Covid19 Part XIX-25,802 in ROI (1,753 deaths) 5,859 in NI (556 deaths) (21/07)Read OP

Gruffalux · 21-07-2020 09:56AM

KrustyUCC wrote: »

Nursing unions on RTE complaining that staff might not be reporting symptoms of Covid-19 due to not being paid if self isolating

Hmmm that might explain the very high rates of cases amongst health care workers

This might happen in lots of areas. So few places pay sick leave. Sites, shops, etc. People were wondering why some might refuse contact tracing tests - no work, no pay if they test positive. The way a lot live financially week to week means they would keep the head down if mildly symptomatic. Two weeks off could mean losing the flat. The middle class professionals in charge of managing Covid have no clue about that kind of financial burden.

Eod100 · 21-07-2020 10:00AM

stargazer 68 wrote: »

They are being paid their basic just not their premiums. This is extra they get for working weekends and nights. If you are off sick or on Al/PL you don't get these premiums normally. The HSE made the decision back in March that any staff on Covid leave - no matter how long for - would not be paid the premiums.

Can't have staff who are off for 3-4 months being paid extra for hours that aren't worked. And yes there are staff off since March with underlying conditions. There are also staff gone out with 'symptoms' several times since March and had negative swabs. Has to be a line somewhere IMO.

Sure just think in context of infectious disease like this it might be necessary. Don't think it should be for anyone off 3-4 months. More the 2 weeks so people aren't reluctant to get tested and self-isolate.

It's a tricky one but in a healthcare setting seems like everything needs to be done to avoid risk of spread including proper access to PPE also.

gipi · 21-07-2020 10:02AM

A poster asked about underlying condition statistics - I found this on the hspc website, which might be of interest

https://www.hpsc.ie/a-z/respiratory/coronavirus/novelcoronavirus/surveillance/underlyingconditionsreports/

podgeandrodge · 21-07-2020 10:05AM

redmgar wrote: »

For any who thinks that numbers are being manipulated to appear larger, what reason would the government do this?

I don't personally think any figures are being manipulated, but some of the language perhaps suggests things are of more concern than they really should be recently. I would say they are looking to other countries' experiences and pulling back just a tad for a few weeks from their previous schedule. I do think that minor case rises were used a bit by them to further this, as opposed to saying they just want to take a step back and watch elsewhere.

Eod100 · 21-07-2020 10:07AM

Gruffalox wrote: »

This might happen in lots of areas. So few places pay sick leave. Sites, shops, etc. People were wondering why some might refuse contact tracing tests - no work, no pay if they test positive. The way a lot live financially week to week means they would keep the head down if mildly symptomatic. Two weeks off could mean losing the flat. The middle class professionals in charge of managing Covid have no clue about that kind of financial burden.

Should have been statutory sick pay for anyone who tests positive if not already entitled to sick pay for 14 days. Not right that people be financially peanalised for doing the right thing.

Either way there's going to be financial cost of potentially affecting others, loss of productivity etc so need solutions like this.

Eod100 · 21-07-2020 10:10AM

podgeandrodge wrote: »

I don't personally think any figures are being manipulated, but some of the language perhaps suggests things are of more concern than they really should be recently. I would say they are looking to other countries' experiences and pulling back just a tad for a few weeks from their previous schedule. I do think that minor case rises were used a bit by them to further this, as opposed to saying they just want to take a step back and watch elsewhere.

I guess a lot of it was erring on the side of caution. They can only model to a certain extent and clusters could potentially increase the estimated number of cases over next few weeks. With prospect of pubs opening and wanting to open schools by end of next month think they didn't want to take the risk.

seamus · 21-07-2020 10:11AM

NegativeCreep wrote: »

I know I’m going to sound like a crazy anti vaccine person and I really am not but I don’t think I’d agree to be part of the first wave people getting this vaccine. Considering the swine flu vaccine was rushed and caused narcolepsy and other weird side effects, I’ll give it a miss until a lot of other people have had it. This virus won’t pose a threat to me if I get it but I could certainly do without narcolepsy in my life.

Just to clarify, it's incredibly unlikely that this vaccine would give you narcolepsy specifically. That came with one particular brand of flu vaccine, where other brands that vaccinated for the same virus didn't cause narcolepsy. So they have a pretty good grip on why it happened in that case.

The rate was also very low - just over 3 cases per 100,000 vaccinations. The media created a perception that all of the swine flu vaccines caused narcolepsy, caused it in large numbers, and was due to the vaccine being rushed. And none of these things are true.

Of course, it's narcolepsy. It's horrible. There was a 0.003% chance of developing narcolepsy from a shot, and (in hindsight) a 0.00042% chance of contracting and dying from swine flu. So I'll forgo the vaccine, thanks.

We should absolutely be wary of a quickly-developed vaccine. To cover as many bases as we can. But we should also take all of the data together to make informed decisions.

Given today's figures, about 0.5% of the Irish population have contracted covid. And the fatality rate is 7%.

That means that your chances of contracting and dying from covid are 0.035%. Which itself is very low. But if the odds of developing <insert disabling disease here> from the vaccine are 0.003%, then on balance it's a decent payoff. If you do nothing you're ten times more likely to die from covid, than you are to contract <something> if you get the vaccine.

DebDynamite · 21-07-2020 10:14AM

castletownman wrote: »

* a lot of Americans arrive in Sept/Oct when flights over are cheaper. Expect a swell that time of year for those wary of their arrival.

I’d be worried about the amount of American tourists who were due to come here for the sell-out college football game between Notre Dame and Navy on 29th August in Croke Park. Last time they played here around 10 years ago, 35,000 Americans travelled over, so I would imagine the same numbers were due to travel this time around. It was also cancelled quite late in the day - only last month.

If airlines weren’t giving refunds, I would imagine a lot would still travel. Why not - coming from a country riddled with the virus to a country who are now reporting minuscule cases daily.

Does anyone know has any message been relayed to America asking them not to travel over here? Have they any idea we don’t want them and the level of concern they’re causing us? Do they see that we’ve not banned them as a green light?

Pitch n Putt · 21-07-2020 10:14AM

JP Liz V1 wrote: »

Any idea where the supermarket cases / clusters are?

There is none it just suits the implementation of mandatory mask wearing

No known clusters or cases in supermarkets all through March , April and May when there was much more community transmission and suddenly after the mandatory mask wearing some appear.

Ridiculous and they must think people are real stupid if they believe that spin.

The real question is why are we in this country prolonging this?

Why are we months and months late with masks etc on transport and now all retail outlets?

What’s the point at this stage

Why was a construction site closed after 20 plus test positive but meat factory with hundreds of cases stayed open ?

robbiezero · 21-07-2020 10:17AM

seamus wrote: »

Just to clarify, it's incredibly unlikely that this vaccine would give you narcolepsy specifically. That came with one particular brand of flu vaccine, where other brands that vaccinated for the same virus didn't cause narcolepsy. So they have a pretty good grip on why it happened in that case.

The rate was also very low - just over 3 cases per 100,000 vaccinations. The media created a perception that all of the swine flu vaccines caused narcolepsy, caused it in large numbers, and was due to the vaccine being rushed. And none of these things are true.

Of course, it's narcolepsy. It's horrible. There was a 0.003% chance of developing narcolepsy from a shot, and (in hindsight) a 0.00042% chance of contracting and dying from swine flu. So I'll forgo the vaccine, thanks.

We should absolutely be wary of a quickly-developed vaccine. To cover as many bases as we can. But we should also take all of the data together to make informed decisions.

Given today's figures, about 0.5% of the Irish population have contracted covid. And the fatality rate is 7%.

That means that your chances of contracting and dying from covid are 0.035%. Which itself is very low. But if the odds of developing <insert disabling disease here> from the vaccine are 0.003%, then on balance it's a decent payoff. If you do nothing you're ten times more likely to die from covid, than you are to contract <something> if you get the vaccine.

Surely age and health will vastly skew your odds one way or the other?

Widdensushi · 21-07-2020 10:24AM

Pitch n Putt wrote: »

There is none it just suits the implementation of mandatory mask wearing

No known clusters or cases in supermarkets all through March , April and May when there was much more community transmission and suddenly after the mandatory mask wearing some appear.

Ridiculous and they must think people are real stupid if they believe that spin.

The real question is why are we in this country prolonging this?

Why are we months and months late with masks etc on transport and now all retail outlets?

What’s the point at this stage

Why was a construction site closed after 20 plus test positive but meat factory with hundreds of cases stayed open ?

Different government making their mark, also changes the discussion from cowengate

seamus · 21-07-2020 10:24AM

robbiezero wrote: »

Surely age and health will vastly skew your odds one way or the other?

Yes, but these factors also impact the odds of developing complications from the vaccine. The narcolepsy issue, for example was found in one study to only impact immature immune systems - teenagers and children.

There are too many variables to make person-specific recommendations, you have to look at the numbers as a whole.

redmgar · 21-07-2020 10:31AM

podgeandrodge wrote: »

I don't personally think any figures are being manipulated, but some of the language perhaps suggests things are of more concern than they really should be recently. I would say they are looking to other countries' experiences and pulling back just a tad for a few weeks from their previous schedule. I do think that minor case rises were used a bit by them to further this, as opposed to saying they just want to take a step back and watch elsewhere.

I think that it's an over cautious approach, but understandable in relation to public health. But I think some people have suggested that cases are being bulked together on certain days to inflate numbers, which has a whiff of basement dwelling conspiracy theorist about it.

NegativeCreep · 21-07-2020 10:34AM

seamus wrote: »

Just to clarify, it's incredibly unlikely that this vaccine would give you narcolepsy specifically. That came with one particular brand of flu vaccine, where other brands that vaccinated for the same virus didn't cause narcolepsy. So they have a pretty good grip on why it happened in that case.

The rate was also very low - just over 3 cases per 100,000 vaccinations. The media created a perception that all of the swine flu vaccines caused narcolepsy, caused it in large numbers, and was due to the vaccine being rushed. And none of these things are true.

Of course, it's narcolepsy. It's horrible. There was a 0.003% chance of developing narcolepsy from a shot, and (in hindsight) a 0.00042% chance of contracting and dying from swine flu. So I'll forgo the vaccine, thanks.

We should absolutely be wary of a quickly-developed vaccine. To cover as many bases as we can. But we should also take all of the data together to make informed decisions.

Given today's figures, about 0.5% of the Irish population have contracted covid. And the fatality rate is 7%.

That means that your chances of contracting and dying from covid are 0.035%. Which itself is very low. But if the odds of developing <insert disabling disease here> from the vaccine are 0.003%, then on balance it's a decent payoff. If you do nothing you're ten times more likely to die from covid, than you are to contract <something> if you get the vaccine.

I agree with all of that mostly.

I’m technically 10 times more likely to die from COVID than getting anything from a vaccine yes. But if you factor in me being 27 and healthy I’d imagine that chance goes way down. I’m not saying I won’t take the vaccine but I’m going to be far from the front of the queue.

Away With The Fairies · 21-07-2020 10:35AM

KrustyUCC wrote: »

Nursing unions on RTE complaining that staff might not be reporting symptoms of Covid-19 due to not being paid if self isolating

Hmmm that might explain the very high rates of cases amongst health care workers

Don't you get illness benefit from the first day if you need to self isolate?

stargazer 68 · 21-07-2020 10:40AM

Away With The Fairies wrote: »

Don't you get illness benefit from the first day if you need to self isolate?

Nope you get your normal salary minus any 'extras'. Covid leave is paid without impacting your SL record

Away With The Fairies · 21-07-2020 10:41AM

Pitch n Putt wrote: »

There is none it just suits the implementation of mandatory mask wearing

No known clusters or cases in supermarkets all through March , April and May when there was much more community transmission and suddenly after the mandatory mask wearing some appear.

Ridiculous and they must think people are real stupid if they believe that spin.

The real question is why are we in this country prolonging this?

Why are we months and months late with masks etc on transport and now all retail outlets?

What’s the point at this stage

Why was a construction site closed after 20 plus test positive but meat factory with hundreds of cases stayed open ?

How exactly do you know that shop workers weren't getting this in March or April. There were people with symptoms and couldn't get a test because they haven't travelled or they weren't in the at risk group.

ACitizenErased · 21-07-2020 10:48AM

Delhi in India’s seroprevalence tests have come back at 23.48%, meaning at least 4.7 million have been infected.

https://pib.gov.in/PressReleaseIframePage.aspx?PRID=1640137

is_that_so · 21-07-2020 10:48AM

Away With The Fairies wrote: »

How exactly do you know that shop workers weren't getting this in March or April. There were people with symptoms and couldn't get a test because they haven't travelled or they weren't in the at risk group.

They may have been but there is a sense that this is being highlighted now less to inform and more to drive government policy. Retail has had very few cases, according to the retailers themselves.

hmmm · 21-07-2020 10:51AM

seamus wrote: »

If you do nothing you're ten times more likely to die from covid, than you are to contract <something> if you get the vaccine.

Plus think of the people in at-risk groups who won't be able to receive a vaccine. They are dependent on the rest of us getting immunity in order for them to be protected. You have a civic duty (in my opinion) to get vaccinated.

ShineOn7 · 21-07-2020 11:09AM

seamus wrote: »

Just to clarify, it's incredibly unlikely that this vaccine would give you narcolepsy specifically. That came with one particular brand of flu vaccine, where other brands that vaccinated for the same virus didn't cause narcolepsy. So they have a pretty good grip on why it happened in that case.

The rate was also very low - just over 3 cases per 100,000 vaccinations. The media created a perception that all of the swine flu vaccines caused narcolepsy, caused it in large numbers, and was due to the vaccine being rushed. And none of these things are true.

Of course, it's narcolepsy. It's horrible. There was a 0.003% chance of developing narcolepsy from a shot, and (in hindsight) a 0.00042% chance of contracting and dying from swine flu. So I'll forgo the vaccine, thanks.

We should absolutely be wary of a quickly-developed vaccine. To cover as many bases as we can. But we should also take all of the data together to make informed decisions.

Given today's figures, about 0.5% of the Irish population have contracted covid. And the fatality rate is 7%.

That means that your chances of contracting and dying from covid are 0.035%. Which itself is very low. But if the odds of developing <insert disabling disease here> from the vaccine are 0.003%, then on balance it's a decent payoff. If you do nothing you're ten times more likely to die from covid, than you are to contract <something> if you get the vaccine.

Excellent post

The worldwide fatality rate is somewhere around 2 or 3% versus Ireland's 7%

Given the huge amount of nursing home mortalities in Ireland (a third of the total number I believe?), it's easy enough to work out why we're 5% higher than the average

Pitch n Putt · 21-07-2020 11:10AM

Away With The Fairies wrote: »

How exactly do you know that shop workers weren't getting this in March or April. There were people with symptoms and couldn't get a test because they haven't travelled or they weren't in the at risk group.

Well supermarkets were one of the only places open during March ,April and May and no reporting of huge clusters or fear they may have to close as all the staff were unable to work due to having contracted the virus.
Even though they would have been working 10-12 hrs per day in contact with many people and masks were not mandatory.

The main spread of this virus was caused by the decision to clear the hospitals for the so called surge that was to happen.

This resulted in the hundreds of unnecessary deaths of elderly nursing home residents as hospital beds were cleared but positive covid cases WERE sent to the nursing homes.

The people weren’t even tested before been sent there for God’s sake

This all happened under the guidance of the CMO at the time and the mans being hailed as a hero now by many.

Maybe if we prolong it here and keep the fear factor going for another few months the real disaster of our actions as outlined above may be forgotten and no questions will need to be answered as to why this was allowed to happen.

And then we can all get back to normal with the same HSE cartel and a ongoing non functional health care system wasting millions and millions for another decade or more.

NegativeCreep · 21-07-2020 11:11AM

ShineOn7 wrote: »

Excellent post

The worldwide fatality rate is somewhere around 2 or 3% versus Ireland's 7%

Given the huge amount of nursing home mortalities in Ireland (a third of the total number I believe?), it's easy enough to work out why we're 5% higher than the average

And including those who died with covid, not just those that died because of covid

is_that_so · 21-07-2020 11:15AM

NegativeCreep wrote: »

And including those who died with covid, not just those that died because of covid

That data can be teased out in the underlying causes analysis but that's how a diagnosis works. If that's what you have when you die then that's what killed you. Recording of deaths looks at the overall effect of COVID and unfortunately it rapidly accelerated the decline for some.

NegativeCreep · 21-07-2020 11:18AM

is_that_so wrote: »

That data can be teased out in the underlying causes analysis but that's how a diagnosis works. If that's what you have when you die then that's what killed you.

That’s not true. If I have genital warts and die of a heart attack, it wasn’t the genital warts that killed me.

is_that_so · 21-07-2020 11:20AM

NegativeCreep wrote: »

That’s not true. If I have genital warts and die of a heart attack, it wasn’t the genital warts that killed me.

But the determined cause of death would be a heart attack, just like COVID was for many cases during this.

podgeandrodge · 21-07-2020 11:21AM

Away With The Fairies wrote: »

How exactly do you know that shop workers weren't getting this in March or April. There were people with symptoms and couldn't get a test because they haven't travelled or they weren't in the at risk group.

Pitch n Putt wrote: »

Well supermarkets were one of the only places open during March ,April and May and no reporting of huge clusters or fear they may have to close as all the staff were unable to work due to having contracted the virus.
Even though they would have been working 10-12 hrs per day in contact with many people and masks were not mandatory.

The main spread of this virus was caused by the decision to clear the hospitals for the so called surge that was to happen.

This resulted in the hundreds of unnecessary deaths of elderly nursing home residents as hospital beds were cleared but positive covid cases WERE sent to the nursing homes.

The people weren’t even tested before been sent there for God’s sake

This all happened under the guidance of the CMO at the time and the mans being hailed as a hero now by many.

Maybe if we prolong it here and keep the fear factor going for another few months the real disaster of our actions as outlined above may be forgotten and no questions will need to be answered as to why this was allowed to happen.

And then we can all get back to normal with the same HSE cartel and a ongoing non functional health care system wasting millions and millions for another decade or more.

Not only this, if supermarkets were spreading locations, community transmission would not have got to such low rates. They are practically the only business out there that has had consistent usage by the population on a regular basis. And I don't subscribe to this "ahh but they only had one person per trolley back then". It's simply too convenient that when the Govt made the choice to push masks that supermarkets are now a problem!

podgeandrodge · 21-07-2020 11:22AM

NegativeCreep wrote: »

That’s not true. If I have genital warts and die of a heart attack, it wasn’t the genital warts that killed me.

That's a bit "negative" of you

But best of luck with the treatment!:pac:

hmmm · 21-07-2020 11:24AM

NegativeCreep wrote: »

I’m technically 10 times more likely to die from COVID than getting anything from a vaccine yes. But if you factor in me being 27 and healthy I’d imagine that chance goes way down. I’m not saying I won’t take the vaccine but I’m going to be far from the front of the queue.

I wonder if people are forgetting the long-term side effects reported by many Covid-infected people (up to 50%?). The risk of death looks low, but there's plenty of reports of brain-fog, shortness of breath, kidney, lung, heart damage - and for many it hasn't gone away. We're still not sure if this is a temporary thing or a chronic condition.

I personally am not so worried about death, but would like to be able to walk up a set of stairs without getting out of breath. The miniscule risk from a vaccine seems pretty minor to me.

What Username Guidelines · 21-07-2020 11:27AM

hmmm wrote: »

Plus think of the people in at-risk groups who won't be able to receive a vaccine. They are dependent on the rest of us getting immunity in order for them to be protected. You have a civic duty (in my opinion) to get vaccinated.

A lot of the anti-vax arguments before this were "Let me choose for my kid" and if they do contract something and pass it on, then it's the other kids fault for not being vaccinated as well.. My daughter can't have some vaccinations and trying to argue with these people gets you nowhere. They know what's right and it's "their body, their choice" type of stuff. :rolleyes:

Covid19 Part XIX-25,802 in ROI (1,753 deaths) 5,859 in NI (556 deaths) (21/07)Read OP

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