Dublin - Significant reduction in rents coming?

Ozark707 · 29-04-2020 3:40pm

Data for Q4 2019....rents were already dropping QoQ

Dublin saw the lowest annual increase in rents since 2013, with prices up 5 per cent to €1,716 per month on average. Similar to the national picture, rents declined by almost 2 per cent compared to the previous quarter.

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/rents-in-the-state-rise-at-slowest-rate-in-six-years-1.4234349

Ray Palmer · 29-04-2020 3:55pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Ridiculous opinion. I'd say you're very welcoming to new ideas and approaches.

I work in theatre, we start with a basic concept, and stretch it and stretch it and investigate it before committing it to paper. Maybe you should be open to exploration instead of shutting down debating an issue before it's expanded?

Anyway, as has been pointed out, homes can be rented out by old folk in nursing homes, however you say there's no financial incentive to, or maybe the families want to move in?

Nothing stopping their family moving in, and if it were to stay vacant, where a tax would be charged, surely that is a financial incentive to rent it out?

You didn't answer my last question btw.

Well I work in business and deal with tax. when somebody proposes a solution they are expected to have thought out most of the obvious issues along with taking questions from more experienced people. This saves time so as not to constantly bring up the same old "new idea".

I am not shuting down debate because you aren't debating. Being annoyed at being asked basic questions is not debating. Is there a point exploring if you keep telling people they are exploring wrong?

The sistution you work in is a creative one where the idea is to free flow ideas and be creative. That isn't how business or the rest of the world works. When you deal with financial transactions for many different situations it gives you knowledge of how the world works.

You don't understand why people don't rent out the homes of people who go into care homes.
1. It may be temporary
2. All their possessions are in the property
3. Any money from rent goes to the state the people involved in renting it get nothing
4. Any items broken have to be fixed
5. The tenants have to be given notice before inheritance can be dealt with

There are 5 reason why they don't and those issues have further offshoots.

Happy to debate and open to new ideas, yours isn't new and there are a list of legal, moral and constitutional issues that you need to consider. You have at least 5 things to think about for one aspect of your idea. Stretch them out and put them on paper

29-04-2020 4:21pm

Ray Palmer wrote: »

Well I work in business and deal with tax. when somebody proposes a solution they are expected to have thought out most of the obvious issues along with taking questions from more experienced people. This saves time so as not to constantly bring up the same old "new idea".

I am not shuting down debate because you aren't debating. Being annoyed at being asked basic questions is not debating. Is there a point exploring if you keep telling people they are exploring wrong?

The sistution you work in is a creative one where the idea is to free flow ideas and be creative. That isn't how business or the rest of the world works. When you deal with financial transactions for many different situations it gives you knowledge of how the world works.

You don't understand why people don't rent out the homes of people who go into care homes.
1. It may be temporary
2. All their possessions are in the property
3. Any money from rent goes to the state the people involved in renting it get nothing
4. Any items broken have to be fixed
5. The tenants have to be given notice before inheritance can be dealt with

There are 5 reason why they don't and those issues have further offshoots.

Happy to debate and open to new ideas, yours isn't new and there are a list of legal, moral and constitutional issues that you need to consider. You have at least 5 things to think about for one aspect of your idea. Stretch them out and put them on paper

Would I be correct in saying that you think creative ideas won't answer the housing dilemma?

You still haven't answered the questions I asked you btw.

Topgear on Dave · 29-04-2020 4:31pm

A neighbour here rented out his mothers house while she was in a nursing home.

The tenant stopped paying rent and had to be brought to the district court and threatened with jail (twice I think) to get him out. :pac:

It cost the owner thousands of euros, maybe over a year in time and made the local paper.

Is it any wonder LLs in my estate have been selling up to beat the band.

shenanagans · 29-04-2020 4:49pm

Ray Palmer wrote: »

Well I work in business and deal with tax. when somebody proposes a solution they are expected to have thought out most of the obvious issues along with taking questions from more experienced people. This saves time so as not to constantly bring up the same old "new idea".

I am not shuting down debate because you aren't debating. Being annoyed at being asked basic questions is not debating. Is there a point exploring if you keep telling people they are exploring wrong?

The sistution you work in is a creative one where the idea is to free flow ideas and be creative. That isn't how business or the rest of the world works. When you deal with financial transactions for many different situations it gives you knowledge of how the world works.

You don't understand why people don't rent out the homes of people who go into care homes.
1. It may be temporary
2. All their possessions are in the property
3. Any money from rent goes to the state the people involved in renting it get nothing
4. Any items broken have to be fixed
5. The tenants have to be given notice before inheritance can be dealt with

There are 5 reason why they don't and those issues have further offshoots.

Happy to debate and open to new ideas, yours isn't new and there are a list of legal, moral and constitutional issues that you need to consider. You have at least 5 things to think about for one aspect of your idea. Stretch them out and put them on paper

6. Owner unlikely in be good health so can't maintain property and deal with any issues that arise. Its fine saying let family deal with it but I won't want to rent out my parents home......what if tenant does pay rent etc it refuses to leave if they need house back. Comes back again to **** regulation for Landlord.

Claw Hammer · 29-04-2020 5:33pm

Ray Palmer wrote: »

Sorry you are correct they can rent them out. Absolutely no incentive to do so and many disadvantages so legal advice and financial advise says it is a bad idea. Any rent money is taken by the state and the still take a portion of the property sale.
You can have that view all you like but relatives may want to move into the home they grew up in. Try and get that through the dail would be impossible.

If people want state subsidised care in a nursing home they will have no choice. There's nothing at the moment to stop the relatives paying the 22 1/2% at the time of the eventual sale so why not do it after 2 years.

The Student · 29-04-2020 8:22pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Owning a home is a privilege, as far as I'm aware, no one has the right to a second home. (Or even a first home, legally speaking)

Sorry I take issue with this. Owning a home is a right if you paid for inherited it. If you have a second, third or even fourth house that you paid for inherited then that's your right.

Eric Cartman · 29-04-2020 10:15pm

Topgear on Dave wrote: »

A neighbour here rented out his mothers house while she was in a nursing home.

The tenant stopped paying rent and had to be brought to the district court and threatened with jail (twice I think) to get him out. :pac:

It cost the owner thousands of euros, maybe over a year in time and made the local paper.

Is it any wonder LLs in my estate have been selling up to beat the band.

Its shocking. I have clients who had multiple (say 3-5 properties) a decade ago who have all either left or are holding on to the last property and still having heartbreak with them.

JimmyVik · 30-04-2020 8:55am

Deleted User wrote: »

Would I be correct in saying that you think creative ideas won't answer the housing dilemma?

You still haven't answered the questions I asked you btw.

Ray has asked some sensible questions there dont you think?
I can think of at least 20 more when you get round to his ones

Esse85 · 30-04-2020 9:07am

Original post "they are going in with offers for places well below asking and getting accepted."

Is this still the case?

30-04-2020 9:34am

I'd love to know how long Landlords will leave lodgings empty because people can't afford them. How long will it be until they reduce the rents to something manageable for the majority?

We could have double the homeless population soon, whilst we have more than enough houses to home everybody.

It's already the case that we have we more homes than homeless.

Which is pretty disturbing and sick.

Hubertj · 30-04-2020 9:41am

Deleted User wrote: »

I'd love to know how long Landlords will leave lodgings empty because people can't afford them. How long will it be until they reduce the rents to something manageable for the majority?

We could have double the homeless population soon, whilst we have more than enough houses to home everybody.

It's already the case that we have we more homes than homeless.

Which is pretty disturbing and sick.

there aren't enough houses for everyone. Why are you saying this? Are you lying or ignorant of the facts?

Zenify · 30-04-2020 9:48am

Hubertj wrote: »

there aren't enough houses for everyone. Why are you saying this? Are you lying or ignorant of the facts?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.dublinlive.ie/news/dublin-news/hundreds-plush-properties-laying-vacant-17800453.amp

"The cost to rent one of the luxury units is between €3,850 and €5,500 and the apartments have been available since 2018"

Ray Palmer · 30-04-2020 9:51am

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Would I be correct in saying that you think creative ideas won't answer the housing dilemma?

You still haven't answered the questions I asked you btw.

Informed ideas can be creative as they like. The same ideas that have been suggested before isn't creative it is simply ill informed.

Is this the question you claim I didn't answer? I did answer it

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I thought this was a discussion forum, or would you just like fully formed ideas where people don't want to change anything? :Rolleyesbtw.

You haven't answered my questions and aren't debating any of the points but insisted you wanted to debate.

30-04-2020 9:52am

Hubertj wrote: »

there aren't enough houses for everyone. Why are you saying this? Are you lying or ignorant of the facts?

Meanwhile, 198,358 homes lie empty in Ireland. In Cork, there are 269 people homeless, and 21,287 vacant units and in Dublin, 3,247 people homeless and 35,293 vacant homes.

https://www.thejournal.ie/housing-crisis-dublin-3430403-Jun2017/?amp=1

https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2018/nov/29/empty-dublin-housing-crisis-airbnb-homelessness-landlords

So they're both wrong?

Ray Palmer · 30-04-2020 9:57am

Claw Hammer wrote: »

If people want state subsidised care in a nursing home they will have no choice. There's nothing at the moment to stop the relatives paying the 22 1/2% at the time of the eventual sale so why not do it after 2 years.

Fine that is what you think. That isn't how the rules currently stand. I was pointing out how it stands now.
Your idea doesn't consider price fluctuations over the period if time. I put up a 5 point list why it is difficult and not done by people. You can propose what you like but those facts don't change and you would have to address at least them before your policy suggestion. I doubt you would get public support attacking the elderly and inheritance

overkill602 · 30-04-2020 10:02am

Deleted User wrote: »

I'd love to know how long Landlords will leave lodgings empty because people can't afford them. How long will it be until they reduce the rents to something manageable for the majority?

We could have double the homeless population soon, whilst we have more than enough houses to home everybody.

It's already the case that we have we more homes than homeless.

Which is pretty disturbing and sick.

Houses bought privately have a right of ownership in our constitution and are not an asset of the state to distribute to those who expect it for free.

Its is the states obligation to house the homeless by providing homes forever.
What is a manageable rent when risk of non payment is accommodated in tenant protections?

We have state subsidized accommodation shown in many reports in arrears.
(6) to another poster, people residing in nursing homes would have older houses and might require modernization at further expense to the owner.
It not a homeless crisis it is a right to a home crisis.

tabby aspreme · 30-04-2020 10:13am

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I'd love to know how long Landlords will leave lodgings empty because people can't afford them. How long will it be until they reduce the rents to something manageable for the majority?

We could have double the homeless population soon, whilst we have more than enough houses to home everybody.

It's already the case that we have we more homes than homeless.

Which is pretty disturbing and sick.

The landlord's who were involved in short term rental, and who's properties are now empty, will probably leave them that way until they sell them, or the demand picks up again, rather than get involved in the hassle and uncertainty of regular rentals.

JimmyVik · 30-04-2020 10:16am

Deleted User wrote: »

https://www.thejournal.ie/housing-crisis-dublin-3430403-Jun2017/?amp=1

https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2018/nov/29/empty-dublin-housing-crisis-airbnb-homelessness-landlords

So they're both wrong?

When you put ideas on an idea board does it end up looking like a bowl of spaghetti?

Hubertj · 30-04-2020 10:19am

Deleted User wrote: »

https://www.thejournal.ie/housing-crisis-dublin-3430403-Jun2017/?amp=1

https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2018/nov/29/empty-dublin-housing-crisis-airbnb-homelessness-landlords

So they're both wrong?

i would take the CSO statistics over a 3 year old journal article. in addition, if you bothered looking into it you will find there are nowhere near than number of vcant properties. it was addressed on another thread few weeks ago.

JimmyVik · 30-04-2020 10:22am

Hubertj wrote: »

i would take the CSO statistics over a 3 year old journal article. in addition, if you bothered looking into it you will find there are nowhere near than number of vcant properties. it was addressed on another thread few weeks ago.

I recently found out that I am living in a vacant property

Hubertj · 30-04-2020 10:29am

Zenify wrote: »

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.dublinlive.ie/news/dublin-news/hundreds-plush-properties-laying-vacant-17800453.amp

"The cost to rent one of the luxury units is between €3,850 and €5,500 and the apartments have been available since 2018"

whats your point? a few luxury over priced apartments will solve the housing crisis? Cop yourself on.

Zenify · 30-04-2020 10:36am

Hubertj wrote: »

whats your point? a few luxury over priced apartments will solve the housing crisis? Cop yourself on.

My point, to spell it out for you. There is a lack of housing, a major one. But if people cant afford the few houses that are there, prices will drop. If houses weren't even achieving certain prices before Covid-19 they certainly wont after wage cuts and high unemployment. You seem to only like facts that agree with you. You should open your mind up a little.

Ray Palmer · 30-04-2020 11:44am

Zenify wrote: »

My point, to spell it out for you. There is a lack of housing, a major one. But if people cant afford the few houses that are there, prices will drop. If houses weren't even achieving certain prices before Covid-19 they certainly wont after wage cuts and high unemployment. You seem to only like facts that agree with you. You should open your mind up a little.

Simply isn't how supply and demand works. You are also ignoring the rent allowance system. If there is a shortage of supply but still high demand prices go up. You are assuming everybody becomes unemployed and will get a wage cut. I can assure you that certain wages are going up right now as there is a lack of certain workers and they can't fill the roles or get foreign workers in. I have had job offers paying 50% more than I currently earn. They barely want to interview people and are offering jobs based on CVs.

There will be a dividing line for those with income but as there isn't enough property to rent those with jobs can keep renting. Those without will have to figure something out because landlords are not social welfare. The government will have to figure out something or rent allowance bills will sky rocket.

I will happily let my tenants leave and have no worries about new tenants. I actually want them to leave in one property.

Dav010 · 30-04-2020 12:28pm

Zenify wrote: »

My point, to spell it out for you. There is a lack of housing, a major one. But if people cant afford the few houses that are there, prices will drop. If houses weren't even achieving certain prices before Covid-19 they certainly wont after wage cuts and high unemployment. You seem to only like facts that agree with you. You should open your mind up a little.

I linked to a segment by the business editor on the Last Word a couple of weeks ago where he spoke about high price rental properties. One in particular in the IFSC which was only 50% occupied at a time when demand was at its highest. The owners would prefer to have an empty apartment than rent it for a lower price, knowing that they would be locked in indefinitely by rent cap.

Also, a lot of developments are forward financed based on achieving a minimum rental rate, so they will wait this out. The demand will be there because virtually all building has stopped, the primary variable now will be people’s ability to afford rents. That in turn depends on how well and how quickly the economy recovers when businesses start opening again.

This is not like the last recession where there was an abundance of property, mass emigration and unemployment. There is not enough property, no emigration and up to a couple of weeks ago, full employment. Time will tell how the changing economic and social landscape will change the rental industry.

Claw Hammer · 30-04-2020 12:33pm

Dav010 wrote: »

I

This is not like the last recession where there was an abundance of property, mass emigration and unemployment. There is not enough property, no emigration and up to a couple of weeks ago, full employment. Time will tell how the changing economic and social landscape will change the rental industry.

There may be no emigration, but there will also be very little immigration. The likelihood now is that there will be very few foreign students coming to Ireland this autumn. There will also be far fewer staff working in hotels pubs and restaurants this autumn. At that the fact that there will be fewer tourists the likelihood is that the autumn will see substantial changes in the rental market.

Dav010 · 30-04-2020 12:44pm

Claw Hammer wrote: »

There may be no emigration, but there will also be very little immigration. The likelihood now is that there will be very few foreign students coming to Ireland this autumn. There will also be far fewer staff working in hotels pubs and restaurants this autumn. At that the fact that there will be fewer tourists the likelihood is that the autumn will see substantial changes in the rental market.

Agreed, there is now even more incentive for small landlords to exit the market if possible.

Tazz T · 30-04-2020 1:43pm

Problem with 90% of these vacant properties is that they're owned by cuckoo funds (now the biggest landlords in the state). Most aren't bothered whether they're rented out or remain vacant - they're more interested in capital growth. If it gets rented out at these inflated rates, it's a bonus.

The same applies to commercial properties in these same estates which remain empty eternally due to above market rents. The rents make them financially unviable as business premises.

It will be interesting to see what happens when these investment funds realise the market has peaked and property valuations in general start collapsing. My guess is they'll withdraw and look elsewhere, causing a complete crash in all sectors.

Graham · 30-04-2020 3:53pm

Tazz T wrote: »

Problem with 90% of these vacant properties is that they're owned by cuckoo funds

I don't think that's anywhere near accurate. Would be interested in seeing where you got that figure from.

30-04-2020 5:33pm

Tazz T wrote: »

Problem with 90% of these vacant properties is that they're owned by cuckoo funds (now the biggest landlords in the state). Most aren't bothered whether they're rented out or remain vacant - they're more interested in capital growth. If it gets rented out at these inflated rates, it's a bonus.

The same applies to commercial properties in these same estates which remain empty eternally due to above market rents. The rents make them financially unviable as business premises.

It will be interesting to see what happens when these investment funds realise the market has peaked and property valuations in general start collapsing. My guess is they'll withdraw and look elsewhere, causing a complete crash in all sectors.

Not sure where you get 90% from, but does strengthen the argument for a vacant property tax.

Dublin - Significant reduction in rents coming?

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