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The Hobby Horses of Belief (and assorted hazards)

  • 28-04-2020 11:51am
    #1
    Bannasidhe
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭


    Alas and alack Hazards of Belief thread reached the end of it's meandering musings and had to be stabled.

    Fear not - we have a new track to gallop upon.

    Previous thread started here in June, 2006 and finished here in April 2020.


«134567…30

Comments

  • #2
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,705 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    continued from previous thread...
    nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »
    You are not comparing like with like here, and are instead talking about something where we would be much more in agreement. I would be applying the term "hobby" to pursuits one does of ones own volition. If religion, or religious practice, is being forced upon you and you have no choice in it then absolutely I would lose the term "hobby" and seek another. I would be looking for words in the direction of "Abuse" "indentured" and more to describe that.

    Thing is, the vast majority of people who are religious got their religion by dint of where they were born. It was never a matter of choice or preference. Religion is by and large something presented to children at a very young age by their family, reinforced during education and expected of them by their community. It is an intrinsic part of many societies not a leisure time adjunct.

    As religiosity diminishes in some countries like Ireland, it is easy to compare those few who remain more devout in the same light as obsessive hobbyists but I personally don't think this is reasonable.


  • #3
    nozzferrahhtoo
    Registered Users Posts: 9,336 ✭✭✭nozzferrahhtoo


    smacl wrote: »
    Thing is, the vast majority of people who are religious got their religion by dint of where they were born. It was never a matter of choice or preference.

    I kinda both agree and disagree with that. Though I do not see it as negating my use of the word the conversation started about. I see it as a useful different conversation entirely.

    I once heard the statistic for example that people in the US change religion more often than they change cell phone provider. Here in the west religion is more of a choice than it is in the more Fundamentalist Muslim areas you mentioned. Remember my original post, not about the word hobby at all, was about charity in a US context.

    And that is a useful distinction. Something forced upon you, that you can not NOT partake in, is not something I ever would, or ever had, called a hobby. I call it an abuse. An abuse that much of my work off line in the real world of activism has been directed at preventing or changing.


  • #4
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,219 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    had to be stabled.
    i read that as 'had to be stabbed' which seemed a little OTT.


  • #5
    Bannasidhe
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    magicbastarder wrote: »
    i read that as 'had to be stabbed' which seemed a little OTT.

    I'm keeping that as an option for some other threads.


  • #6
    nozzferrahhtoo
    Registered Users Posts: 9,336 ✭✭✭nozzferrahhtoo


    magicbastarder wrote: »
    i read that as 'had to be stabbed' which seemed a little OTT.

    So on one thread people needed to be impregnated, and another stabbed.

    For a forum that has become very quite of late, it's getting vicious in here :)


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  • #7
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,395 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Hardly worth noting in the continuing trainwreck which is the USA these days, but recently, one Mark Grenon, a christian fndamentalist based in Florida, seemingly wrote to Mafia Don telling him that you could cure covid using bleach. Shortly after, #45 did his infamous press conference when he touted bleach injections and people shining lights inside them.

    https://www.miaminewtimes.com/news/florida-church-leader-selling-bleach-as-coronavirus-cure-wrote-trump-11628259
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/24/revealed-leader-group-peddling-bleach-cure-lobbied-trump-coronavirus

    While the FDA has warned people off drinking bleach since at least 2019, people in the US do seem to have been calling poison control centers in increased numbers since the start of March.


  • #8
    nozzferrahhtoo
    Registered Users Posts: 9,336 ✭✭✭nozzferrahhtoo


    https://www.picpasteplus.com/v.php?i=1167850c17

    I always struggle to show the image, rather than the link, on this site. What am I doing wrong :) If I wrap the above in IMG tags, it just comes up blank.


  • #9
    Odhinn
    Registered Users Posts: 7,944 ✭✭✭Odhinn


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    I'm keeping that as an option for some other threads.




    ...shouldn't the thread be a sticky?


  • #10
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,705 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »
    https://www.picpasteplus.com/v.php?i=1167850c17

    I always struggle to show the image, rather than the link, on this site. What am I doing wrong :) If I wrap the above in IMG tags, it just comes up blank.

    That particular site is designed to thwart direct linking of pictures. Workaround is to capture the screen, save it locally, attach it to your post and IMG the attachment link, as shown below;

    511195.jpg


  • #11
    Bannasidhe
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Odhinn wrote: »
    ...shouldn't the thread be a sticky?

    Just checking if anyone was paying attention.

    I did not wander off for a nap and forget to sticky it.
    *mental reservations*


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  • #12
    nozzferrahhtoo
    Registered Users Posts: 9,336 ✭✭✭nozzferrahhtoo


    So over here in Germany even many of those who disagree with the lock down (the usual arguments of course, of how much it's harming the economy and general well being) still at least FOLLOW the lock down. They realise that if we have to do it, we may as well do it right while we are doing it. No point buggering the economy and torpedoing the benefits of doing so too.

    So of course most get togethers over 2 people are banned and people generally are avoiding having them.

    Who goes to the Top German courts to get an exception to this because their little get togethers are more important than everyone elses, or the well being of peoples health or the economy? The religious of course.

    And they got granted it. Specifically a Muslim Group in Lower Saxony who want to hold prayers for Ramadan. Apprently the court also added that the infringement of religious rights was "particularly large with respect to the Friday prayers during Ramadan". If everyones religious practices are being curtailed due to the lock down, why is it particularly large for any one specific practice of any one religion? Seems as odd to me as that time the Irish Government granted exemptions to some Jews because the Leaving Certificate exams fell on their personal Sabbath.

    Among the promises/concessions they made in order to make their little get together safer? Well apparently they promise not to sing. :-|

    Read me saying that last line in the same tone of voice and face Dave Allen delivered the line "And for your added safety when you are in the indian ocean, they give you a whistle".


  • #13
    Odhinn
    Registered Users Posts: 7,944 ✭✭✭Odhinn


    Bit disgraceful this actually occurred let alone having to go to a court over it.


    A mother has welcomed a ruling that her son's primary school discriminated against him by rewarding his classmates with homework passes for participating in a first communion choir ceremony.
    She has told RTÉ News that she really hopes the ruling will "change things for children here who are not Catholic".
    The Workplace Relations Commission found that Yellow Furze Primary School in County Meath was wrong to incentivise attendance at a Catholic ceremony in such a way, and it awarded €5,000 to the child.
    https://www.rte.ie/news/education/2020/0501/1136104-discrimination-primary-school/


  • #14
    Odhinn
    Registered Users Posts: 7,944 ✭✭✭Odhinn


    Bit of good news -


    Sudan looks set to outlaw female genital mutilation (FGM), in a significant move welcomed by campaigners.
    Anyone found carrying out FGM will face up to three years in prison, according to a document seen by the Guardian.
    The council of ministers approved the new law on 22 April, but it still needs to be passed by members of the sovereign council, which was created following the ousting of former dictator Omar al-Bashir.
    Amira Azhary, from the National Council for Child Welfare and a campaigner for the Saleema initiative, which campaigns for an end to the practice, said: “We expect that the law will be passed by the sovereign council and if that happens, it will be an expression of the political will in this country.”
    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/may/01/sudan-to-outlaw-female-genital-mutilation-fgm?CMP=fb_gu&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook&fbclid=IwAR2nL1ShYWsI9GP0Prv-TLuN9fXtdT9t5wJYbYlU30RIiZm_0Goa7o5ESpE#Echobox=1588346324


    A start at least.


  • #15
    Odhinn
    Registered Users Posts: 7,944 ✭✭✭Odhinn


    Gobshite removed from his platform. Not that that will stop him


    Facebook has taken down the official page of conspiracy theorist David Icke for publishing "health misinformation that could cause physical harm".
    Mr Icke has made several false claims about coronavirus, such as suggesting 5G mobile phone networks are linked to the spread of the virus.
    In one video, he suggested a Jewish group was behind the virus.
    Following the ban, his Twitter account posted: "Fascist Facebook deletes David Icke - the elite are TERRIFIED."
    Facebook said in a statement: "We have removed this Page for repeatedly violating our policies on harmful misinformation''.
    https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-52501453


  • #16
    Odhinn
    Registered Users Posts: 7,944 ✭✭✭Odhinn


    Back seat poping from benny -


    The former pope Benedict XVI has accused opponents of wanting to silence him, while associating gay marriage with the Antichrist and attacking humanist ideologies in an authorised biography published in Germany.
    The 93-year-old, whose original name is Joseph Ratzinger, said in Benedict XVI – A Life he had fallen victim to a “malignant distortion of reality” in reactions to his interventions in theological debates.
    He said: “The spectacle of reactions coming from German theology is so misguided and ill-willed that I would prefer not to speak of it.”
    The former pope, who dramatically resigned in 2013, was especially criticised for a 2018 text that was considered critical of the Jewish faith. “I would rather not analyse the actual reasons why people want to silence my voice,” Benedict said in the book.
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/04/ex-pope-benedict-xvi-accuses-opponents-of-wanting-to-silence-him?CMP=fb_gu&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook&fbclid=IwAR1BFEm_w3Z6mzu1pWxN21MzCZsz_yyorAOcXSoMy_uV4hKR7XMthBgMfY0#Echobox=1588600194


  • #17
    Hector Savage
    Registered Users Posts: 8,810 ✭✭✭Hector Savage


    So I see Scotland has reintroduced blasphemy laws - frightening ...


  • #18
    Bannasidhe
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Hector Savage wrote: »
    So I see Scotland has reintroduced blasphemy laws - frightening ...

    Have you a link for that?

    All I can find says a bill has been introduced to decriminalise blasphemy..

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/apr/24/blasphemy-to-be-decriminalised-in-scottish-hate-bill


  • #19
    Hector Savage
    Registered Users Posts: 8,810 ✭✭✭Hector Savage


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    Have you a link for that?

    All I can find says a bill has been introduced to decriminalise blasphemy..

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/apr/24/blasphemy-to-be-decriminalised-in-scottish-hate-bill

    There is "hate speech" laws in there and we all know what that means.
    Who defines the hate ?
    Here is the Scottish justice minister

    https://twitter.com/HumzaYousaf/status/1257348838521802752?s=20

    "Islamaphobia" is a made up bull**** term to silence critisism of Islam.
    On one hand it says it gets rid of blasphemy sure - for all other religions, except that special one which no one can say anything negative about.


  • #20
    Bannasidhe
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Hector Savage wrote: »
    There is "hate speech" laws in there and we all know what that means.
    Who defines the hate ?
    Here is the Scottish justice minister

    https://twitter.com/HumzaYousaf/status/1257348838521802752?s=20

    "Islamaphobia" is a made up bull**** term to silence critisism of Islam.
    On one hand it says it gets rid of blasphemy sure - for all other religions, except that special one which no one can say anything negative about.

    Ah, I see.

    The SNP have introduced a bill to remove 'blasphemy' form the statue books but will have 'hate crime' legislation which according to the Scottish Justice Minister
    Justice minister Humza Yousaf said the law would be modernised and also cover discrimination against age, disability, race, religion and sexual orientation.
    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/apr/24/blasphemy-to-be-decriminalised-in-scottish-hate-bill

    You have extrapolated this to mean it's a law that places the religion of Islam off limits and your proof is a tweet referencing a vocal anti-Scottish independence/SNP person or other.

    You do realise the same law would protect... oh...let's say Catholics from discrimination in areas that are Orange in terms of religion/politics,like parts of Glasgow?

    It does not say you cannot criticise a religion - it says you cannot get your hat and sash on and start hating on someone because they are of a particular religion.


  • #21
    Hector Savage
    Registered Users Posts: 8,810 ✭✭✭Hector Savage


    We all know it will be used to stop any criticism of Islam - who defines it btw ?

    Who gets to define this "hate speech" ?


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  • #22
    Timberrrrrrrr
    Registered Users Posts: 25,395 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    Hector Savage wrote: »
    We all know it will be used to stop any criticism of Islam - who defines it btw ?

    Who gets to define this "hate speech" ?

    No!

    This is just your claim and you are using this to fit your agenda, anyone can tell from a quick glance at your posting history exactly what agenda I am referring to.


  • #23
    Bannasidhe
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Hector Savage wrote: »
    We all know it will be used to stop any criticism of Islam - who defines it btw ?

    Who gets to define this "hate speech" ?

    The legislators write the Bill.
    The Parliament votes on the Bill.
    If passed it is enacted.
    Then it is up to the Courts to interpret it.

    Same as every, single, other, piece of legislation.

    Are you claiming the Scottish (devolved) government, parliament, and legal profession are now all so in thrall that they would consider the word 'religion' in hate crime legislation to mean Islam and Islam only?


  • #24
    Odhinn
    Registered Users Posts: 7,944 ✭✭✭Odhinn


    Hector Savage wrote: »
    There is "hate speech" laws in there and we all know what that means.
    Hector Savage wrote: »
    We all know it


    "we" don't.


    Hector Savage wrote: »
    "Islamaphobia" is a made up bull**** term to silence critisism of Islam.
    .............




    No, it's term used to describe the attitudes of those with a deep and irrational hatred of Islam and - especially - muslims.


  • #25
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,395 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    Are you claiming the Scottish (devolved) government, parliament, and legal profession are now all so in thrall that they would consider the word 'religion' in hate crime legislation to mean Islam and Islam only?
    In the strange world of the professionally-propagandized, yes - you've hit the nail on the head :rolleyes:
    Odhinn wrote: »
    Hector Savage wrote: »
    There is "hate speech" laws in there and we all know what that means.
    "we" don't.
    The "we all know XXX" phrase is one of Trump's more commonly-deployed tropes - deferring to the listener to fill in the gaps while allowing the speaker to deny responsibility for whatever the speaker dreams up. It's a fairly transparent debating tactic, it has to be said.


  • #26
    Hector Savage
    Registered Users Posts: 8,810 ✭✭✭Hector Savage


    Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »
    No!

    This is just your claim and you are using this to fit your agenda, anyone can tell from a quick glance at your posting history exactly what agenda I am referring to.

    agenda ? which agenda ?


  • #27
    Hector Savage
    Registered Users Posts: 8,810 ✭✭✭Hector Savage


    Odhinn wrote: »
    Bit of good news -




    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/may/01/sudan-to-outlaw-female-genital-mutilation-fgm?CMP=fb_gu&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook&fbclid=IwAR2nL1ShYWsI9GP0Prv-TLuN9fXtdT9t5wJYbYlU30RIiZm_0Goa7o5ESpE#Echobox=1588346324


    A start at least.

    Good news ? for you really ???


  • #28
    Pherekydes
    Registered Users Posts: 16,109 ✭✭✭✭Pherekydes


    Hector Savage wrote: »
    Good news ? for you really ???

    For any feeling, thinking, empathetic human being really.


  • #29
    Odhinn
    Registered Users Posts: 7,944 ✭✭✭Odhinn


    Hector Savage wrote: »
    Good news ? for you really ???






    ...a state ending, or at least trying to end, female genital mutilation is "good news", I would have thought. Why the "?"


  • #30
    Hector Savage
    Registered Users Posts: 8,810 ✭✭✭Hector Savage


    Odhinn wrote: »
    Back seat poping from benny -




    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/04/ex-pope-benedict-xvi-accuses-opponents-of-wanting-to-silence-him?CMP=fb_gu&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook&fbclid=IwAR1BFEm_w3Z6mzu1pWxN21MzCZsz_yyorAOcXSoMy_uV4hKR7XMthBgMfY0#Echobox=1588600194
    Odhinn wrote: »
    ...a state ending, or at least trying to end, female genital mutilation is "good news", I would have thought. Why the "?"

    Since you constantly defend the ideology otherwise ....

    UNCIVIL TEXT DELETED


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  • #31
    Hector Savage
    Registered Users Posts: 8,810 ✭✭✭Hector Savage


    https://metro.co.uk/video/man-mocks-muslims-pretending-pray-aladdin-1921152/

    Police investigated this, if this guy was slagging off any other religion it would be grand, but even "liberals" were looking for him to be jailed for this.

    This is the kind of shyte that will be defined as "hate speech" ...


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