Bulgarian workers/Keelings - read OP (threadbans listed)

Scotty # · 28-04-2020 08:55AM

2u2me wrote: »

Instead of 40 hours its 48 hours.

They work a 6 day week. 6 x 8 = 48. They're paid a minimum of €10.10 per hour for each of these hours. (€484.80)

2u2me wrote: »

Instead of 1 toilet per room, 1 toilet per 2 rooms.

1st world problems eh? The planning regulations allow for one toilet per three occupants in this type of building. Keelings proposed ammendment was one toilet per four occupants. They have two to a room so one toilet for four occupants makes sense. I don't see it as excessive.

Incidentally, restaurant requiprments are two toilet per twenty five occupants. 1 male, 1 female. At your place of work, the requirment is one toilet per 20 staff.

2u2me wrote: »

I never knew just how many allowances we make for 'seasonal workers' in this country. We basically treat them like second class citizens.

What allowances do we make. They're covered by Irish employment laws and by all Irish laws, as are Keelings.

Alrigghtythen · 28-04-2020 09:18AM

How many sharing a bathroom in the private houses you rather they rent themselve? If it was a 4 bedroom house there may be 4 sharing and if a couple live there too that's 5. What sort of inhumane conditions is that to be living in?

And they'ed expected to pay for it too. OMG

maestroamado · 28-04-2020 09:42AM

I did not think this type of development be allowed in this country.
If people are sharing rooms and just one toilet/shower for 4 people €95 pw is excessive in my view.
If this is the accepted standard of accomodation on farm work the cost of same should be much much lower.
It also seems that the shower and toilet in same room.

I shared house with 3 others some years ago, we had separate shower and toilet and it was tricky in the morning.
We had to assign time for shower in the morning.

I was happy that things were reasonably ok once miinimum wage payment was confirmed.
The living area and cost of same have changed my view, maybe they will review and reduce cost of same...

Graham · 28-04-2020 09:46AM

maestroamado wrote: »

I was happy that things were reasonably ok once miinimum wage payment was confirmed.

The payslip posted earlier looks like it's a couple of years old. The same payslip this year would be

€2,230 / month gross.

€574 above the monthly minimum wage

7.1 times the Bulgarian minimum wage

€160 more than a newly qualified staff nurse

*Above ignores bonuses for exceeding minimum targets.

krissovo · 28-04-2020 09:54AM

maestroamado wrote: »

I did not think this type of development be allowed in this country.
If people are sharing rooms and just one toilet/shower for 4 people €95 pw is excessive in my view.
If this is the accepted standard of accomodation on farm work the cost of same should be much much lower.
It also seems that the shower and toilet in same room.

I shared house with 3 others some years ago, we had separate shower and toilet and it was tricky in the morning.
We had to assign time for shower in the morning.

I was happy that things were reasonably ok once miinimum wage payment was confirmed.
The living area and cost of same have changed my view, maybe they will review and reduce cost of same...

Last time I was in Bulgaria (7 years ago) the majority of toilets are outside in the suburbs, by choice I will add. On a couple of occasions I went to dinner at work colleagues houses and the toilets were outside or the muslim hole in the floor type. In one house they even had an area allocated outside for doing your business "Au naturel" or as nature intended if you prefered so I would guess for the majority of workers the arrangements are fine.

13 euro a day for a roof over your head also seams reasonable to me, better than hostel rates and better living conditions.

maestroamado · 28-04-2020 10:07AM

Graham wrote: »

The payslip posted earlier looks like it's a couple of years old. The same payslip this year would be
€2,230 / month gross.

€574 above the monthly minimum wage

7.1 times the Bulgarian minimum wage

€160 more than a newly qualified staff nurse

*Above ignores bonuses for exceeding minimum targets.

You just pick out the line that suits your agenda.
My post was about the excessive coat of their rooms.

This is Ireland...You expect them to pay Irish rents for shared rooms.
Your the accommodation person and you think this is ok.
I await with interest how you can justify this cost.
I am sure someone will come up with room dimensions.

I wonder where do they cook and eat...

maestroamado · 28-04-2020 10:32AM

krissovo wrote: »

Last time I was in Bulgaria (7 years ago) the majority of toilets are outside in the suburbs, by choice I will add. On a couple of occasions I went to dinner at work colleagues houses and the toilets were outside or the muslim hole in the floor type. In one house they even had an area allocated outside for doing your business "Au naturel" or as nature intended if you prefered so I would guess for the majority of workers the arrangements are fine.

13 euro a day for a roof over your head also seams reasonable to me, better than hostel rates and better living conditions.

Yes that's fine in Bulgaria and i have being there years ago.
€95 pw is more than what people who have their own room in houses around the country.
You have typical Irish attitude, its good enough for them and we will get as much as we can out of the.
I think the accommodation is fine as they happy to be there. The cost is excessive and cannot be justified in my opinion.

Can you tell me anyone in this country who spends 25% of their wages on a shared room?

Alrigghtythen · 28-04-2020 10:42AM

Graham wrote: »

The payslip posted earlier looks like it's a couple of years old. The same payslip this year would be
€2,230 / month gross.

€574 above the monthly minimum wage

7.1 times the Bulgarian minimum wage

€160 more than a newly qualified staff nurse

*Above ignores bonuses for exceeding minimum targets.

They earn more than a newly qualified nurse!

Scotty # · 28-04-2020 10:43AM

maestroamado wrote: »

This is Ireland...You expect them to pay Irish rents for shared rooms.
Your the accommodation person and you think this is ok.
I await with interest how you can justify this cost.

The €95 seems to also cover utilities and travel expenses (company bus).

Just with a quick look on datf, the cheapest I can find is a two bed appartment in Ballymun for €1500/month. That's about €93/person/week based on 4 sharing. But then you have all utilities and travel on top of that.

All in all, €95/week doesn't appear that excessive.

If you add 900 people to the local rent market all of a sudden, you're going to see a pretty hefty spike in rates.

krissovo · 28-04-2020 10:46AM

maestroamado wrote: »

You have typical Irish attitude, its good enough for them and we will get as much as we can out of the.

Thats certainly not the attitude I have, the attitude I have is that I have been in their position and picked fruit across Europe. They appear to have quite a good deal from what I know.

I have picked grapes in France and stayed in a barn and slept on a 3 high bunk bed and had access to a porta potty toilet. Portugal was similar, Germany was better and I stayed in student blocks but was shared rooms. At the end of the days hard work all we were interested in was a good feed, a beer and then somewhere to sleep. I paid about about 40% of the wage I earnt for that privilege but it was my choice to do it.

2u2me · 28-04-2020 11:24AM

I don't know where everyone is getting 1 toilet per 4 people. Aren't the rooms up to 4 people each and 1 toilet per 2 rooms is 1 toilet per 8 people.

Here's the PDFs for the planning permissions http://documents.fingalcoco.ie/NorthgateIM.WebSearch/Results.aspx

Scotty # · 28-04-2020 11:48AM

2u2me wrote: »

I don't know where everyone is getting 1 toilet per 4 people. Aren't the rooms up to 4 people each and 1 toilet per 2 rooms is 1 toilet per 8 people.

The pdfs about the planning permission have been taken down since last night.. what the hell?

I believe the 'four to a room' is only in their current lodgings while in quarantine. It's normally two to a room.

2u2me · 28-04-2020 11:57AM

Scotty # wrote: »

The €95 seems to also cover utilities and travel expenses (company bus).

Just with a quick look on datf, the cheapest I can find is a two bed appartment in Ballymun for €1500/month. That's about €93/person/week based on 4 sharing. But then you have all utilities and travel on top of that.

All in all, €95/week doesn't appear that excessive.

If you add 900 people to the local rent market all of a sudden, you're going to see a pretty hefty spike in rates.

There is no planning permission for the 'bedspaces' to be rented to the public. They only have permission to be used by farm hands.
Shouldn't this make it a whole lot cheaper?

Scotty # · 28-04-2020 12:11PM

2u2me wrote: »

There is no planning permission for the 'bedspaces' to be rented to the public. They only have permission to be used by farm hands.
Shouldn't this make it a whole lot cheaper?

I have no idea what the workers will be charged for the 'on site' accommodation. The €95 is for off site accomodation. Both the Unite guy and the Reddit guy were staying in Hazelwood Village where incidentally, all rooms are ensuite.

2u2me · 28-04-2020 12:13PM

Scotty # wrote: »

I have no idea what the workers will be charged for the 'on site' accommodation. The €95 is for off site accomodation. Both the Unite guy and the Reddit guy were staying in Hazelwood Village where incidentally, all rooms are ensuite.

Why would the planning authorities make this condition? (That the bedspaces can not be rented out to the public, only to farm workers)

Scotty # · 28-04-2020 12:21PM

2u2me wrote: »

Why would the planning authorities make this condition? (That the bedspaces can not be rented out to the public, only to farm workers)

They just put it in for clarity. The planning permission is for accomodation for staff, not for commercial accommodation.

2u2me · 28-04-2020 12:31PM

Scotty # wrote: »

They just put it in for clarity. The planning permission is for accomodation for staff, not for commercial accommodation.

Yes; but why? Isn't clear to me

STB. · 28-04-2020 12:38PM

Scotty # wrote: »

I have no idea what the workers will be charged for the 'on site' accommodation. The €95 is for off site accomodation. Both the Unite guy and the Reddit guy were staying in Hazelwood Village where incidentally, all rooms are ensuite.

So they were not staying at the on site accommodation at the Brazil complex ?

Graham · 28-04-2020 12:39PM

Alrigghtythen wrote: »

They earn more than a newly qualified nurse!

That's the MINIMUM.

I doubt the unions will be showing payslips for any of the workers that pick above the minimums.

I see we've now moved onto being outraged at €13 a day for accommodation/transport and the lack of en-suite facilities. :rolleyes:

STB. · 28-04-2020 12:45PM

Graham wrote: »

The payslip posted earlier looks like it's a couple of years old. The same payslip this year would be
€2,230 / month gross.

€574 above the monthly minimum wage

7.1 times the Bulgarian minimum wage

€160 more than a newly qualified staff nurse

*Above ignores bonuses for exceeding minimum targets.

It's from last year. The min wage rate is stated by Ogle as €9.55 per hour at the time.

That lads payslip has 48 hours BASIC worked at €381.33 THAT equates to €7.94 per hour. So his basic is set below the minimum wage. WHY ?

He then has an additional 2.25 hours Overtime for €23.70.

There is then an Min Wage Adjustment of 82 (Why ?)

All in all €480 odd BEFORE tax/prsi for a 50 hour week. Minus Tax@20% and PRSI and Minus €95 for accom. What does that leave ?

Their hours vary from 30 -45 hours according to the video. Exceeds what minimum targets. They are paid by the hour. Stop stating what isn't there.

Scotty # wrote: »

They work a 6 day week. 6 x 8 = 48. They're paid a minimum of €10.10 per hour for each of these hours. (€484.80)

WRONG. Their hours vary according to Ogle video.

Scotty # wrote: »

This is a grossly misleading statement.

The Unite rep shows his payslip, which clearly shows his wage was €486.98 gross. He then had €19.48 PRSI deducted. No PAYE deduction as he's not liable for any. So his actual take home was €467.50.

WRONG. How would he not be liable for Tax ?? How ?

Scotty # wrote: »

This includes a min wage adjustment of almost €90 because he didn't pick nearly enough to bring him up to min wage per hour for the hours he worked. This is also undoubtedly the reason he was shown the gate after 8 weeks.

WRONG. They are paid by the hour not by weight (I had to correct you earlier on this in this thread where you linked an article but didn't bother reading it). Stop making stuff up. His basic is working out at €7.94 per hour for the number of hours he worked, that's why there is a minimum wage adjustment !

He was let go under the guise of there not being enough work as stated in the video (despite fresh staff being flown in after that). Nothing else like your personal commentary. Again stop making stuff up.

Bass Reeves · 28-04-2020 01:05PM

STB. wrote: »

It's from last year. The min wage rate is stated by Ogle as €9.55 per hour at the time.

That lads payslip has 48 hours BASIC worked at €381.33 THAT equates to €7.94 per hour. So his basic is set below the minimum wage. WHY ?

He then has an additional 2.25 hours Overtime for €23.70.

There is then an Min Wage Adjustment of 82 (Why ?)

All in all €480 odd BEFORE tax/prsi for a 50 hour week. Minus Tax@20% and PRSI and Minus €95 for accom. What does that leave ?

Their hours vary from 30 -45 hours according to the video. Exceeds what minimum targets. They are paid by the hour. Stop stating what isn't there.

You are paid a picking rate. If you fail to meet the minimum picking rate you pay is bought up to the minimum rate of pay. This lad was only hitting the mid 70s% wise of the picking rate. I think Keeling's stated that 70-80% hit the picking rate.

This lad was not so his pay was adjusted up to the minimum rate. Fir the first 13 weeks an employer can dismiss you without notice. Keeling's guarantee a minimum of 8weeks they got rid of him then and kept the workers hitting targets. If you look at the date on the payslip 9is the month or September he seemed to have been recruited late in the season so would have had a limited season anyway

STB. · 28-04-2020 01:15PM

Bass Reeves wrote: »

You are laid a picking rate. If you fail to meet the minimum picking rate you pay is bought up to the minimum rate of pay. This lad was only hitting the mid 70s% wise of the picking rate. I think Keeling's stated that 70-80% hit the picking rate.

This lad was not so his pay was adjusted up to the minimum rate. Fir the first 13 weeks an employer can dismiss you without notice. Keeling's guarantee a minimum of 8weeks they got rid of him then and kept the workers hitting targets. If you look at the date on the payslip 9is the month or September he seemed to have been recruited late in the season so would have had a limited season anyway

I perused the contract Ogle showed. I couldn't see anything about a picking rate. A picking rate ??

I also don't see anything in Irish employment law that states that you can pay anything other than the minimum hourly rate!

You can roughly tell by his PRSI contributions how many weeks he has been there. I cannot see a tax deduction.

He stated that there was not enough work after the 8th week and he was offered a job by the same agency in Scotland at his own air expense. Meanwhile more pickers were arriving from Bulgaria at that time (according to the interview).

That these workers in this industry are ponying up between €500 to €750 to the agency to work 12 week contracts (8 of which are on probation) with uncertainty of what happens after 8 weeks, seems all very sharp to me. Sure you would be afraid to challenge anything.

STB. · 28-04-2020 01:22PM

Scotty # wrote: »

They just put it in for clarity. The planning permission is for accomodation for staff, not for commercial accommodation.

No because they have an exemption because the standards fall outside what is commercially acceptable.

Graham wrote: »

That's the MINIMUM.

I doubt the unions will be showing payslips for any of the workers that pick above the minimums.

I see we've now moved onto being outraged at €13 a day for accommodation/transport and the lack of en-suite facilities.

Why don't you divide the number of hours worked into the total earned AFTER tax and do that comparison. Are you stating that qualified nurses are getting only the minimum wage. I'd stick to the accomodation forum Graham. Maths are not your strong point.

Bass Reeves · 28-04-2020 01:25PM

STB. wrote: »

I perused the contract Ogle showed. I couldn't see anything about a picking rate. A picking rate ??

I also don't see anything in Irish employment law that states that you can pay anything other than the minimum hourly rate!

You can roughly tell by his PRSI contributions how many weeks he has been there. I cannot see a tax deduction.

He stated that there was not enough work after the 8th week and he was offered a job by the same agency in Scotland at his own air expense. Meanwhile more pickers were arriving from Bulgaria at that time (according to the interview).

That these workers in this industry are ponying up between €500 to €750 to the agency to work 12 week contracts (8 of which are on probation) with uncertainty of what happens after 8 weeks, seems all very sharp to me. Sure you would be afraid to challenge anything.

Keeling's stated that workers are paid by a picking rate with some workers hitting 15/hour and I think 80% hitting the picking rate. If you fail to achieve the picking rate you wage is bought up to the minimum rate of pay. The play slip confirms that he was not hitting the pick rate and his wages were adjusted for that.

He was probably lucky to last 8 weeks if all his pick rates were like that. He was only hitting the mid 70 if the pick rate.

weldoninhio · 28-04-2020 01:30PM

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Keeling's stated that workers are paid by a picking rate with some workers hitting 15/hour and I think 80% hitting the picking rate. If you fail to achieve the picking rate you wage is bought up to the minimum rate of pay. The play slip confirms that he was not hitting the pick rate and his wages were adjusted for that.

He was probably lucky to last 8 weeks if all his pick rates were like that. He was only hitting the mid 70 if the pick rate.

Wrong, some farmer in Kildare I think it was said this, others then presumed that this was the industry standard and started using this farmers wages as Keelings. Keelings have not been forthcoming whatsoever about what they pay.

Scotty # · 28-04-2020 01:36PM

STB. wrote: »

No because they have an exemption because the standards fall outside what is commercially acceptable.

Exemption for what? What are you talking about?

Bass Reeves · 28-04-2020 02:22PM

STB. wrote: »

It states a basic hourly pay rate on that payslip . And that basic is below the minimum wage set. He also worked overtime. So are these conclusions real ?

I'd love to hear the commentary from an expert in employment law scenarios whereby the basic wage can be separated from the minimum wage set by employment law.

He is paid the minimum wage, his wages are ADJUSTED to reflect that he failed to reach the picking target. Do you think Brendan Ogle is thick as well. If Keeling's were not paying the MW he h e them before the employment rights authority if the wages were in any way wrong.

Another fact you got wrong is that the tax credit is a yearly credit. It is for a calendar year. It is equivalent to slightly over 16k taxable income. On strict terms employee then pay tax in there country of origin.

Scotty # · 28-04-2020 02:24PM

STB. wrote: »

He is paid by the hour as stated on his payslip.

Your Punch & Judy style of debate is quite comical. He is paid per kilo. If you want to refute that then please provide a source or at least a shred of evidence.

His payslip says nothing about him being paid per hour.

Regardless, he does not get paid less than minimum wage. His wage was over €480 despite what Brendan Ogle would have you believe.

STB. wrote: »

He was there on a 12 week contract he does not get an annual tax credit.

Please stop making stuff up or purporting to know about things when you clearly don't.

If you receive income that is taxable, then you are entitled to tax credits. You can read all about it here..

STB. wrote: »

The minmum wage adjustment IS NOT what you think it is.

It's exactly what I think it is. What other explanation could there be?

STB. wrote: »

After 20% tax/prsi and €95 accommodation paid he would not have a whole lot more for a 50 HOUR WEEK.

As has already clearly been explained to you. He is not liable for income tax as his tax liability falls below his tax credits.

Accomodation costs are completely irrelevant as to what he earns.

Scotty # · 28-04-2020 02:33PM

2u2me wrote: »

How do you know the quotas are fair quotas? That is a ridiculous statement to make unless you know if the quoatas are being met by others.
A second hand 'I heard from Keelings 70% meet their quotas' just doesn't cut it.

Unachievable targets are pointless and actually have a negative impact on production. No employer sets unachievable targets, including Keelings.

On the week in question, the guy was around €90 worth of work short on his target. I'm no Einstein, but I would say that's why he was let go at the end of the probation period. You think Keelings want to go and spend another four days training someone else to replace him?

Bass Reeves · 28-04-2020 02:52PM

Scotty # wrote: »

Unachievable targets are pointless and actually have a negative impact on production. No employer sets unachievable targets, including Keelings.

On the week in question, the guy was around €90 worth of work short on his target. I'm no Einstein, but I would say that's why he was let go at the end of the probation period. You think Keelings want to go and spend another four days training someone else to replace him?

Too many believe in the big bad wolf. As you stated if targets are not achieveable by the vast majority lads will not opt to achieve them. This lad being 70ish% if the target tells it own story. Employers are no angels but neither are they the big bad wolf

Bulgarian workers/Keelings - read OP (threadbans listed)

Comments