VRT appeals valuation nonsense

nebkat · 19-03-2020 10:07pm #1

Imported a used 151 Audi A6 3.0TDI Estate back in December from up north for €17k, went to get it VRT'd in January and was charged VRT on their estimated retail price of €43k(!), which was just over €8k excluding the new NOx tax. Obviously expected their valuation to be a bit higher but seems I got hit with a particularly bad case of extortion. Paid up as the 30 days to register were running up, and would have to do so to appeal anyway.

Spent the next 2 months gathering evidence for the appeal, no A6 3.0 estates available in Ireland at the time so gathered ads for about 5 A6 3.0 saloons, all within 1 year and similar mileage to mine, most even a higher spec (mine is SE). Also included a comparison of the price of saloon vs estate both when new and for used 151 but 2.0 engine instead of 3.0, which basically showed the price was identical between saloon/estate. Going rate was around €24k.

Found out in the mean time that there was a problem with the timing chain and was quoted by Audi €5.5k for an engine removal just to inspect the problem (another joke worthy of its own thread but...). Couldn't reasonably consider paying that much after the VRT ripoff, so didn't get it repaired immediately, but included a note about this in my appeal along with the quote.

Got a letter back from VRT appeals stating that I didn't include any ads for my vehicle and that I hadn't included the invoice for the repairs. Phoned them up and explained that a) there are no 3.0 estates in Ireland and b) I haven't completed the repairs because I've had to pay so much for VRT. Response was basically that it's not their problem, I have to provide proof of the retail value of the car within 21 days by going to dealers and getting it in writing, and was then essentially accused of making a false declaration of the repairs despite clearly stating that they were "necessary" and not "conducted" repairs.

Have now been driving from dealer to dealer asking if they'd be able to give me a valuation, which is obviously of no benefit to them. Most have never heard of the concept, tell me they wouldn't do that sort of thing, they aren't the manager, etc, or to go to Audi. Audi say they don't get involved. Had one smaller place help me out because they sympathized with the problem, and have a mate helping me get a valuation, but still supposedly need a third valuation. Have to head out for yet another round of pestering dealers tomorrow in the midst of this outbreak because they've put close to €4k on the line for me to prove to them the obvious, and I'd rather not wait until everything gets shut down. Thankfully it means its quieter in most places so they're more likely to entertain my request but its still an idiotic pursuit.

Anyone had any similar experiences, or know a place that would be able to help out? Any use making a complaint somewhere? Already getting ready to go to next stage of appeals with TAC when they decide to pull a new excuse out of their arse...

colm_mcm · 19-03-2020 10:47pm

Post some donedeal ads...

Toyotafanboi · 19-03-2020 10:51pm

You should get the upper coolant shut off valve changed while they are doing the chain, otherwise that'll break your heart again later.

I take it €5.5k is for the chain tensioner and replacement camshafts?

Have no idea regards vrt.

nebkat · 19-03-2020 11:04pm

colm_mcm wrote: »

Post some donedeal ads...

Did that originally with the saloons, only one estate available now since they sent their response, and its a 171 S-Line for €29k, I'm sure in their eyes the depreciation has all but finished and my 151 is in fact worth €28.5k.

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

You should get the upper coolant shut off valve changed while they are doing the chain, otherwise that'll break your heart again later.

I take it €5.5k is for the chain tensioner and replacement camshafts?

No no, €5.5k for the engine removal, just to determine what the problem is! So far only determined with a sound test. Safe to say I'll be taking it elsewhere... Thanks for the advice on the valve!

bazz26 · 19-03-2020 11:07pm

Cannot help you with the VRT but if Audi are not contributing anything towards the cost of a new chain then I wouldn't be getting any work done by them at those prices.

colm_mcm · 19-03-2020 11:12pm

nebkat wrote: »

Did that originally with the saloons, only one estate available now since they sent their response, and its a 171 S-Line for €29k, I'm sure in their eyes the depreciation has all but finished and my 151 is in fact worth €28.5k.
!

Post your own ones

nebkat · 19-03-2020 11:26pm

bazz26 wrote: »

Cannot help you with the VRT but if Audi are not contributing anything towards the cost of a new chain then I wouldn't be getting any work done by them at those prices.

Yeah that won't be happening. Was told it's 35 labour hours at €152/h.. I'm sure it's a big job, but is the issue here the €152/h or the supposed 35 hours? Either abusing their position as official service, or overengineered the whole thing to be complicated, or both.

colm_mcm wrote: »

Post your own ones

Has to be an ad from a dealer, otherwise you could have a few mates posting ads at very low prices to get the valuation down.

colm_mcm · 19-03-2020 11:31pm

Ok I just know from Campervans that they accept private sales, cars might be different.

Do you understand how their depreciation system works, do you know what depreciation code they applied to your valuation?

nebkat · 19-03-2020 11:53pm

colm_mcm wrote: »

Ok I just know from Campervans that they accept private sales, cars might be different.

Do you understand how their depreciation system works, do you know what depreciation code they applied to your valuation?

Ah right, probably makes sense for campervans if there aren't as many available.

Yeah I've read all their documents to try find any point to complain about - What happened is their original OMSP when new is set wrong, €74k instead of €63k (https://www.audi.ie/dam/nemo/ie/Downloads/price-list.pdf) and the depreciation code is A1 for some reason, which makes sense for S-Line Black Edition Bi-TDIs and such but its very unusual on an SE 218ps. Could go arguing about that but I suppose that's what the appeals process is for, and even if they put it at something reasonable for them it would still be far too high.

Not to mention the fact that they apply VRT on top of a valuation that includes VRT already, artificially inflating the value of all used cars.

Sad thing is, someone is going to import another one of these and either won't have a spare €4k to throw on VRT, or just won't bother to go to the lengths that I am to get it back.

kirving · 20-03-2020 1:11am

As far as I can work out VRT Code A1 is the default.

I was close to buying a (rare) Volvo V70 D6. €57k new, €12k to buy from UK, Revenue had it up at €44k. No comparable cars for sale here, so would have been screwed.

However, it's now at a much lower code for VRT, so they can and do change them. You need to keep fighting, I'm just not sure the best path, sorry.

bilbot79 · 20-03-2020 1:19am

How far was that valuation from the advertised OMSP on the VRT website before you bought the car?

Edit: had a look on the VRT website. You definitely got shafted and I think it was on the Nox reading.

Your cars initial OMSP is 43 odd but 20k as it's a 2015. You pay some 19% of that in VRT. Just under 4k. Then as your vehicle is e6 Nox standards or I think 52mg odd, another 600e.

On the website however if you don't enter a Nox figure the Nox charge automatically goes to 4k on its own which together with VRT arrives at your figure.

Whoever did it did it wrong

nebkat · 20-03-2020 2:15am

bilbot79 wrote: »

How far was that valuation from the advertised OMSP on the VRT website before you bought the car?

Edit: had a look on the VRT website. You definitely got shafted and I think it was on the Nox reading.

Your cars initial OMSP is 43 odd but 20k as it's a 2015. You pay some 19% of that in VRT. Just under 4k. Then as your vehicle is e6 Nox standards or I think 52mg odd, another 600e.

On the website however if you don't enter a Nox figure the Nox charge automatically goes to 4k on its own which together with VRT arrives at your figure.

Whoever did it did it wrong

Just €405 on NOx VRT, they do list the amounts separately. In fact given that the NOx replaced the 1% surcharge on diesel, it was only an extra ~€160 compared to that. I don't remember exactly what the OMSP was but I know most values were a good bit higher. I might have come across this one and assumed it was just a mistake, as there are 20 different model variants listed, some of which seem to overlap.

The way they speak of the calculator not being final I assumed the process was that you turn up to the NCT/VRT centre, hand over the keys and they inspect it for 15 minutes to verify the exact model, condition, mileage, extras, etc and then come up with a price. Was surprised to find they just check VIN matches your submission and nothing else. VRT is exactly what is shown on the calculator. Did it in Dundalk rather than Dublin because they had an earlier date, person dealing with it was quite friendly and found it just as outrageous as I did, but obviously not up to them to decide. They even let me look through all the details to try make it cheaper but it does indeed match the exact spec "SE QUATTRO 218PS 5DR AUTO".

That €43k is OMSP post depreciation, they have it down as €73k new along with an A1 depreciation code. I do wonder if the VRT charge has anything to do with a lack of them in the country. Seems like dealers could have a similar struggle.

bilbot79 · 20-03-2020 2:25am

Crumbs it really is. Worst I've ever heard of and emissions arent even bad

Mintoe · 20-03-2020 3:12am

Not much use now and easy to say in hindsight but I doubt you’d have any issues if you’d have bought from 1 of the many reputable independent Irish dealers that have been importing good quality used cars from uk for many years that would have given you warranty....... but maybe the relatively small amount extra that you would have paid wasn’t worth it so you decided to buy direct from uk yourself and unfortunately you bought a lemon(ref engine issue)........ also you wouldn’t have to deal with the pain that is revenue..... difficult lesson learned and other buyers who are thinking of going direct to uk take note

nebkat · 20-03-2020 1:14pm

Mintoe wrote: »

Not much use now and easy to say in hindsight but I doubt you’d have any issues if you’d have bought from 1 of the many reputable independent Irish dealers that have been importing good quality used cars from uk for many years that would have given you warranty....... but maybe the relatively small amount extra that you would have paid wasn’t worth it so you decided to buy direct from uk yourself and unfortunately you bought a lemon(ref engine issue)........ also you wouldn’t have to deal with the pain that is revenue..... difficult lesson learned and other buyers who are thinking of going direct to uk take note

Of course, no doubt there are benefits to buying through local dealers and I certainly do appreciate the service that they provide. Essentially you're paying them insurance that if something goes wrong with the car you're covered, and over 50 cars sold if one is bad they still make a profit. Last car I bought through a dealer never had any faults that were covered by warranty, and while you could make a point that it was a good pick by the dealer, this new car actually passed a full Audi service and was told its in "perfect condition" before I asked them to recheck the rattling.

Took the chance, all things considered (revenue, chain and a weaker pound now) got shafted, but it's worth noting that once I win the appeal and get the chain fixed by anyone except Audi the car will still be around the same price as having bought it here, and that's with a serious mechanical fault! As much as I would like to support local businesses, there was potentially €4k in savings to be made.... if through the benefit of trade prices and such that was lower while they still made a profit it might be a different story.

All that said, main reason I went down this route was to get the car with the specs and options I was looking for. Price aside you can't beat the selection available in the UK, especially considering higher end cars. Everything we have here is low on options because you're paying VRT on the extras as well.

Truckermal · 20-03-2020 1:33pm

Why didn't you buy the 2.0L 190HP when you only gained little HP for such a huge amount of cash..

I imported a 161 in December with every option ticked and paid €5300 VRT and got €880 back on Appeal. I send copies of Ads of bog standard se models and they never questioned it.

bf · 20-03-2020 5:48pm

They hold the cards unfortunately. Print off the saloon ads you can find for a 3.0 saloon. Also get a written quote from the Audi garage you were talking to for the repairs & get them to include the reg number on it. That should give you enough ammunition to repsond

nebkat · 20-03-2020 7:03pm

Update from today, 30 places tried now in total, potentially one that can help on Monday, one that I'd have to call back to speak to the boss but apparently they'd do it. Feel like I've visited half the dealerships in Dublin...

Truckermal wrote: »

Why didn't you buy the 2.0L 190HP when you only gained little HP for such a huge amount of cash..

I imported a 161 in December with every option ticked and paid €5300 VRT and got €880 back on Appeal. I send copies of Ads of bog standard se models and they never questioned it.

Coming from a 2.0L 150HP so comparatively more noticeable with 218HP maybe, and it does have a good bit more torque, but you might be right. It does have the potential for huge gains from a remap though, since its identical to the 272HP, but not rushing into that now anyway.

Makes me wonder if sending them the comparison between saloon/estate was a mistake. Should have just sent in saloons and pretended to not know any better, maybe they wouldn't notice/care.

bf wrote: »

They hold the cards unfortunately. Print off the saloon ads you can find for a 3.0 saloon. Also get a written quote from the Audi garage you were talking to for the repairs & get them to include the reg number on it. That should give you enough ammunition to repsond

Both already done. The VRT Manual that they go by, which describes everything to do with the process, seems to be very much open to interpretation. They say "include any relevant documentation" but then they've completely discarded the quote from Audi. They say find "similar models" if none is available for sale but apparently a saloon is not similar enough.

colm_mcm · 20-03-2020 8:50pm

They will accept logic as well, I know someone who brought in something unusual spec wise and he used a spreadsheet to justify his argument.

nebkat · 20-03-2020 9:27pm

Glad to hear, putting the letter together now and including whatever I can. Read some of the cases from second stages tax appeals commission and they seem to be totally reasonable, so giving as much evidence as possible.

Casati · 21-03-2020 10:35am

Can you not get a dealer to give you a quote to buy the car off you?

nebkat · 22-03-2020 1:19am

Valuation then would surely be trade in value? If they were able to do it and give me retail value I presume someone would've said yes by now. Most places aren't doing real valuations now because they don't want to get into customer cars, keep having to tell them its not a real valuation

Casati · 22-03-2020 10:07am

nebkat wrote: »

Valuation then would surely be trade in value? If they were able to do it and give me retail value I presume someone would've said yes by now. Most places aren't doing real valuations now because they don't want to get into customer cars, keep having to tell them its not a real valuation

They would give you a trade valuation / not a retail value. I don’t know if revenue will accept that mind you?

nebkat · 25-03-2020 11:15pm

The nonsense continues... Prepared my response, long enough letter outlining why I think I was overcharged, showed inconsistencies in the VRT calculator, etc, along with two signed dealer valuations for €25k/€26k, email valuation for €20k and ads for a 2012 and a 2017 A6 3.0 estate. Figured I'd ask them for an email address to avoid going to the post office and to get it sorted quicker, was told to submit on Revenue MyAccount which lets you send a message directly to VRT Appeals office, along with attachments.

Sent the letter and proofs as attachments, stated clearly in the message that it's in response to their request for additional proof. To their credit, they got back within 24 hours, asking for my VRT receipt. Sent them the receipt and mentioned again that it's not a new appeal but a continuation of a previous appeal. 24 hours later:

Your vehicle was registered pon the 2nd January 2020 and your appeal was first submitted on the 23rd March 2020. Under the rules peratining to VRT appeals all appeals must be submitted within 60 days of the vehicle being registered. AS you are outside the 60 day time limit your appeal is not accepted.

Have now sent them their own letter to show that I was given 21 days extra to submit proof. But you really wonder ... they didn't read the single sentence I sent along with the VRT receipt ... or the first online message ... or my letter ... and yet they had time to write the above response (not a template, you can tell by the typos underlined) to tell me its invalid. Really becoming evident that they want to make you waste as much time and effort until you eventually give up on the process. :mad:

Tiger72 · 26-03-2020 7:10am

I had this problem with a 2010 Ford Focus in 2016 :
1. Went to the UK to buy a Subaru Forester but it was riddled with rust ! Couldn't get a plane home so had to buy a Focus to get home !
2.Came home paid VRT but as there was a huge amount of 2010 Focus's for sale at very small money i thought that the OMSP by Revenue was high.
3. Appealed it but this is the problem the Revenue are so Anal they will knock you for the slightest thing , your appeal has the have the same version of the car you are after buying . So in my case if it was a Zetec 110 bhp Diesel .
4.They returned my appeal as it did not contain the correct version of car . mileage etc
5.F*ck them ! ...Got my three different cars at we will say as a figure of around €6,000 - similar mileage etc (Im only saying six grand as a figure).Submitted my appeal again.
6.Was looking for €600 back
7.Appeal rejected as the person who done the valuation in revenue was asked to look at it again and in his opinion the OMSP was correct .
8.Boll*x to that !!! .Issued notice to Revenue that i was not happy and was taking my case to the the TAC (Tax Appeals Commission)
9.TAC are now involved .
10. TAC asked Revenue to issue me with the Paper work as to how they done the valuation .
11.After months of no paper work coming from revenue , I told the TAC that they must have no interest in my case give me my €600
12.Revenue issued me with paper work.
13.On inspection of the paperwork they had three expensive cars from Ford dealers - but here is how i caught them . Two of the cars were the same car but one of the ads was from Carzone and the other was from Cars Ireland i think - advertising the same car , so effectively he had only evidence from two cars !!!
14. TAC set up a hearing in Dublin for a future date and asked me was i still continuing
15. I told them i was and that i would be basing my evidence on the fact that Revenue did not calculate the OMSP correctly - they didn't have a leg to stand on but i didnt want to go to Dublin as it wasnt worth taking time off work etc .
16.Revenue offered me €150 or €200 - refused it .
17 TAC said another Revenue official would contact me .
18. Official contacted me - who was sound now to be fair , we had a chat and there was alot of waffle going on . Anyway this is what i said to him over the phone :
' Is this the Final offer ? '
His response ' ill talk to you '
Im looking for €600 can we have a bit of middle ground €400 ?
He accepted .
He told me he would have to consider the cost of the TAC hearing etc
This whole thing took Nine months before i got sorted - but i wouldn't back down.
Im not sure how you are going to proceed with this , but that is my story

MEGA BRO WOLF 5000 · 26-03-2020 7:26am

OP can you ask the VRT office if they used a stat code to get that VRT price or was it manually entered. As in, there may not be a stat code for it on their system and someone fcuked up when they did the initial calculation. It’s worth asking because that figure is insane.

nebkat · 26-03-2020 1:00pm

Tiger72 wrote: »

He told me he would have to consider the cost of the TAC hearing etc
This whole thing took Nine months before i got sorted - but i wouldn't back down.
Im not sure how you are going to proceed with this , but that is my story

Thanks for sharing, exact same story as mine it seems... awful stuff. I'm getting ready for TAC since I can see them turning down the timing chain repair costs, which is alone €1k in tax. Overall asking for ~€5k back (out of ~€8k paid) so it can go on for a few years if they like.

How can they claim cost of TAC hearing when it only happened due to their own mistake and unwillingness to compromise?? Shame they've set up a system where they will rip you off by default and then require a second organization to correct their faults.

Hunky Monster wrote: »

OP can you ask the VRT office if they used a stat code to get that VRT price or was it manually entered. As in, there may not be a stat code for it on their system and someone fcuked up when they did the initial calculation. It’s worth asking because that figure is insane.

They did use a stat code, the original OMSP was completely wrong. Here's what I included in my latest letter:

SE QUATTRO 218PS 4DR vs 5DR €3k difference in Audi price, €21k difference in Revenue price!

Tiger72 · 26-03-2020 8:24pm

nebkat wrote: »

How can they claim cost of TAC hearing when it only happened due to their own mistake and unwillingness to compromise?? Shame they've set up a system where they will rip you off by default and then require a second organization to correct their faults.

No the TAC is completely independent - i think they are like maybe accountants , solicitors etc appointed by the Government so the Revenue have no influence on the TAC . From remembering there was alot of information on the Revenue website on how the TAC with case studies on VRT appeal . Ill have a look later

nebkat · 26-03-2020 10:10pm

Tiger72 wrote: »

No the TAC is completely independent - i think they are like maybe accountants , solicitors etc appointed by the Government so the Revenue have no influence on the TAC . From remembering there was alot of information on the Revenue website on how the TAC with case studies on VRT appeal . Ill have a look later

Yep exactly, they release all their determinations online.

Interesting one here, concludes OMSP is determined at time of registration, so if you carry out repairs before registering you can't claim for the costs. That means in order to claim for them you have to register the car, then have your service booked and finish all the repairs within 60 days in time to submit your appeal - and I was told waiting times for such a repair in Audi service are a few weeks...

Another one here where they didn't accept as sufficient proof:

The Appellant contended that the reduced OMSP assigned, of €12,100, was excessive
and that the OMSP should be reduced to approximately €6,000. The Appellant stated
that the vehicle was in need of substantial repair when he purchased it. He furnished
an estimate of repairs from a reputable dealer which estimated the repairs at €7,923.
However, as he carried out most of the repairs himself, he was unable to furnish a
receipt in respect of the repairs.

So my situation is not looking great with the repairs, but it still seems to be very much up to interpretation of "sufficient proof" so who knows. Obviously Audi is a ripoff but if I was selling and fully disclosing the fact you'd be using an Audi quote for the discount from normal price.

You'd swear you're arguing a big tax fraud case rather than just asking to pay the fair share of tax for what you bought...

pale rider · 02-04-2020 5:15pm

Just for some balance I recently imported a car from the uk, it's Omsp was around €32k, I paid the vrt then appealed it and sent in a copy of a similar car for sale on DD.

Week and a half passed and they wrote out agreeing with my argument, I'm still awaiting the transfer but it's around €400ish.

I found the process straightforward and saved myself €1000's on local similar cars, a total newbie to importing but I think the lesson is to stick to something that is for sale locally for comparison purposes, check that vrt estimate ensuring you have the correct vehicle, spec and emissions are right etc.

Good luck with your efforts, it is indeed a campaign as described.

newmember2 · 03-04-2020 7:02pm

Apologies, I'm a little slow...why is revenue's OMSP more than the actual retail price?

VRT appeals valuation nonsense

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