,131 ✭✭✭ronano


    The whole thing has been an utter shambles, beyond whether it's discriminatory or not, it has been a pigs ear of an approach. Unclear, rewriting on the fly to suit previous action and comments, no basis in law and potentially overstepping the mark. I expect nothing less from the current government, ff have been impressively terrible and in quick fashion.


  • #30
    Limpy
    Users Awaiting Email Confirmation Posts: 1,105 ✭✭✭Limpy


    antimatterx wrote: »
    People in this country just love to be difficult to deal with.

    People stand up for the rights of ordinary people. That I am proud of.


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  • #31
    ChelseaRentBoy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 474 ✭✭ChelseaRentBoy


    antimatterx wrote: »
    People in this country just love to be difficult to deal with.

    And i am very thankful for that.


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