New NTA Livery

bk · 26-07-2020 11:56am #1

From the notes of a recent NTA meeting, they say that they are looking at a new yellow and green livery and are in talks with operators about rolling it out!

I'm assuming this is the new livery (or variant of) which is currently seen on the trial hybrid buses.

This would be great, I really like this hybrid bus livery and I'd love to see it rolled out across both DB and GA.

It would solve the issue if DB and GA having different liveries. With lots of yellow, it should pass the needs of disabled users. The subtle two tone green evokes Ireland without being too twee IMO and obviously also evokes the green movement and the move to Hybrid buses. I think it would be a win all round.

It seems the NTA also plan on replacing their bus pole flags with ones with the new yellow and green colour scheme, example seen here:

1180851_d9c69862f0b7897088f7687b7ca0ec91_t.jpg?Expires=1596495491&Signature=LgdH8ootSdc6OdMMn3rmFgiN78cL6rZ08XkGknM6ncznENHJu1yAMSh7BBUerLV5BO8Mkfr0936MKaUG8CyzvuEgRVNEdfiCQkRom922basp115frhVALOcT3wbee9VVk4ft5WKskH8Rn8OiA0X~rGzoBSq4JIWXrOLECHbXorY4Ke8a4WwdZgeCeGuEDWtA~mgX48LiASWarIOAm3kcocHEeEsX2RPbNJu-do9v4PO3Wi0kHMvzSu3FPGwZEt9u8efkaCjcMRcYsZGaEj8GNF0YizIU1t~q9hC9W4lxaTYGu4IJDT-DW~BqyMkdBgb6J1HJIRHHcxNPJhlwDbgTow__&Key-Pair-Id=APKAJS72YROXJYGYDADA

Above taken from here:
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/irishtransport/viewtopic.php?p=111745#p111745

And here is what the potential yellow and green livery looks on the current trial hybrids:

Ireland-hybrid-bus-1.jpg?w=2500&quality=82&strip=all&ssl=1

Ireland-hybrid-bus-1.jpg?w=2500&quality=82&strip=all&ssl=1

Lots more nice pics here:
http://www.dublinbusstuff.com/PhotoWeek/Hybrids.html

Markcheese · 26-07-2020 12:02pm

To what end ? Is it free ? (No) , does it improves passenger journey times ? (No) ,

Peregrine · 26-07-2020 12:24pm

Looks very smart. Makes sense to roll this out now.

Cookie_Monster · 26-07-2020 12:33pm

way better than the hideous colours GAI are currently stuck with. though the darker green is a bit too grey imo

To what end ? Is it free ? (No) , does it improves passenger journey times ? (No) ,

do all buses need to get repainted after a certain amount of time anyway, yes. will this cost any more than normal, no. does consistent branding across all services improve things overall for users, yes.

Brian CivilEng · 26-07-2020 1:53pm

Hopefully it will be an improvement on the current GAI buses, you can really see it is two separate liveries smooshed together.

My only wish is that they had different regional variations on the liveries. Maybe the yellow bit being common but using blue for Dublin, red for Cork, maroon for Galway etc. Green for intercity maybe. Used always be one of those things knowing you were getting close to Dublin when you spotted your first Dublin Bus.

devnull · 26-07-2020 2:15pm

bk wrote: »

From the notes of a recent NTA meeting, they say that they are looking at a new yellow and green livery and are in talks with operators about rolling it out!

I'm assuming this is the new livery (or variant of) which is currently seen on the trial hybrid buses.

This would be great, I really like this hybrid bus livery and I'd love to see it rolled out across both DB and GA.

It would solve the issue if DB and GA having different liveries. With lots of yellow, it should pass the needs of disabled users. The subtle two tone green evokes Ireland without being too twee IMO and obviously also evokes the green movement and the move to Hybrid buses. I think it would be a win all round.

It seems the NTA also plan on replacing their bus pole flags with ones with the new yellow and green colour scheme, example seen here:

It would make a lot of sense for all the operators as part of a single PSO Network to be wearing this. However a number of parties continue to be less supportive of this so this is nothing like a done deal at the moment. However it does seemingly ticks the vast majority of the boxes that we're told need to be ticked that the old one didn't.

From what I have heard, it's still not close to being approved and there are still discussions ongoing with some of the operators who may need to wear it about whether they find it acceptable and if not what they need to happen before it would become acceptable. It's by no means certain that it will be based on the Dublin Bus hybrid livery, since that itself is a variation on a livery which is trademarked by Dublin Bus.

There has been intransigence on the subject of liveries for the last number of years. That is no doubt why that we are still having the discussion today about liveries when the NTA would have wanted it over and done with a while ago. However for this matter to be resolved once and for all, it requires all parties and groups being able to reach an agreement or one having enough of a position of strength to call the shots.

I would think that the switch to yellow and green away from the original NTA colours, breaking their own colour by mode palate is a significant concession on their side. Hopefully this leads to all parties also willing to make concessions in order to achieve a balanced compromise rather than continued intransigence - lets hope that they make better progress than they have in past two years on doing so.

Lord Glentoran · 26-07-2020 2:52pm

devnull wrote: »

It would make a lot of sense for all the operators as part of a single PSO Network to be wearing the same livery. However a number of parties continue to be less supportive of this than others so this is nothing like a done deal at the moment. However it does seemingly ticks the vast majority of the boxes that need to be ticked that the old one didn't and solve the issues that some parties said were the reasons behind their objections.

From what I have heard, it's still not close to being approved and there are still discussions ongoing with some of the operators who may need to wear it about whether they find it acceptable and if not what they need to happen before it would become acceptable.

There has been intransigence on the subject of liveries for the last number of years. That is no doubt why that we are still having the discussion today about liveries when the NTA would have wanted it over and done with a while ago but that requires two parties being able to reach an agreement or one having enough of a position of strength to call the shots.

I would think that the switch to yellow and green away from the original NTA colours, breaking their own colour by mode palate is a significant concession on their side. Hopefully this leads to all parties also willing to make concessions in order to achieve a balanced compromise rather than continued intransigence.

It would however be desirable if the NTA could stick to a livery and logo for more than two years. Public Transport in Ireland has suffered from a plethora of liveries and logos for so long that as a brand it has no focus.

devnull · 26-07-2020 2:56pm

Lord Glentoran wrote: »

It would however be desirable if the NTA could stick to a livery and logo for more than two years. Public Transport in Ireland has suffered from a plethora of liveries and logos for so long that as a brand it has no focus.

I do not believe that the NTA are changing the livery simply for a sake of it.

I think it's more because various issues and objections have been brought up from various groups and parties which means that something new had to be worked on to attempt to resolve these things. Most likely because rolling out the current one as wide as was first envisaged isn't going to happen because of these objections and and issues.

Lord Glentoran · 26-07-2020 2:59pm

devnull wrote: »

I do not believe that the NTA are changing the livery simply for a sake of it.

I think it's more because various issues and objections have been brought up from various groups and parties which means that something new had to be worked on to attempt to resolve these things. Most likely because rolling out the current one as wide as was first envisaged isn't going to happen because of these objections and and issues.

I agree - I've no objection to any new livery once it is stuck to and provides a high quality and consistent level of branding across the whole public transport system.

_Kaiser_ · 26-07-2020 11:20pm

Another livery? After the whole nonsense not that long ago that ended up with the current GAI livery being the best choice?

Wouldn't inspire me to be honest but if they DID go with the hybrid livery above it would be a nice mix of the existing DB one, the classic Irish/CIE green, and a modern stylish look that seems to suit any bus I've seen it on.

Is that hybrid livery not DB owned though? Wasn't that the problem with adopting their standard one last time?

L1011 · 26-07-2020 11:23pm

They've put those poles along at least some of the 139 route; but have managed to put totally the wrong Dublin Bus routes on the stops in Maynooth. 39 variants at 66 stops.

Tiles rather than a printed full sign might have been a better idea for long-term servicabllity, as they are now finding out.

GT89 · 27-07-2020 12:27am

The first thing they should which is more important in my view is make the information at bus stops, on the app and website consistent. There should be a single TFI website with all services and timetables listed be they GAI or DB operated listed as if they are all they were all the one operator like TFL.

All bus stops should have consistent information and timetables having a separate column for GAI services and DB services is quite frankly NOT acceptable even in the UK outside London bus stops look far better than here and far more intergrating. And that's for private operators that are in some cases comoeting against each other as bus stops are maintained by councils not operators or agencies like TfGM in Manchester. Consistent intergrated bus stop information is a need to have for a functioning public transport system.

An intergrated livery is a nice to have. I am not against it but it does not nee dto be on the NTAs list of priorities when there are far more pressing issues. Back in the early 00's we had cityswift, city imp, yellow and blue core livery, blue and cream core livery and not to mention the odd wedding bus or coastal tours in regular service we got by as it was all DB and there here wasn't serious confusion. Likewise in London up until recently each operator had a slightly different take on the traditional red London bus until a few years ago TFL mandated that all London buses be 100% red regardless of operator. They survived and there wasn't much confusion.

Too much emphasis has been put on livery here and more needs to be put on giving proper consistent information to passengers. The NTAs attention to detail has been poor and questions need to be asked about how much they actually know about the day to day operations of public transport rather than tunnel vision.

AngryLips · 27-07-2020 9:54am

devnull wrote: »

From what I have heard, it's still not close to being approved and there are still discussions ongoing with some of the operators who may need to wear it about whether they find it acceptable and if not what they need to happen before it would become acceptable. It's by no means certain that it will be based on the Dublin Bus hybrid livery, since that itself is a variation on a livery which is trademarked by Dublin Bus.

There has been intransigence on the subject of liveries for the last number of years.

I find it very hard to believe that livery requirements aren't a clause in all the recent PSO contracts given that streamlined and consistent public information on public transport was always part of the NTA's MO pretty much from the body's inception. What objection can service providers make?

I think dismissing livery changes aimed at creating consistency as being a waste of money is to overlook the benefits that a new livery can bring. For example, seeing all the GA buses driving around in the distinctive new livery has made me more aware of all the Dublin orbital services that exist and the improved frequencies for those services that came with the GA contract. I had always thought that PT was non-existent in large parts of north county Dublin until you notice that Dublin Airport is a hub for many GA services.

Personally not a fan of the green, whereas the blue and yellow for both DB and GA are very handsome IMO.

GT89 · 27-07-2020 12:42pm

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Another livery? After the whole nonsense not that long ago that ended up with the current GAI livery being the best choice?

Wouldn't inspire me to be honest but if they DID go with the hybrid livery above it would be a nice mix of the existing DB one, the classic Irish/CIE green, and a modern stylish look that seems to suit any bus I've seen it on.

Is that hybrid livery not DB owned though? Wasn't that the problem with adopting their standard one last time?

It will be a different livery than what's on the hybrids from what I gather

GT89 · 27-07-2020 12:48pm

Markcheese wrote: »

To what end ? Is it free ? (No) , does it improves passenger journey times ? (No) ,

DB repaint their buses every couple of years anyway so the cost is not such an issue

.anon. · 27-07-2020 4:52pm

bk wrote: »

And here is what the potential yellow and green livery looks on the current trial hybrids:

I don't know if they've signed off on anything yet, but I've heard that this is what they're going for:

p_haugh · 27-07-2020 4:55pm

.anon. wrote: »

I don't know if they've signed off on anything yet, but I've heard that this is what they're going for:

That actually looks quite good, a lot better than the current setup anyways. Will be a shame of they still relegate the operators logo to a tiny spot on the near side though imo

GT89 · 27-07-2020 5:01pm

Don't like it much myself. The green dosen't stand out to the same extent that yellow does. It should be mostly yellow with a green trim. Something similar to the DB livery that's predominately yellow with green elements. The livery looks like it's for a trial/ experimental rather than something that's permanent. I feel that if that's the livery they actually go for there will be more complaints from the disability advocates I'd actually prefer the livery that's on the GAI and some BE buses than that.

.anon. · 27-07-2020 5:02pm

p_haugh wrote: »

That actually looks quite good, a lot better than the current setup anyways. Will be a shame of they still relegate the operators logo to a tiny spot on the near side though imo

I like it too - a basic design, easy on the eye, no stripey nonsense. An awful lot of yellow at the front though, which will probably show up the dirt on the lower panels.

.anon. · 27-07-2020 5:11pm

GT89 wrote: »

Don't like it much myself. The green dosen't stand out to the same extent that yellow does. It should be mostly yellow with a green trim. Something similar to the DB livery that's predominately yellow with green elements. The livery looks like it's for a trial/ experimental rather than something that's permanent. I feel that if that's the liverynthey actually go for there will be more complaints from the disability advocates I'd actually prefer the livery that's on the GAI and some BE buses than that.

You can't paint everything yellow just because a tiny percentage of the population is visually impaired. I'd have gone for a lot less yellow, tbh - maybe two different shades of green, separated by a very limited amount of yellow (contrasting colours are far more important than splashing a load of yellow on the front anyway). London Buses are all one colour and blind people don't seem to have any trouble negotiating their way around them.

_Kaiser_ · 27-07-2020 5:13pm

I fear we'll get another bodge job from looking at that render, based on what happened last time.

Just stop messing around and adopt the DB Hybrid one above - or something as close as possible if there's legal/ownership issues with that - as the new fleet standard.

GT89 · 27-07-2020 5:13pm

I mean why can't they go for something that's just plain yellow with maybe some green or blue trim. Something like Berlin for example where it actually looks quite smart and makes the buses stand out. It's simple and effective rather than being overly conplicated with branding elements like lines and stripes.

GT89 · 27-07-2020 5:20pm

.anon. wrote: »

You can't paint everything yellow just because a tiny percentage of the population is visually impaired. I'd have gone for a lot less yellow, tbh - maybe two different shades of green, separated by a very limited amount of yellow (contrasting colours are far more important than splashing a load of yellow on the front anyway). London Buses are all one colour and blind people don't seem to have any trouble negotiating their way around them.

Red is deemed a suitable colour for people with visual impairments as it stands maybe not as much as yellow, white is also considered suitable too I believe. Look at Berlin for example where buses are fully yellow. It dosen't look too bad.

https://www.alamy.com/berlin-germany-monday-september-23-2019-public-transportation-city-bus-in-city-of-berlin-image327686673.html

john boye · 27-07-2020 5:31pm

I'd say it's certainly an improvement on the current NTA and DB liveries but it needs a bit of livening up if they go with it. Too much plain green with not much to offset it. And those decals over windows probably aren't a good idea, especially for BE who don't repaint their buses that often.

devnull · 27-07-2020 5:36pm

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Just stop messing around and adopt the DB Hybrid one above - or something as close as possible if there's legal/ownership issues with that - as the new fleet standard.

The Green livery is basically the trademarked Dublin Bus livery with the blues changed for greens and thus Dublin Bus would consider it as part of their brand and would be unlikely to sign the rights over to it unless they were compensated handsomely for this and even then they would still probably only license it.

It is imperative that the regulator and the tendering authority who is dispensing the funds and heavy capital investment in the PSO market has central control over these things, because at the end of the day that is their statutory job to do so which is enshrined in legislation.

I understand that there are some parties in the Irish transport landscape and groups with an interest in these matters that believe that the PSO network is not a team and that the phrase 'No I in Team' doesn't apply to them, but if we are ever to have a first class transport system that this country deserves, people need to start looking at the bigger picture, something that as a country we are not very good at doing.

devnull · 27-07-2020 6:07pm

GT89 wrote: »

Red is deemed a suitable colour for people with visual impairments as it stands maybe not as much as yellow, white is also considered suitable too I believe. Look at Berlin for example where buses are fully yellow. It dosen't look too bad.

I've seen people say bright blue is hard to see and it should be replaced by yellow. It was and now the bright blue front of a GAI bus is now more visible than a Dublin Bus vehicles because it features a brighter blue that is easier to see than the harder to see darker blue which is used on Dublin Bus. It's agreed by the optical profession generally that brighter colours are easier to see than darker ones.

The very same people have then criticised the same livery being rolled out to Bus Eireann vehicles because it makes them harder to see, despite the fact that they've been on record as saying that yellow is the best colour and they have previously indicated that blue and yellow is not a problem even in it's harder to see dark blue form on a front of a DB vehicle rather than the easier to see bright blue TFI front.

Since the idea for a yellow and green livery has come out I've heard of people complaining that it cannot be yellow and green because green is hard to see and have suggested in place of green, the harder to see dark blue of DB should be used. For some reason, for someone who was so concerned about visibility, they didn't want to see the easier to see brighter blue of the TFI livery used.

I do agree that there is merits in using bright colours and switching to a green and yellow palate is something that I support and I think changing from an all blue livery to include yellow initially was a good step. I am fully supportive of these measures and I agree that we need to cater for people with sight issues.

But lets not dress it up. There is clearly an element in those who are claiming the NTA liveries are hard to see whom are doing so because they just don't want to see the original liveries changed and it's a convenient smokescreen for the real reasons behind their objections.

The other thing is that I do not remember hearing any objections to the least visible livery to ever operate in Dublin, which was by a country mile the Wedding Bus livery that was hard to see for even an able sighed person, but I don't remember hearing any complaints about that livery, which is a surprise since there were plenty of partially sighed people around then also.

.anon. · 27-07-2020 6:15pm

devnull wrote: »

The other thing is that I do not remember hearing any objections to the least visible livery to ever operate in Dublin, which was by a country mile the Wedding Bus livery that was hard to see for even an able sighed person, but I don't remember hearing any complaints about that livery....

Or the Airlink livery, which manages to combine the two dullest shades of green imaginable.

VG44%20-%20Rt757%20-%20SamuelBeckettBridge%20-%20160716.jpg

VG44%20-%20Rt757%20-%20SamuelBeckettBridge%20-%20160716.jpg

They've already wasted too much time pandering to cranks. There is one particularly vocal 'disability activist and advocate', who will not be happy, whatever the outcome.

GT89 · 27-07-2020 6:28pm

devnull wrote: »

I've seen people say bright blue is hard to see and it should be replaced by yellow. It was and now the bright blue front of a GAI bus is now more visible than a Dublin Bus vehicles because it features a brighter blue that is easier to see than the harder to see darker blue which is used on Dublin Bus. It's agreed by the optical profession generally that brighter colours are easier to see than darker ones.

The very same people have then criticised the same livery being rolled out to Bus Eireann vehicles because it makes them harder to see, despite the fact that they've been on record as saying that yellow is the best colour and they have previously indicated that blue and yellow is not a problem even in it's harder to see dark blue form on a front of a DB vehicle rather than the easier to see bright blue TFI front.

Since the idea for a yellow and green livery has come out I've heard of people complaining that it cannot be yellow and green because green is hard to see and have suggested in place of green, the harder to see dark blue of DB should be used. For some reason, for someone who was so concerned about visibility, they didn't want to see the easier to see brighter blue of the TFI livery used.

I do agree that there is merits in using bright colours and switching to a green and yellow palate is something that I support and I think changing from an all blue livery to include yellow initially was a good step. I am fully supportive of these measures and I agree that we need to cater for people with sight issues.

But lets not dress it up. There is clearly an element in those who are claiming the NTA liveries are hard to see whom are doing so because they just don't want to see the original liveries changed and it's a convenient smokescreen for the real reasons behind their objections.

The other thing is that I do not remember hearing any objections to the least visible livery to ever operate in Dublin, which was by a country mile the Wedding Bus livery that was hard to see for even an able sighed person, but I don't remember hearing any complaints about that livery, which is a surprise since there were plenty of partially sighed people around then also.

I suppose they're argument could that the sides of a GAI bus are difficult to see as they are blue not yellow whereas DB buses have more yellow in them that's just at the from of the vehicle from the front the GAI bus is more visible. However if having the full bus visible to them it's entirety then they should also be calling on DB to stop using all over ads on some of the buses could make the bus 'disappear' to put it in their words to someone who is partly sighted.

The white is considered easier to see than green or blue I believe. I wouldn't say the wedding bus was the hardest to see in the DB but rather the dark green Airlink and Coastal Tours buses which can stray onto to regular PSO routes. DB have done away with the Wedding bus now and I haven't seen any Coastal Tours buses on regular routes for quite some time.

The only cases where I have non yellow livery buses on PSO routes has been Airlink buses that have strayed onto other Summerhill based routes predominantly the 16 and 41 due their luggage racks.

devnull · 27-07-2020 6:37pm

.anon. wrote: »

Or the Airlink livery, which manages to combine the two dullest shades of green imaginable.

I have heard that the argument with Airlink is that it is not a PSO service and there are only a small number of buses in this livery and therefore it doesn't matter if people cannot see these vehicles. Personally I don't think such argument holds water. I believe that accessibility considerations should apply to all passengers where they are able to do so, rather than just applying to bread and button routes but not applying the same principles on premium routes.

There have been hundreds of millions of airport passengers that could potentially use Dublin Bus Airlink services to travel to the airport in the last 10 years. I feel that these patrons, of which a fair number may have vision deficiencies should have also have been thought about when it came to commercial services too, so they can avail of the benefits of an express service like their non visually impaired friends and family.

That being said the free travel pass is not taken on the Airlink services so if someone has a registered disability or substantial vision issues they may need to pay so there probably wouldn't be many on those services anyway, so they'd probably take the slower 16 or 41 or maybe even Aircoach or a taxi.

devnull · 27-07-2020 6:42pm

GT89 wrote: »

I suppose they're argument could that the sides of a GAI bus are difficult to see as they are blue not yellow whereas DB buses have more yellow in them that's just at the from of the vehicle from the front the GAI bus is more visible. However if having the full bus visible to them it's entirety then they should also be calling on DB to stop using all over ads on some of the buses could make the bus 'disappear' to put it in their words to someone who is partly sighted.

The white is considered easier to see than green or blue I believe. I wouldn't say the wedding bus was the hardest to see in the DB but rather the dark green Airlink and Coastal Tours buses which can stray onto to regular PSO routes. DB have done away with the Wedding bus now and I haven't seen any Coastal Tours buses on regular routes for quite some time.

The only cases where I have non yellow livery buses on PSO routes has been Airlink buses that have strayed onto other Summerhill based routes predominantly the 16 and 41 due their luggage racks.

In my personal experience as a non partially sighed person, the problem with white is it blends into the background and is hard to pick out unless it contrasts with being in front or behind something very dark. If not it just doesn't stand out. But often how visible a colour is depends on what colour it's being used with.

GT89 · 27-07-2020 6:57pm

devnull wrote: »

I have heard that the argument with Airlink is that it is not a PSO service and there are only a small number of buses in this livery and therefore it doesn't matter if people cannot see these vehicles. Personally I don't think such argument holds water. I believe that accessibility considerations should apply to all passengers where they are able to do so, rather than just applying to applying it to bread and button routes but not applying the same principles on premium routes.

There have been hundreds of millions of airport passengers that could potentially use Dublin Bus Airlink services to travel to the airport in the last 10 years. I feel that these patrons, of which a fair number may have vision deficiencies should have also have been thought about when it came to commercial services too, so they can avail of the benefits of an express service like their non visually impaired friends and family.

That being said the free travel pass is not taken on the Airlink services so if someone has a registered disability or substantial vision issues they may need to pay so there probably wouldn't be many on those services anyway, so they'd probably take the slower 16 or 41 or maybe even Aircoach or a taxi.

The problem with the Airlink livery is the buses can and do sometimes stray onto PSO routes especially the 16 and 41.

Although this will likely be less of an issue as the buses are not in Summerhill anymore and are now based in Broadstone which is now becoming a full time depot. The 40 is supposed to be moving aswell as another Harristown route originally meant to be the 13 but discussions with the unions are ongoing as they understandably don't want a route that breaks in the depot to move.

New NTA Livery

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