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Workplaces and employer attitudes Megathread

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  • #92
    Atlantic Dawn
    Registered Users Posts: 81,016 ✭✭✭✭Atlantic Dawn
    M


    Aer Lingus did the very same yesterday...


    https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2020/0319/1124219-daa-freezes-recruitment-and-pay/


  • #93
    JeffKenna
    Registered Users Posts: 4,506 ✭✭✭JeffKenna


    clevtrev wrote: »
    there are a lot of people employed in Ryanair that have nothing to do with a plane

    The OP only cares about the Cabin Crew though.


  • #94
    Uncle Pierre
    Registered Users Posts: 1,443 ✭✭✭Uncle Pierre


    PhilOssophy wrote: »
    Why is it only an issue when Ryanair does this? Does the OP not realise that thousands have been laid off without a word or a cent?

    It's a real case of how you can spin the news, isn't it??

    Let's say the lowest-paid person in Ryanair is on 26k, since that's the figure the OP used. Two ways you can tell the same story:

    1 - "Ryanair fatcat slashes staff payments to just €13,000 while continuing to draw €500,000 himself"

    or

    2 - "Ryanair to keep all staff employed and pay them above Social Welfare rates even while planes are grounded".

    Both true, but one negative, one positive. Glass half empty or half full???


  • #95
    LuasSimon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,208 ✭✭✭LuasSimon


    Aer Lingus wouldn’t have the resources and capitalisation Ryanair does . With Ryanair It seems look after the rich shareholders at all costs .


  • #96
    JeffKenna
    Registered Users Posts: 4,506 ✭✭✭JeffKenna


    LuasSimon wrote: »
    Aer Lingus wouldn’t have the resources and capitalisation Ryanair does . With Ryanair It seems look after the rich shareholders at all costs .

    You do realize that a large proportion of shareholders are pension funds...you know, normal people who need a pension to live on when they retire.


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  • #97
    CIARAN_BOYLE
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 14,599 Mod ✭✭✭✭CIARAN_BOYLE


    LuasSimon wrote: »
    Aer Lingus wouldn’t have the resources and capitalisation Ryanair does . With Ryanair It seems look after the rich shareholders at all costs .

    Given that the shareholders share value seems to have fallen by roughly 40% of the last 6 weeks I think the shareholders have already done their suffering.


  • #98
    LuasSimon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,208 ✭✭✭LuasSimon


    CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »
    Given that the shareholders share value seems to have fallen by roughly 40% of the last 6 weeks I think the shareholders have already done their suffering.

    No fear of the shareholders they are up plenty over the past few years .
    They might have to cutback to 5 foreign holidays a year when this virus passes .


  • #99
    purifol0
    Registered Users Posts: 739 ✭✭✭purifol0


    As I posted in another thread this un(der)emplyment situation will be foisted on tax payers to deal with. IBEC had a meeting with the Govt two weeks ago and thats not a good thing. So if you think IBEC went in there to offer a hand to the workers of Ireland in this our time of need, guess again.

    As I am also sick of saying it is of course utterly unfair that public sector workers are kept on full pay while the rest of us will see incomes shrink, whether via reduced hours or even the business itself going under resulting in essentially unavoidable layoffs.

    Would have been nice if govt had bothered to give (non public sector) workers things like employer paid sick pay, and a separate but easily accessible (and un-pilferable by govt) pot of PRSI payments. As it stands now you'll get whatever dole the country can afford AFTER it pays the public sector their pay and massive pensions. Not before - they get paid first ALWAYS. Even if it means Ireland has to borrow herself into serfdom. Private sector employers arent going to ask banks for massive loans to keep employing staff at full pay when they aren't doing any work or making sales (even if its no ones fault).

    What this will mean is another FFG govt that protects the already overpaid and protected while the rest have to emigrate or join the dole queue. Its worth remembering that teachers unions were out on strike just weeks ago for more pay and the common line trotted out by them was "there isn't another recession now is there"...

    As for Ryanair's workers, this is probably the best case scenario for them. Many less scrupulous employers and certainly ones who just cannot afford it will have told staff to hit the dole, let the exchequer take the hit and come back to them when its all over. With zero guarantee of re-employment! 14 thousand laid off so far folks, and we're only a week in.


  • #100
    Amirani
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,521 Mod ✭✭✭✭Amirani


    LuasSimon wrote: »
    Aer Lingus wouldn’t have the resources and capitalisation Ryanair does . With Ryanair It seems look after the rich shareholders at all costs .

    Ryanair have yearly revenue of €7bn. Aer Lingus are part of IAG which has yearly revenues of €24bn.


  • #101
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 8,647 ✭[Deleted User]


    purifol0 wrote: »
    As I posted in another thread this un(der)emplyment situation will be foisted on tax payers to deal with. IBEC had a meeting with the Govt two weeks ago and thats not a good thing. So if you think IBEC went in there to offer a hand to the workers of Ireland in this our time of need, guess again.

    As I am also sick of saying it is of course utterly unfair that public sector workers are kept on full pay while the rest of us will see incomes shrink, whether via reduced hours or even the business itself going under resulting in essentially unavoidable layoffs.

    Would have been nice if govt had bothered to give (non public sector) workers things like employer paid sick pay, and a separate but easily accessible (and un-pilferable by govt) pot of PRSI payments. As it stands now you'll get whatever dole the country can afford AFTER it pays the public sector their pay and massive pensions. Not before - they get paid first ALWAYS. Even if it means Ireland has to borrow herself into serfdom. Private sector employers arent going to ask banks for massive loans to keep employing staff at full pay when they aren't doing any work or making sales (even if its no ones fault).

    What this will mean is another FFG govt that protects the already overpaid and protected while the rest have to emigrate or join the dole queue. Its worth remembering that teachers unions were out on strike just weeks ago for more pay and the common line trotted out by them was "there isn't another recession now is there"...

    As for Ryanair's workers, this is probably the best case scenario for them. Many less scrupulous employers and certainly ones who just cannot afford it will have told staff to hit the dole, let the exchequer take the hit and come back to them when its all over. With zero guarantee of re-employment! 14 thousand laid off so far folks, and we're only a week in.

    Some of us in the public service are working very hard trying to keep the health service going and you know..... stop people from dying. As far as I'm aware, everybody in the public sector is working in one form or another.


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  • #102
    Padraig Mor
    Registered Users Posts: 9,526 ✭✭✭Padraig Mor


    LuasSimon wrote: »
    Michael O Leary announced today all staff including himself are taking a 50% pay cut .
    Its easy for him on a Million a year down to 500K but to be cutting someone on 26K down to 13K a year is a lot different , surely those earning over 100K should take a greater cut than those earning just above minimum wage cabin crew etc.

    The company have 4 Billion in cash, surely they could pay their wages for a few weeks. Just more keep the small amount of rich superrich rich and drive the poor into the ground .

    Oh stop moaning. The cabin crew will be getting money for nothing presumably. I'd imagine O'Leary will be working his hole off for the next few months.


  • #103
    purifol0
    Registered Users Posts: 739 ✭✭✭purifol0


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Some of us in the public service are working very hard trying to keep the health service going and you know..... stop people from dying. As far as I'm aware, everybody in the public sector is working in one form or another.


    Nurses were on strike just a few months ago were they not. For more money wasn't it? And please don't act like the HSE is a bastion of highly performant worker efficiency. The union you are prob a member of makes damn sure it can't be.



    The stark reality is if the country cannot afford to pay you on the salaries and pensions you currently enjoy why not cut them in line with what in can afford. After all it was "benchmarking" during the Celtic Tiger that increased the salaries - why no "benchmarking" during the recession eh?


  • #104
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 8,647 ✭[Deleted User]


    purifol0 wrote: »
    Nurses were on strike just a few months ago were they not. For more money wasn't it? And please don't act like the HSE is a bastion of highly performant worker efficiency. The union you are prob a member of makes damn sure it can't be.



    The stark reality is if the country cannot afford to pay you on the salaries and pensions you currently enjoy why not cut them in line with what in can afford. After all it was "benchmarking" during the Celtic Tiger that increased the salaries - why no "benchmarking" during the recession eh?

    I could earn far more money in the private sector (so in reality, I'm saving the HSE money). So in your situation, the HSE should actually increase my wage (which I wouldn't mind at all)


  • #105
    purifol0
    Registered Users Posts: 739 ✭✭✭purifol0


    Deleted User wrote: »
    I could earn far more money in the private sector (so in reality, I'm saving the HSE money). So in your situation, the HSE should actually increase my wage (which I wouldn't mind at all)


    Prove it! Go and join the private sector.


    In addition, if that were true why stay put? If what they are paying you now keeps you from moving job, then by definition they are paying you enough.



    And when you say the private sector - which one? Ours or say Australia's?
    Because I think its a bit rich that we tax payers pay to train staff that don't work here. Don't you think?



    You never mentioned if you were a PS union member, Care to enlighten?


  • #106
    0lddog
    Registered Users Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭0lddog


    LuasSimon wrote: »
    Michael O Leary announced today all staff including himself are taking a 50% pay cut .
    Its easy for him on a Million a year down to 500K but to be cutting someone on 26K down to 13K a year is a lot different , surely those earning over 100K should take a greater cut than those earning just above minimum wage cabin crew etc.

    The company have 4 Billion in cash, surely they could pay their wages for a few weeks. Just more keep the small amount of rich superrich rich and drive the poor into the ground .

    Luas Simon, would you prefer that the staff were treated the way Qantas, SAS and others do it ?

    https://simpleflying.com/sas-operation-suspension/

    https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-03-19/qantas-has-just-stood-down-20000-staff.-how-can-they-do-that/12069964

    ( i.e. Bye Bye now. No job here for you )


  • #107
    LuasSimon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,208 ✭✭✭LuasSimon


    0lddog wrote: »
    Luas Simon, would you prefer that the staff were treated the way Qantas, SAS and others do it ?

    https://simpleflying.com/sas-operation-suspension/

    https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-03-19/qantas-has-just-stood-down-20000-staff.-how-can-they-do-that/12069964

    ( i.e. Bye Bye now. No job here for you

    Teachers can sit at home on full pay but poor cabin crew of Ryanair on buttons have it halved .

    Same old old Ireland , look after the rich and public servants.


  • #108
    Salary Negotiator
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,148 ✭✭✭Salary Negotiator


    LuasSimon wrote: »

    Teachers can sit at home on full pay but poor cabin crew of Ryanair on buttons have it halved .

    Same old old Ireland , look after the rich and public servants.

    Teachers are working, I doubt cabin crew are.


  • #109
    purifol0
    Registered Users Posts: 739 ✭✭✭purifol0


    A real issue is that while we can see how much cash Ryanair has because its owned by shareholders, there's plenty of Irish companies doing VERY well for themselves but since they are privately owned their employees can be kept in the dark about this.

    Again govt should just legislate for open books. This would also give prospective employees a better expectation of how much to ask for in salary negotiations.


  • #110
    CIARAN_BOYLE
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 14,599 Mod ✭✭✭✭CIARAN_BOYLE


    Salary Negotiator wrote: »
    Teachers are working, I doubt cabin crew are.

    Some teachers are.

    Some aren't.


  • #111
    0lddog
    Registered Users Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭0lddog


    @LuasSimon, read my post 32 again. Its about what other airlines are doing ( SAS, QANTAS et al ). Would you have Ryanair layoff its staff rather than a 50% cut in pay for them ?


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  • #112
    Uncle Pierre
    Registered Users Posts: 1,443 ✭✭✭Uncle Pierre


    Wondering at this stage if this is a thread for people with a chip on their shoulders about Ryanair, or a chip on their shoulders about the public sector, many of whom are working harder than ever to deal with this crisis. I'm not just talking about those who are normally on the front line anyway, but also civil servants in the roles that are usually dismissed as "handy numbers". If they haven't been redeployed yet to help with contact tracing, social welfare application processing, etc., then they're taking on the duties of colleagues who have left their usual roles to take on those tasks.

    Either way, it's a thread for people with chips on their shoulders. So I'm out.


  • #113
    Beasty
    Administrators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 75,112 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Beasty


    Thread merged - this is an employment/employer issue, not just a Ryanair-slagging topic


  • #114
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 7,712 ✭✭✭[Deleted User]


    Half pay for most of them is as good as no job. They only want people to quit.


  • #115
    Allinall
    Registered Users Posts: 6,523 ✭✭✭Allinall


    ReginaldSmythV wrote: »
    Half pay for most of them is as good as no job. They only want people to quit.

    That’s not the way things work.


  • #116
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 7,712 ✭✭✭[Deleted User]


    Allinall wrote: »
    That’s not the way things work.

    It is in reality rather than on paper though. I know very little of boards live there though.


  • #117
    wazzer1
    Registered Users Posts: 336 ✭✭wazzer1


    CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »
    It's for April and May. Flying staff won't be working. Staff are getting full pay for March despite not working for a lot of it.

    It's important that executive staff are working full time. Many admin grades will be working full time while others will not be working. Quiet a few pilots will be doi g training courses during the downtime to qualify on alternate airplane types.

    The cabin crew though will be off work with 50% pay.

    AFAIK in their head office alot of the roles are being split into shifts, so people will only be working half the time they usually are


  • #118
    Water John
    Registered Users Posts: 21,103 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    Know of a pharma co, that has split its staff. One half on site the other half working from home. If any of the on site staff get Covid 19 they will swap the staff.


  • #119
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭[Deleted User]


    purifol0 wrote: »
    The stark reality is if the country cannot afford to pay you on the salaries and pensions you currently enjoy why not cut them in line with what in can afford. After all it was "benchmarking" during the Celtic Tiger that increased the salaries - why no "benchmarking" during the recession eh?

    Yawn


  • #120
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 8,647 ✭[Deleted User]


    purifol0 wrote: »
    Prove it! Go and join the private sector.


    In addition, if that were true why stay put? If what they are paying you now keeps you from moving job, then by definition they are paying you enough.



    And when you say the private sector - which one? Ours or say Australia's?
    Because I think its a bit rich that we tax payers pay to train staff that don't work here. Don't you think?



    You never mentioned if you were a PS union member, Care to enlighten?

    Sorry. I was busy doing hospital work. Just home. I'm not a union member. I work in hospital because I enjoy helping people. I'm trying to improve patient safety in the HSE. It's work that I find interesting.

    I was never somebody who was motivated by money. I am a big believer in working for the greater good. I deal with mostly socially disadvantaged people (and I hope I make some difference in their lives).

    I don't understand the connection to Australia. Surely, an accountant could move to Australia and work privately and you could make the same argument.


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  • #121
    purifol0
    Registered Users Posts: 739 ✭✭✭purifol0


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Sorry. I was busy doing hospital work. Just home. I'm not a union member. I work in hospital because I enjoy helping people. I'm trying to improve patient safety in the HSE. It's work that I find interesting.

    I was never somebody who was motivated by money. I am a big believer in working for the greater good. I deal with mostly socially disadvantaged people (and I hope I make some difference in their lives).

    I don't understand the connection to Australia. Surely, an accountant could move to Australia and work privately and you could make the same argument.


    Wait are you saying you a re a full time HSE employee. Like with a harp on your payslip? The HSE has 100K direct employees and is nealry 100% unionised. This would make you an outlier.



    Accountants are not trained in the public sector to work in the public sector. and work seriously long hours for big firms to pass their exams. In the same vein apprentices learning trades work for private companies for years before qualifying.


    Student Nurses get paid 14K courtesy the tax payer to do their degree.


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