Completely Put Off Having Children

28-05-2020 10:00AM

bitofabind wrote: »

. I think the decision is a lot more personal to people than "I want to save the planet by not producing spawn."

It is kind of interesting that it's pretty much the first justification brought up though..

Hector Savage · 28-05-2020 10:24AM

DrPhilG wrote: »

People who look at parents and give them the condescending "poor you, tied down for life to screaming brats, your life is not your own anymore" are assholes.

People who look at child free people and give them the condescending "poor you, having kids is the only true happiness, what an empty existence you must have" are assholes.

spot on!

Hamsterchops · 28-05-2020 10:25AM

Bumped into an old flame a few years ago, she still hadn't settled & started a family (by choice), but when I told her that I'd tied the knot & had children she said "well done, you chose to do it the hard way", by which I understood her to mean that having children is the hard way, and indeed it is, but that's the path I took ......

tobefrank321 · 28-05-2020 10:30AM

Historically speaking, the world has never been more peaceful and prior to covid 19 prosperous. Its expected that most children born today can live into their 90s, with access to medicines and treatments. While covid 19 is an issue, its not the black death or some untreatable illness. Its a temporary blip that will resolve itself in a few years. Climate change may be a problem but its unlikely to be a significant problem for Ireland. Children born today can expect to live long healthy prosperous lives, far more so than any previous generation, most of whom did live in squalor.

bitofabind · 28-05-2020 10:36AM

Deleted User wrote: »

It is kind of interesting that it's pretty much the first justification brought up though..

Maybe because it's a logical argument? It's facts, like. And it's hard to explain or justify emotions, they're a lot more subjective than "there are already 7 billion people on the planet and having kids is demonstrably catastrophic for the environment."

I think these decisions are personal, and that's if they're actually consciously made and not a matter of it either just "happening" or "not happening" based on life circumstances. Most recent parents I know planned it having followed the traditional relationship progression route. With a few "just happened" folks who had unexpected pregnancies and went along with it. Most non-parents, like me, it just didn't or hasn't "happened" yet due to life circumstances. These wider arguments are irrelevant for most people IMO.

pgj2015 · 28-05-2020 10:37AM

tobefrank321 wrote: »

Historically speaking, the world has never been more peaceful and prior to covid 19 prosperous. Its expected that most children born today can live into their 90s, with access to medicines and treatments. While covid 19 is an issue, its not the black death or some untreatable illness. Its a temporary blip that will resolve itself in a few years. Climate change may be a problem but its unlikely to be a significant problem for Ireland. Children born today can expect to live long healthy prosperous lives, far more so than any previous generation, most of whom did live in squalor.

The one thing id be worried for the kids of today is robots taking a huge amount of jobs. will there be jobs for everyone who wants them? even if universal basic income is introduced, people are far better off working than getting money for nothing.

28-05-2020 10:38AM

dartboardio wrote: »

I'm young and although I don't really 'like' children at the moment, I definitely want them down the line.

My main reasons would be that I grew up an only child and would love to have a busy home, with people running in and out all day.

A big family around at Christmas time, when you grow old, etc.

Id like to have at least two/or three when I'm older.

I can't think of any other reason other than I suppose I'd hate to grow old and never have a family around me. Ill never be an aunt as I have no siblings so I definitely want kids.

Although I'd be pretty old fashioned in my thinking so would love the idea of a 'husband and 4 kids' and would think if I didn't have children I'd see myself as odd

I completely understand and see how a life could be great without kids, but I'd feel like I was missing out for sure if I never had them.

Why would you consider children in your future if you did not like them? Do you think you would change your mind?

I think a lot of people have children for the "wrong" reasons. They fall in love with an ideal. A gorgeous baby, cuddles, love. It's so much more than that. Then there are those who want to fill a hole in themselves or even their relationship. Maybe they feel unloved, maybe they want to live through their child, maybe they want to save a marriage. They are simply not good reasons. Children are individuals and should never be used to compensate for our own lack.

A few people here have mentioned adoption or fostering as options well let me tell you that neither are a walk in the park. Children who have experienced a rupture between themselves and their biological parent require a particular heightened and attuned level of care from their "new" parents. Again I wonder about the reasons.

Having a child should be about that child. Not connected to ticking life stage boxes of romantic notions of making daisy chains in a field. In my opinion it is one of the most important roles a person could have and must be taken very seriously.

OP if you do decide to have a baby then strive to be good enough. Meet their emotional needs consistently. There will of course be times you won't but makesure you repair those times. Love them but they must know absolutely that they are loved. My own dad has never said those words to me "I love you Persepoly" but I have never once doubted it.

What you don't want is a scenario years down the line when your adult child is telling a therapist "I never felt loved" or "I don't recall feeling loved".

EmmetSpiceland · 28-05-2020 10:39AM

pgj2015 wrote: »

people are far netter off working than getting money for nothing.

People, or robots?

cgcsb · 28-05-2020 11:01AM

tobefrank321 wrote: »

Historically speaking, the world has never been more peaceful and prior to covid 19 prosperous. Its expected that most children born today can live into their 90s, with access to medicines and treatments. While covid 19 is an issue, its not the black death or some untreatable illness. Its a temporary blip that will resolve itself in a few years. Climate change may be a problem but its unlikely to be a significant problem for Ireland. Children born today can expect to live long healthy prosperous lives, far more so than any previous generation, most of whom did live in squalor.

This is the thing, millenials and Gen Z middle class young adults cant afford to home themselves. How is that prosperous? Not just in Ireland but in every western country that hasn't taken a pro-active approach to housing.

28-05-2020 11:21AM

Wanderer19 wrote: »

I feel guilty bringing two children into this world. Global warming, country is so badly managed, cost of housing, overpopulated. Lack of a good education or healthcare system. Places of natural beauty/historical interest being shut/restricted to the public. I can definitely understand why others wouldn't want children.

The hysteria emanating from this post is palpable. Much of if is not supported by data or facts.

- Lack of a good education: Ireland was ranked #10 globally in the 2019 PISA study, third highest in Europe just behind Finland and Estonia. That’s a pretty good outcome by any measure.

- Heath care: This is one of the safest countries in the world, in which to give birth. Sure, it’s not perfect and is not the best system in Europe. However, it’s still amongst the top cohort worldwide.

- Over-populated: Ireland has one of the lowest population densities in Europe. Our natural growth rate (births - deaths) is about 30K people per year. Self-sustaining, but hardly over-whelming.

- Beauty spots / places of historical interest: They’ll re-open when we beat this pandemic. All the metrics indicate that we’re getting there.

I truly hope that you do not transmit your bleak, pessimistic world view to your children. If so, you’re doing them a huge disservice and setting them up for a lifetime of being scared of their own shadows.

There is so much beauty in Ireland and the wider world. Please put down your phone and step outside to enjoy it.

FVP3 · 28-05-2020 12:09PM

tobefrank321 wrote: »

Historically speaking, the world has never been more peaceful and prior to covid 19 prosperous. Its expected that most children born today can live into their 90s, with access to medicines and treatments. While covid 19 is an issue, its not the black death or some untreatable illness. Its a temporary blip that will resolve itself in a few years. Climate change may be a problem but its unlikely to be a significant problem for Ireland. Children born today can expect to live long healthy prosperous lives, far more so than any previous generation, most of whom did live in squalor.

That statement is well out of date. Sure by the standards of the 19th C and before the future may be bright but not by the standards of the post war era.

In fact living standards have either fallen or stagnated in most of the West, there are fewer well paying unionised jobs, and more job insecurity, as manufacturing has left for China. Houses are more expensive as is rent, in the "successful" areas. The reduces real disposable income and reduces home ownership, which used to be the definition of being middle class. Entire generations have been written off in Europe since 2008 and some of those will be hit by the second major crisis in ten years ( as have we all).

Pensions are uncertain and its likely that people will enter old age poor in the future and remain so. Life Expectancy is dropping in the US and that is likely to continue, and other western countries may follow. Taxes are inexorably going up to pay for a larger number of penionser, and theres' a marked reluctance to tax wealth, as I found out in a different thread. So the taxes will all be on wages.

I haven't mentioned climate change or automation, the former's effects will be seen in 2100 or later despite some of the more extravagant claims made, the latter is uncertain. Neither are likely to be good.

Funny enough, the crisis I am talking about derives from people having too few children, not too many.

FVP3 · 28-05-2020 12:12PM

Hamachi wrote: »

The hysteria emanating from this post is palpable. Much of if is not supported by data or facts.

- Lack of a good education: Ireland was ranked #10 globally in the 2019 PISA study, third highest in Europe just behind Finland and Estonia. That’s a pretty good outcome by any measure.

- Heath care: This is one of the safest countries in the world, in which to give birth. Sure, it’s not perfect and is not the best system in Europe. However, it’s still amongst the top cohort worldwide.

- Over-populated: Ireland has one of the lowest population densities in Europe. Our natural growth rate (births - deaths) is about 30K people per year. Self-sustaining, but hardly over-whelming.

- Beauty spots / places of historical interest: They’ll re-open when we beat this pandemic. All the metrics indicate that we’re getting there.

I truly hope that you do not transmit your bleak, pessimistic world view to your children. If so, you’re doing them a huge disservice and setting them up for a lifetime of being scared of their own shadows.

There is so much beauty in Ireland and the wider world. Please put down your phone and step outside to enjoy it.

Ireland is actually in a good position, and we don't have that bad a leadership compared to the US and UK at present. However the large secular decline affecting the West will happen here eventually.

Hector Savage · 28-05-2020 12:26PM

FVP3 wrote: »

Ireland is actually in a good position, and we don't have that bad a leadership compared to the US and UK at present. However the large secular decline affecting the West will happen here eventually.

Large secular decline ? can you expand on that ?

FVP3 · 28-05-2020 12:30PM

Hector Savage wrote: »

Large secular decline ? can you expand on that ?

Secular = long term.

Harry Palmr · 28-05-2020 12:33PM

Unfortunately this generation of potential home owners is going to be the first to be measurably poorer than their parents.

bilbot79 · 28-05-2020 12:35PM

That society is awful is in fact the very reason to have children.

Please go ahead and produce a decent citizen, lest we be outnumbered by scrotes that indulge in squalor

Hector Savage · 28-05-2020 12:42PM

FVP3 wrote: »

Secular = long term.

are you saying secularism is declining though ?

FVP3 · 28-05-2020 12:56PM

Hector Savage wrote: »

are you saying secularism is declining though ?

No I am saying that the term secular is another way of saying long term.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secular_stagnation

28-05-2020 01:02PM

I've never been particularly keen on having children but always considered it a possibility.

I think I'm now at the stage though that wanting kids would be a deal breaker for me in a potential future relationship.

Jenneke87 · 28-05-2020 01:06PM

I just can not see a future for any children I night have. My sister gave forth to a little not last year and I fear for his future already, there will be nothing left for him.

28-05-2020 01:10PM

bilbot79 wrote: »

Please go ahead and produce a decent citizen, lest we be outnumbered by scrotes that indulge in squalor

Working on it

My kids so far are turning out alright. Who knows if they might derail over night some day though.

I recently took on some teenage "scrotes" from the local area though and have been turning them into upstanding citizens. So overall I think I have been doing a net positive to the world

28-05-2020 01:18PM

Jenneke87 wrote: »

I just can not see a future for any children I night have. My sister gave forth to a little not last year and I fear for his future already, there will be nothing left for him.

Why will there be nothing left for him?

c.p.w.g.w · 28-05-2020 01:24PM

bilbot79 wrote: »

That society is awful is in fact the very reason to have children.

Please go ahead and produce a decent citizen, lest we be outnumbered by scrotes that indulge in squalor

But aren't those scrotes that indulge in squalor have lower life expectancy as a result of poor education and depending on public health system

28-05-2020 01:27PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Why will there be nothing left for him?

You can't really blame the youth for this outlook either really though..
It's being drilled into them from every side..

28-05-2020 01:56PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

You can't really blame the youth for this outlook either really though..
It's being drilled into them from every side..

There are two quotes I came across a number of years ago. I can't remember who said them or the exact words. The first one is that we see the world as we are and the second is how some prisoners look out and see mud and others see stars.

The world is an amazing and beautiful place. It is also a terrible and ugly place. We can decide which view to focus on. I choose the first. That doesn't mean I am blind to the negatives but it just isn't part of my focus.

FVP3 · 28-05-2020 01:59PM

Deleted User wrote: »

There are two quotes I came across a number of years ago. I can't remember who said them or the exact words. The first one is that we see the world as we are and the second is how some prisoners look out and see mud and others see stars.

The world is an amazing and beautiful place. It is also a terrible and ugly place. We can decide which view to focus on. I choose the first. That doesn't mean I am blind to the negatives but it just isn't part of my focus.

Be lucky to get a view of the stars in prison. You would need a room with a sky light? Also what about cloudy days?

You are right that the world is great in many ways. However the discussion here is about the future, and having children. While in no way personally pessimistic I am theoretically pessimistic about the future. I am not expecting societal collapse but I am expecting economically things to be worse for children growing into adults now.

Roger the cabin boy · 28-05-2020 02:32PM

Its almost like the economy is the only reason to live...

The end of growth based capitalism can't come soon enough

28-05-2020 02:32PM

FVP3 wrote: »

Be lucky to get a view of the stars in prison. You would need a room with a sky light? Also what about cloudy days?

You are right that the world is great in many ways. However the discussion here is about the future, and having children. While in no way personally pessimistic I am theoretically pessimistic about the future. I am not expecting societal collapse but I am expecting economically things to be worse for children growing into adults now.

The quote is regarding perspective. How do we see the world? What are our values? I see the world as an amazing place regardless of the economy. If I had a child I would hope they share my view.

BailMeOut · 28-05-2020 02:36PM

We are erring on the side of not, because we feel that society is absolute squalor and couldn't reconcile bringing a child into it.

where the heck are you living and maybe you should move somewhere nicer first as life is too short to be living like this?

tobefrank321 · 28-05-2020 04:24PM

FVP3 wrote: »

That statement is well out of date. Sure by the standards of the 19th C and before the future may be bright but not by the standards of the post war era.

In fact living standards have either fallen or stagnated in most of the West, there are fewer well paying unionised jobs, and more job insecurity, as manufacturing has left for China. Houses are more expensive as is rent, in the "successful" areas. The reduces real disposable income and reduces home ownership, which used to be the definition of being middle class. Entire generations have been written off in Europe since 2008 and some of those will be hit by the second major crisis in ten years ( as have we all).

Pensions are uncertain and its likely that people will enter old age poor in the future and remain so. Life Expectancy is dropping in the US and that is likely to continue, and other western countries may follow. Taxes are inexorably going up to pay for a larger number of penionser, and theres' a marked reluctance to tax wealth, as I found out in a different thread. So the taxes will all be on wages.

I haven't mentioned climate change or automation, the former's effects will be seen in 2100 or later despite some of the more extravagant claims made, the latter is uncertain. Neither are likely to be good.

Funny enough, the crisis I am talking about derives from people having too few children, not too many.

We can take Ireland as an example.

Tell me an era when we were more prosperous or more peaceful?

1920s? 1930s? 1940s? 50s? 60s? 70s? 80s?

We only started to become prosperous from the mid 90s onwards. And peaceful.

We can take the UK - world wars, cold war, post war rationing, oil crisis, Thatcher, etc

US, similar.

Tell me a previous era more prosperous or peaceful?

Sure houses are more expensive. That's because people have an utterly stupid desire to live in low density houses in cities, or else apartments in the middle of cities. High house prices also reflect higher wages.

Most non unionised jobs pay reasonably well. Most unionised jobs don't pay that well. There is no link between unionised and pay. One of the reasons for the collapse in jobs in various parts of the west is because of strong unionisation. The company owners said to hell with this and moved to Asia or elsewhere.

As for automation, we've had automation for half a century in most industries. And yet before covid 19 we had virtually full employment in the west. The fear of automation is misplaced. Many companies such as car companies would not be possible without robots working alongside people. Without the robots, they'd go bust, putting tens of thousands on the dole.

Pensions are largely secure and usually bounce back, unless you decide to invest in high risk areas, which many people do. The key is in the words high risk. Either high returns or bust. If you invest sensibly, your pension will be fine.

State pensions are secure.

Life expectancy is almost twice what it is in practically every century up to the 20th.

So the idea that we are now living in a era of squalor or one of the worst times in history is not supported by anything.

Completely Put Off Having Children

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