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Our hospitals are actually very quiet.

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  • 02-04-2020 8:59pm
    #1
    Balf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 667 ✭✭✭


    Sez our Chief Medical Officer, before he asks people to crowd into A&E before anyone notices that our health services are generally well funded and the congestion line they usually peddle is bunkum.

    https://www.thejournal.ie/tony-holohan-hospital-symptoms-5065098-Apr2020/

    Its the arbitrary air about his comment that I wonder about. He turns up in a hospital, sees empty beds and leaps to the conclusion that there's a problem because it should be bedlam.

    Sorry reality doesn't match your preconceptions, boss.


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    #2
    Badly Drunk Boy
    Registered Users Posts: 6,451 ✭✭✭Badly Drunk Boy


    He's probably just worried that people who should be getting care are not. People could be hesitant about going to hospitals, even if they are showing some symptoms. :confused:


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    #3
    Salary Negotiator
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,148 ✭✭✭Salary Negotiator


    Badly Drunk Boy wrote: »
    He's probably just worried that people who should be getting care are not. People could be hesitant about going to hospitals, even if they are showing some symptoms. :confused:

    This was the exact point a Consultant in A&E medicine was making on the news last week.


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    #4
    Harry Palmr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 40,061 ✭✭✭✭Harry Palmr


    Will this lack of attendance show itself in early/sudden deaths stats later?


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    #5
    WAW
    Registered Users Posts: 229 ✭✭WAW


    Woe betide anyone who points this out. People are going to become ill and some will die because they've been staying away from the hospitals. We only hear stats about Covid at the moment but what about all those significantly more people dying from stroke, flu, heart disease, diabetes, etc, most of them elderly.I'm curious about all these so called angels of health workers supposedly battling on the frontline at the moment. Genuinely. Are they all swabbing or what? There aren't that many admissions with Covid-19 and general admissions are down.Anytime I passed the hospitals recently, they were quiet but obviously I haven't been in. Are the health staff all currently mad busy? I don't get that. Loads of extra staff, existing other workers transferred to covid 19 duty. Are they all waiting for the Covid 19 surge in admissions? Nobody wants deaths from Covid but we don't want people to die either because they were afraid to go to their doctor or to hospitals out of fear for Covid.


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    #6
    Balf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 667 ✭✭✭Balf


    WAW wrote: »
    Nobody wants deaths from Covid but we don't want people to die either because they were afraid to go to their doctor or to hospitals out of fear for Covid.
    Fair point, but what bothered me was the way the CMO seems to think his personal anecdote should convert directly into public health advice.

    Fair enough if he'd found out some facts, like whether attendance's are down in a couple of our main hospitals, which I take it any of them could tell him if asked.

    I guess they would be embarrassed if we've overstaffed hospitals on full pay doing little or nothing, while many people are told they can't earn because they're inessential.

    OECD are estimating a 15 to 25% contraction in the economy. That's a crippling human cost. Stunted lives, and many burdens and lost chances for very many people.

    At the end of this, we really need a deep analysis of the immense human cost that has been demanded without, I suspect, any real advance thought. Political leaders bought into this, and probably have too much invested to stop now.

    Although I thought Leo's commitment that the main Leaving Cert exams will happen is a first indication that they realise that the damage they're doing would be hard to justify, unless it was needed to slow up the Earth's rotation enough to avoid a collision with a particularly large asteroid.


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    #7
    BrianD3
    Registered Users Posts: 8,277 ✭✭✭BrianD3


    I posted about this in the main thread, I have some ideas (some would say borderline conspiracy theories) in my head about why Dr Holohan made those comments and how it could be linked to the change in how ICU numbers are being reported and various other things that are happening.

    These things generally don't happen by accident, there is thought behind them. I would be very surprised if Dr Holohan just spewed out some anecdotal, off the cuff comments about his personal experience in hospital.


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    #8
    DeVore
    Business & Finance Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 32,387 Mod ✭✭✭✭DeVore


    WAW wrote: »
    Woe betide anyone who points this out. People are going to become ill and some will die because they've been staying away from the hospitals. We only hear stats about Covid at the moment but what about all those significantly more people dying from stroke, flu, heart disease, diabetes, etc, most of them elderly.I'm curious about all these so called angels of health workers supposedly battling on the frontline at the moment. Genuinely. Are they all swabbing or what? There aren't that many admissions with Covid-19 and general admissions are down.Anytime I passed the hospitals recently, they were quiet but obviously I haven't been in. Are the health staff all currently mad busy? I don't get that. Loads of extra staff, existing other workers transferred to covid 19 duty. Are they all waiting for the Covid 19 surge in admissions? Nobody wants deaths from Covid but we don't want people to die either because they were afraid to go to their doctor or to hospitals out of fear for Covid.


    My sister is head clinical pharmacist in a private hospital that has been taken over by the HSE. She's on wards and in and out of patients rooms discussing drug regimes and interactions for NON-covid patients, specifically in orthopaedics.

    She's exhausted. Every day she comes home fried and late. Its insanely busy she tells me.

    They have moved all the patients from the Mater (for sure) and another major hospital (I *think* Beaumont), into her place literally over the course of about 3 days. The hospitals you are referring to as "quiet" as the ones waiting for the storm. The ones cleared to make room for the covid patients.

    The other hospitals, from what she tells me, are rammed to clear space for the infectious.

    I'm curious about all these so called angels of health workers supposedly battling on the frontline at the moment

    Most of me hopes you never need their help but a small part of me is angry enough with you to hope you do.


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    #9
    Balf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 667 ✭✭✭Balf


    DeVore wrote: »
    My sister is head clinical pharmacist in a private hospital that has been taken over by the HSE. ....
    So you're saying your sister's anecdote is more reliable than the CMO's anecdote, as he seems to be unaware of what she's saying as he was expecting to see more bed occupancy than he did.

    As, you'll appreciate, the CMO didn't say "I was admitted to a public hospital, and noticed a lack of patients which shows how well our strategy of hiring private space is going."

    Does your sister have any anecdotes about how much the HSE are paying for the use of that private hospital?


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    #10
    Balf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 667 ✭✭✭Balf


    BrianD3 wrote: »
    I would be very surprised if Dr Holohan just spewed out some anecdotal, off the cuff comments about his personal experience in hospital.
    Maybe you are right, yet he seemed to.

    You mentioned posting this on another thread. Could you link where? I'd be interested in seeing how the discussion went.


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    #11
    Balf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 667 ✭✭✭Balf


    Hospitals still seem very quite. Remember the days when the IMNO would be hyperventilating over the trolley count?

    Almost no-one on a trolley in our fully staffed hospitals, as of 8:00am today:
    https://inmo.ie/Trolley_Ward_Watch

    And private hospitals are proportedly mostly empty too, making you wonder why the Gubbermint is given them a large wad of our cash at present:
    https://www.newstalk.com/news/private-consultant-says-doctors-wouldnt-need-contract-treat-public-patients-coronavirus-surge-999341

    The problem at the moment is that less than 20% of private hospitals have any occupancy.
    Meanwhile, the great Irish public are observing social distance. Many, now without jobs.

    Is this being given the attention it deserves? Managing a crisis doesn't mean throw our scarce money around goodo. If the private hospitals aren't needed (as seems to be the case) why not sent their staff home on €350 a week?


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    #12
    yosemitesam1
    Registered Users Posts: 2,927 ✭✭✭yosemitesam1


    Balf wrote: »
    Hospitals still seem very quite. Remember the days when the IMNO would be hyperventilating over the trolley count?

    Almost no-one on a trolley in our fully staffed hospitals, as of 8:00am today:
    https://inmo.ie/Trolley_Ward_Watch

    And private hospitals are proportedly mostly empty too, making you wonder why the Gubbermint is given them a large wad of our cash at present:
    Meanwhile, the great Irish public are observing social distance. Many, now without jobs.

    Is this being given the attention it deserves? Managing a crisis doesn't mean throw our scarce money around goodo. If the private hospitals aren't needed (as seems to be the case) why not sent their staff home on €350 a week?
    While the private hospitals are empty, presume any planned procedures etc are still cancelled?


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    #13
    Balf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 667 ✭✭✭Balf


    yosemitesam1 wrote: »
    While the private hospitals are empty, presume any planned procedures etc are still cancelled?
    That seems to be the situation.

    The sequence of events seems to be that patients didn't want to go near hospitals, because of the virus (bearing in mind that the over 60s would be well over-represented among the customers of the private hospitals.) So the private hospitals were pretty empty.

    Leo announces what is effectively a rescue package for the largely empty private hospitals, in the guise of a public health measure. One journalist even misreads Leo's "not for profit" spin as meaning the private hospitals are offering the services for free.

    We, as in the people of Ireland, are now funding the private hospitals, which are still pretty empty. In addition to funding the public hospitals, which are also pretty empty, and have been for a while (judging from the IMNO trolley data.)

    So, yeah, lot of implications around this whole crisis. Definitely we need to ask lots of questions before we let doctors make decisions about reorganising the world again, bless them.

    I mean, its not even good for the doctors if there's no-one left with any money to pay them. I'm not sure the medical profession have quite figured that out yet.


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    #14
    Eric Cartman
    Registered Users Posts: 26,283 ✭✭✭✭Eric Cartman


    The time wasters and bed blockers are gone, this is how A&E should be , free of junkies and drunks and jacintas kids with colds.


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    #15
    wheresthebeef
    Registered Users Posts: 887 ✭✭✭wheresthebeef


    ICU is busy at the moment but yes generally wards are still quiet.
    Meanwhile, nursing homes caring for the most vulnerable in society are struggling on with no staffing assistance from the HSE. Nurses and carers there working 60-70 hour weeks trying to cover for sick colleagues and no help. The PPE is very much welcome, but what we actually need is a few nurses so our own dont get sick and collapse from exhaustion.


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    #16
    yankinlk
    Registered Users Posts: 2,731 ✭✭✭yankinlk


    My mother gets eye injections every few weeks in a private hospital. They are still happening.


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    #17
    Rvsmmnps
    Closed Accounts Posts: 151 ✭✭Rvsmmnps


    DeVore wrote: »
    My sister is head clinical pharmacist in a private hospital that has been taken over by the HSE. She's on wards and in and out of patients rooms discussing drug regimes and interactions for NON-covid patients, specifically in orthopaedics.

    She's exhausted. Every day she comes home fried and late. Its insanely busy she tells me.

    They have moved all the patients from the Mater (for sure) and another major hospital (I *think* Beaumont), into her place literally over the course of about 3 days. The hospitals you are referring to as "quiet" as the ones waiting for the storm. The ones cleared to make room for the covid patients.

    The other hospitals, from what she tells me, are rammed to clear space for the infectious.




    Most of me hopes you never need their help but a small part of me is angry enough with you to hope you do.

    So Beaumont are caring for a large amount of patients now? and the mater is just waiting for the rush to come but hopefully not.

    All those dancing nurse and doctors videos from nyc are not helping people perceptions.


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    #18
    misschoo
    Registered Users Posts: 303 ✭✭misschoo


    Wow as a healthcare worker working in a major acute hospital in Dublin I’m absolutely stunned by some of the assumptions made by some here on what they think or assume just by “passing by” a hospital. Yes major hospital are moving patients over to more private now public hospitals but we are definitely not sitting around twiddling our thumbs. Shame on you for making that assumption. Every A&E department has been split into two - one for COVID query and the other for other emergencies. May you never have to see the COVID side of the hospital for yourself or a loved one and the cheek of you to question our pay.


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    #19
    iamwhoiam
    Registered Users Posts: 16,072 ✭✭✭✭iamwhoiam


    misschoo wrote: »
    Wow as a healthcare worker working in a major acute hospital in Dublin I’m absolutely stunned by some of the assumptions made by some here on what they think or assume just by “passing by” a hospital. Yes major hospital are moving patients over to more private now public hospitals but we are definitely not sitting around twiddling our thumbs. Shame on you for making that assumption. Every A&E department has been split into two - one for COVID query and the other for other emergencies. May you never have to see the COVID side of the hospital for yourself or a loved one and the cheek of you to question our pay.

    And thank you very much for your part in the fight to keep us safe


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    #20
    Balf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 667 ✭✭✭Balf


    misschoo wrote: »
    I’m absolutely stunned by some of the assumptions made by some here on what they think or assume just by “passing by” a hospital.
    Do you mean the CMO Dr Tony Holohan?
    https://www.thejournal.ie/tony-holohan-hospital-symptoms-5065098-Apr2020/
    “I did respond quickly and was looked after well at a hospital which was not as busy as it I think it should be.”
    That's a direct quote.
    misschoo wrote: »
    Yes major hospital are moving patients over to more private now public hospitals
    Which, reportedly, are also pretty quiet.
    misschoo wrote: »
    the cheek of you to question our pay.
    I'm not sure if you've been keeping up with current events, but hundreds of thousands of people have actually been deprived of their pay.

    Now, that's cheeky.


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    #21
    Jim Gazebo
    Registered Users Posts: 2,355 ✭✭✭Jim Gazebo


    I had to attend an a&e over weekend, thankfully not serious and I am fine now but it as concerning at the time. Was quiet compared to norms, I was in and out in 3 hours. So don't bite me all at once, the set up was savage, and the staff are all amazing but it was quiet I thought....


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    #22
    slavetothegrind
    Registered Users Posts: 2,789 ✭✭✭slavetothegrind


    Not nice trolling . not nice at all.


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    #23
    Spanish Eyes
    Registered Users Posts: 15,865 ✭✭✭✭Spanish Eyes


    Genuine A+E cases will be cared for, like stroke, cardiac, car accidents and so on. It is an EMERGENCY department, and it will continue to look after those emergencies.

    A big analysis should be undertaken in due course to discover why A+E waiting rooms are largely empty now. We will remember this and counterract a lot of the trolley watch stuff, and ask why there are so many attending A+E who largely do not need to do so immediately. GPs have a part to play here. They can wash their hands of issues they are not sure of, and off the patients go to A+E. Big time needs to be tackled now that we can see that GP referrals are minimal at present.

    I am not having a go at anyone here for the record, but really, lessons must be learned now.

    And I do realise that because electives have been cancelled there are more beds. That does not negate the fact that A+E attendance in person is practically nil now. Needs to be thought out.


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    #24
    misschoo
    Registered Users Posts: 303 ✭✭misschoo


    I'm not sure if you've been keeping up with current events, but hundreds of thousands of people have actually been deprived of their pay.

    Now, that's cheeky.[/QUOTE]

    Are you serious?! You’re a donkey. The usual anti public sector bull****. Everyone thinking they know how it should be when they haven’t a clue.
    You stay safe and COVID free


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    #25
    Harry Palmr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 40,061 ✭✭✭✭Harry Palmr


    Across the water they are starting to wonder about another quiet medical disaster unfolding as the worried unwell stay at home, their conditions deteriorate and more people die than would otherwise have been the case.


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    #26
    NovemberWren
    Registered Users Posts: 374 ✭✭NovemberWren


    at Wr'frd reg.hosp. yesterday a Security guard outside the main door said no persons whatsoever are allowed in.

    They are not even allowing visitors to the regular patients there. Those patients must be going barmy.


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    #27
    celt262
    Registered Users Posts: 3,374 ✭✭✭celt262


    Spanish Eyes wrote: »

    A big analysis should be undertaken in due course to discover why A+E waiting rooms are largely empty now. We will remember this and counterract a lot of the trolley watch stuff, and ask why there are so many attending A+E who largely do not need to do so immediately. GPs have a part to play here. They can wash their hands of issues they are not sure of, and off the patients go to A+E. Big time needs to be tackled now that we can see that GP referrals are minimal at present.

    No need I can assist.

    Majority of the country are lying around home so not getting hurt at work, less vehicle accidents, sports injuries etc. Others are afraid to go into a&e incase they catch the virus some of these would be genuine people who need care the others because they have the medical card and think they have to use it for a head cold.


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    #28
    mickdw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,260 ✭✭✭✭mickdw


    NovemberWren wrote: »
    at Wr'frd reg.hosp. yesterday a Security guard outside the main door said no persons whatsoever are allowed in.

    They are not even allowing visitors to the regular patients there. Those patients must be going barmy.

    It would be madness to allow visitors to hospitals. The risk is just off the scale.


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    #29
    misschoo
    Registered Users Posts: 303 ✭✭misschoo


    NovemberWren wrote: »
    at Wr'frd reg.hosp. yesterday a Security guard outside the main door said no persons whatsoever are allowed in.

    They are not even allowing visitors to the regular patients there. Those patients must be going barmy.

    They are not allowing visitors in so that inpatients do not contract the virus From the outside - does that not make sense?


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    #30
    DeVore
    Business & Finance Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 32,387 Mod ✭✭✭✭DeVore


    The whole point of flattening the curve was so that the hospitals would not get so busy with Covid patients that they would not be able to treat both Covid *and* non-Covid patients. So we lockeddown to slow the rate and buy them time.

    Add to that that people are not playing sports (my sisters hospital is almost entirely full with sports injuries usually), not on construction sites, not in workshops, not *driving* or on bikes. So, the demand for hospitals has rocketted down.

    Add to that that people are concerned about going to hospitals as they think they will be ground zero for covid like in Italy. (which they arent, those people should attend as directed or if they feel its an emergency).

    In this instance, our medical system has responded really really well and the general public have bought them precious time and space... the whole approach is actually *working*.


    AND YOU'RE COMPLAINING???


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    #31
    Spanish Eyes
    Registered Users Posts: 15,865 ✭✭✭✭Spanish Eyes


    I still wonder how many self present now in an emergency without a doctor's referral.

    The fact that GPs were referring all and sundry to A+E could be a factor if you think about it, and since GP surgeries are largely off limits now the referrals from that cohort are largely gone now.

    Just saying.


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