Christianity can't be done alone.

ChrisJ84 · 27-01-2020 09:17PM

antiskeptic wrote: »

@ Tatranska

The context is the goal of sinless perfection. I'm not saying God can't/doesn't deliver individuals from particular sin patterns. But it is not typical and it is not something ongoing such that we should expect continual deliverance from sin patterns in the approach to sinless perfection.

It's important to define our categories carefully. In Christ, our sanctification is perfect and complete already - that is how God sees us because of what Jesus has done. In our experience, sanctification is incomplete but progressive - and we really can make progress that is pleasing to God (Kevin De Young has written a helpful book on this, The Hole in our Holiness).

There's a paradox here - the more we make progress in holiness, the more we realise the gulf that exists between us and a truly holy God. And we're never going to be perfect in this life, or anything close to it. But our holiness, while imperfect, is nonetheless real and pleasing to God.

antiskeptic · 27-01-2020 09:44PM

ChrisJ84 wrote: »

It's important to define our categories carefully. In Christ, our sanctification is perfect and complete already - that is how God sees us because of what Jesus has done. In our experience, sanctification is incomplete but progressive - and we really can make progress that is pleasing to God (Kevin De Young has written a helpful book on this, The Hole in our Holiness).

There's a paradox here - the more we make progress in holiness, the more we realise the gulf that exists between us and a truly holy God. And we're never going to be perfect in this life, or anything close to it. But our holiness, while imperfect, is nonetheless real and pleasing to God.

All true. But Tatranska's suggestion was that deliverence from all our sin (let's just focus on embedded, sticky, oft repeating sin) was a real prospect. Something not only to be sought for but obtainable.

I'm not speaking of our 'technical' position by virtue of our placement in Christ. I'm speaking of our actual day to day activity, awash with sin. As you say, the 'better' we get the bigger the gulf. Not for nothing enlightened creatures realising themselves to be the worst of sinners (eg: Paul, Bunyon)

I see no basis for tat's idea. Certainly not from a logic that sees exhortation as meaning: that which is exhorted can be obtained (to the degree Tatranska holds possible).

God/Jesus exhorted the impossible. Go and sin no more? Ha!

uck51js9zml2yt · 27-01-2020 09:53PM

machaseh wrote: »

Homosexuality is not a sin.

Sexual immorality is, fornication is. If it weren't scripture wouldnt have dealt with it.
If homosexuality was fine, then God wouldnt have destroyed Sodom & Gomorrah, nor would he have said what he said in Romans about it.

But if thats what you want, no one is stopping you.

machaseh · 28-01-2020 08:09AM

Emerson Ambitious Speedway wrote: »

Sexual immorality is, fornication is. If it weren't scripture wouldnt have dealt with it.
If homosexuality was fine, then God wouldnt have destroyed Sodom & Gomorrah, nor would he have said what he said in Romans about it.

But if thats what you want, no one is stopping you.

Ok boomer.

hinault · 29-01-2020 05:28PM

theological wrote: »

A thought and a thread.

I was looking through Hebrews and particularly chapter 10 when the author tells us to keep going in the Christian faith.

For context in Hebrews we've just seen Jesus being spoken about as the perfect once for all sacrifice for sin and in the next few verses we've seen that falling away from Jesus is dangerous.

The solution for keeping going as a Christian is to stick with the people God has brought to you in the church to keep going. The author tells us to hold fast to the confession of our hope without wavering in verse 23. He implores Christians to consider how to stir one another up to love and good works and says in verse 25 that Christians should not neglect to meet together so that we can encourage one another to keep going to the final day.

For Christians -

Is this how we see church?

Do you find opportunities to meet with other Christians during the week?

Why is it essential that Christians work in community?

Interesting OP.

Catholic Church requires all catholics to attend Sunday Mass. Primarily Mass is the sacrifice made by Jesus Christ. It is Jesus Christ present in mind, in body, in divinity and in spirit, at the moment of consecration of the Mass.

Therefore as individual catholics and as a congregation the importance of attending Mass is two fold : one being in the real presence of God, and two being in the real presence of God with fellow catholics simultaneously.

marieholmfan · 29-01-2020 05:36PM

Emerson Ambitious Speedway wrote: »

You've obviously never read what God says a out homosexuality in Romans, or you have and don't believe it.
Christianity isn't "spiritual" only...its practical and there are certain characteristics and changes expected in a life who claims to be Christian shown in the Bible.
If those characteristics aren't there then it doesn't matter what a person says they are. It's just not true.

Romans merely says that homosexual acts (not identity) is dishonourable.

marieholmfan · 29-01-2020 05:38PM

Emerson Ambitious Speedway wrote: »

Sexual immorality is, fornication is. If it weren't scripture wouldnt have dealt with it.
If homosexuality was fine, then God wouldnt have destroyed Sodom & Gomorrah, nor would he have said what he said in Romans about it.

But if thats what you want, no one is stopping you.

It's not for sodomy that Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed.

And it's Paul who says homosexual acts are dishonourable not God.

theological · 29-01-2020 05:41PM

If possible it'd be super to keep the thread on the topic of doing Christianity alone and whether that is possible.

There are loads of threads on the Christianity forum about sexuality.

marieholmfan · 29-01-2020 05:44PM

theological wrote: »

If possible it'd be super to keep the thread on the topic of doing Christianity alone and whether that is possible.

There are loads of threads on the Christianity forum about sexuality.

Apologies!

Of course it is possible but why is it desirable?
To see other flawed people at mass or at service or whatever reminds us that God wants us all and it's easy to be saved.

It helps break the vanity of sloth.

ChrisJ84 · 31-01-2020 08:49PM

antiskeptic wrote: »

All true. But Tatranska's suggestion was that deliverence from all our sin (let's just focus on embedded, sticky, oft repeating sin) was a real prospect. Something not only to be sought for but obtainable.

I'm not speaking of our 'technical' position by virtue of our placement in Christ. I'm speaking of our actual day to day activity, awash with sin. As you say, the 'better' we get the bigger the gulf. Not for nothing enlightened creatures realising themselves to be the worst of sinners (eg: Paul, Bunyon)

I see no basis for tat's idea. Certainly not from a logic that sees exhortation as meaning: that which is exhorted can be obtained (to the degree Tatranska holds possible).

God/Jesus exhorted the impossible. Go and sin no more? Ha!

I agree completely that we can never hope to be sin-free this side of glory. But yet, sin is no linger permissible nor inevitable for the Christian, so we should expect to see fruit as we go on.

I'll leave it to Tatranska to add to / clarify what he was saying, but I didn't understand him to be too far from what I've outlined.

And to get back to the OP, the only way we can hope to make progress like this is in community with other believers. Yes, church will always be messy, frustrating and imperfect, but we simply aren't given the option to check out and go it alone.

uck51js9zml2yt · 01-02-2020 01:50AM

ChrisJ84 wrote: »

I agree completely that we can never hope to be sin-free this side of glory. But yet, sin is no linger permissible nor inevitable for the Christian, so we should expect to see fruit as we go on.

I'll leave it to Tatranska to add to / clarify what he was saying, but I didn't understand him to be too far from what I've outlined.

And to get back to the OP, the only way we can hope to make progress like this is in community with other believers. Yes, church will always be messy, frustrating and imperfect, but we simply aren't given the option to check out and go it alone.

God expects those who name His Name to depart from iniquity to quote the KJV.
He also expects us to be holy as He is but he says that IF we sin we have an advocate.

By saying if, he's saying it shouldn't be the norm. Why else use the word "if".

antiskeptic · 01-02-2020 06:20PM

Emerson Ambitious Speedway wrote: »

God expects those who name His Name to depart from iniquity to quote the KJV.
He also expects us to be holy as He is but he says that IF we sin we have an advocate.

By saying if, he's saying it shouldn't be the norm. Why else use the word "if".

"You should be on spiritual meat but you are still on milk" Paul says, taking folk to task.

A person tending towards the milk end of the spectrum is a like a learner driver. A driving instructor says "if you make a mistake I'll put you right". There will be shed loads of mistakes. Mistakes will be the norm.

The use of 'if' says nothing about expections as to frequency of occurrance. And cannot be used in support of a doctrine of 'sinless perfection'. Whether expectation set or it obtainable (or even it near obtainable).

uck51js9zml2yt · 02-02-2020 02:44PM

antiskeptic wrote: »

"You should be on spiritual meat but you are still on milk" Paul says, taking folk to task.

A person tending towards the milk end of the spectrum is a like a learner driver. A driving instructor says "if you make a mistake I'll put you right". There will be shed loads of mistakes. Mistakes will be the norm.

The use of 'if' says nothing about expections as to frequency of occurrance. And cannot be used in support of a doctrine of 'sinless perfection'. Whether expectation set or it obtainable (or even it near obtainable).

I don't believe in sinless perfection and can't find anything in scripture to support it.
What I do find is Gods command to His Church to be holy and to walk in a manner worthy of Him who called us.
As I said, it's a sadistic God who says be holy as He is if we can't be.

ChrisJ84 · 02-02-2020 07:49PM

Emerson Ambitious Speedway wrote: »

I don't believe in sinless perfection and can't find anything in scripture to support it.
What I do find is Gods command to His Church to be holy and to walk in a manner worthy of Him who called us.
As I said, it's a sadistic God who says be holy as He is if we can't be.

I think you're right, if our new birth doesn't make any difference in our lives then you'd have to ask in what sense God's power is at work. Most helpful way I've heard this put is that our sincere obedience as Christians, while imperfect, is nonetheless real and pleasing to God.

antiskeptic · 03-02-2020 12:20AM

Emerson Ambitious Speedway wrote: »

I don't believe in sinless perfection..

As I said, it's a sadistic God who says be holy as He is if we can't be.

We will be. In glory and not before.

We can't achieve sinless perfection in this life, you agree. Yet you also say we can be holy as he is holy (because, we agree, God isn't sadistic)

Paradox?? We can't be sinlessly perfect, but we can be as holy as he (aka sinlessly perfect) because he instructs us to be.

Could you explain?

uck51js9zml2yt · 03-02-2020 08:22AM

antiskeptic wrote: »

We will be. In glory and not before.

We can't achieve sinless perfection in this life, you agree. Yet you also say we can be holy as he is holy (because, we agree, God isn't sadistic)

Paradox?? We can't be sinlessly perfect, but we can be as holy as he (aka sinlessly perfect) because he instructs us to be.

Could you explain?

Scripture says that if we walk in the spirit we won't fulfill the lusts of the flesh. Problem is, we don't walk as we should.

So you're saying,God tells us to be holy knowing we can't possibly be in this life. Sadism at its best!

antiskeptic · 03-02-2020 08:24AM

@ Chris.

The 'weight of scripture' would, I agree, say man cannot chose God. That his will is bent away from God.

There are comparatively few elements of scripture which can be taken to suggest God choses man.

The Reformed position appears to conclude that since man cannot chose God, therefore God must chose man.

-

A fisherman attempts to catch every fish in the sea. Does this mean every fish will be caught? Not necessarily, for fish can eacape the attempt.

Whilst no fish wills being caught, some fight sufficient to escape the attempt. They will it not. And so remain in the sea whilst others are caught, against their will and die.

God not choosing man (rather, he attempts to catch all men) man not choosing God doesn't confound scripture. It accommodates the 'total depravity' idea and accommodates the weight of scripture which indicates God after all men, rather than an elect.

P.S. this fisherman analogy isn't my own idea!

theological · 03-02-2020 08:29AM

antiskeptic wrote: »

@ Chris.

The 'weight of scripture' would, I agree, say man cannot chose God. That his will is bent away from God.

There are comparatively few elements of scripture which can be taken to suggest God choses man.

The Reformed position appears to conclude that since man cannot chose God, therefore God must chose man.

-

A fisherman attempts to catch every fish in the sea. Does this mean every fish will be caught? Not necessarily, for fish can eacape the attempt.

Whilst no fish wills being caught, some fight sufficient to escape the attempt. They will it not. And so remain in the sea whilst others are caught, against their will and die.

God not choosing man (rather, he attempts to catch all men) man not choosing God.

P.S. this fisherman analogy isn't my own idea

I think your thinking requires a watering down of God's sovereignty to work.

I think this is probably one for the other thread.

This thread is more on the discussion can Christianity be done alone. The answer Scripturally seems to be an emphatic no.

The work of sanctification is a long term work but God is making us more like Christ daily even if the completed work isn't seen in our lifetime (Philippians 1:6)

antiskeptic · 03-02-2020 09:50AM

theological wrote: »

I think your thinking requires a watering down of God's sovereignty to work.

I think this is probably one for the other thread.

Indeed. That's what I'll do.

I don't see how God's sovereignty is watered down. Unless your starting position is that sovereignty means God choses man.

As I say, the Reformed view is scripturally strong on the total depravity aspect. And very weak on the God choses who to save aspect. And the sovereignty element rests on this latter element.

This thread is more on the discussion can Christianity be done alone. The answer Scripturally seems to be an emphatic no.

Which is no support at all for the model of church which has evolved.

The work of sanctification is a long term work but God is making us more like Christ daily even if the completed work isn't seen in our lifetime (Philippians 1:6)

So we cannot be holy as he is holy in our lifetime? Or can we be? For if we can be, we would see the completed work in our lifetime.

Could you clarify which it is?

theological · 03-02-2020 12:05PM

antiskeptic wrote: »

So we cannot be holy as he is holy in our lifetime? Or can we be? For if we can be, we would see the completed work in our lifetime.

Could you clarify which it is?

I don't need to clarify beyond what Scripture says.

1 John 3:1-3 wrote:

See what kind of love the Father has given to us, that we should be called children of God; and so we are. The reason why the world does not know us is that it did not know him. Beloved, we are God's children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is. And everyone who thus hopes in him purifies himself as he is pure.

Completion will happen at the day of the Lord. That does not mean we should rejoice in our sin in the meantime.

ChrisJ84 · 03-02-2020 02:32PM

antiskeptic wrote: »

We will be. In glory and not before.

We can't achieve sinless perfection in this life, you agree. Yet you also say we can be holy as he is holy (because, we agree, God isn't sadistic)

Paradox?? We can't be sinlessly perfect, but we can be as holy as he (aka sinlessly perfect) because he instructs us to be.

Could you explain?

I assume you're referencing 1 Peter 1:16, which cites Leviticus 11:44? Those verses don't call us to be holy in precisely the same way as God is holy (even in glory this won't be the case - God's holiness goes beyond the mere absence of sin). Rather, they are calling us to be holy because the lord who has called us is holy. Our holiness is far from perfect, but in Christ it is still still real and pleasing to God.

And ought to be growing, as a good tree puts out good fruit. To pick up on one of the other recent themes of discussion round here, this is one of the signs that our profession of faith is genuine.

antiskeptic · 03-02-2020 06:19PM

ChrisJ84 wrote: »

I assume you're referencing 1 Peter 1:16, which cites Leviticus 11:44? Those verses don't call us to be holy in precisely the same way as God is holy (even in glory this won't be the case - God's holiness goes beyond the mere absence of sin). Rather, they are calling us to be holy because the lord who has called us is holy. Our holiness is far from perfect, but in Christ it is still still real and pleasing to God.

And ought to be growing, as a good tree puts out good fruit. To pick up on one of the other recent themes of discussion round here, this is one of the signs that our profession of faith is genuine.

Apologies for wasting time. I mixed tantraska (who appeared to be saying sinless perfection was obtainable) with theological (who, it appears didn't). We agree its race to the sinless summit, without our reaching it this sideof death.

theological · 03-02-2020 06:23PM

antiskeptic wrote: »

Apologies for wasting time. I mixed tantraska (who appeared to be saying sinless perfection was obtainable) with theological (who, it appears didn't). We agree its race to the sinless summit, without our reaching it this sideof death.

Emerson Ambitious Speedway was arguing we can make real progress in this life in respect to sin. That's true.

I don't disagree with him by saying that the work won't be completed until we meet Christ.

We need to be careful not to misrepresent others.

uck51js9zml2yt · 03-02-2020 07:15PM

antiskeptic wrote: »

Apologies for wasting time. I mixed tantraska (who appeared to be saying sinless perfection was obtainable) with theological (who, it appears didn't). We agree its race to the sinless summit, without our reaching it this sideof death.

I never said I believed in sinless perfection either. Apology accepted

I do believe that I can live a life without consciously sinning. I'm not saying I do but if we walk in the spirit we won't fulfill the lusts of the flesh.

If we walk in the light as He is, we have an advocate.

antiskeptic · 03-02-2020 08:11PM

Emerson Ambitious Speedway wrote: »

I never said I believed in sinless perfection either. Apology accepted

I do believe that I can live a life without consciously sinning. I'm not saying I do but if we walk in the spirit we won't fulfill the lusts of the flesh.

Which merely kicks the can down the road. You believe sinless perfection of the conscious kind. You believe the If condition (for walking in the Spirit) can be perpetually sustained.

There is no ongoing, continuous, uninterrupted sense suggested possible by an "if". Walking is ongoing. If we walk, and so long as we walk then... If we don't then...

Both are possible as we travel along.

Questions:

Where do you get the idea (scripturally) that the walking in can be perpetual and ongoing uninterrupted?

Whatis unconscious sin. Like examples of.

If we walk in the Spirit, does this not prevent unconscious sin (whatever that is)

uck51js9zml2yt · 03-02-2020 08:38PM

antiskeptic wrote: »

Questions:

Where do you get the idea (scripturally) that the walking in can be perpetual and ongoing-uninterrupted?

Let me answer a question with a question.
Where do you get the idea that we can't?

antiskeptic · 03-02-2020 09:33PM

Emerson Ambitious Speedway wrote: »

Let me answer a question with a question.
Where do you get the idea that we can't?

There is no biblical warrant for it.

For instance, an exhortation (e.g. to be holy as he is holy) does not contain sufficient within it to enable the conclusion 'perfection (conscious at any rate) obtainable'.

That's laying an idea onto scripture, not extracting it from scripture.

Unconscious sin. What is this?

Christianity can't be done alone.

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