The Potential Future of BusConnects

MrAbyss · 15-01-2020 5:42pm #1

I know many folks are very positive, but buses in urban areas can't be the mainstay of public transport. Even with segregated corridors there are too many external impacts upon urban bus systems.

I think BusConnects is just another reason to not spend money on the Metro or DART Underground. Another more elegant version of 'buses are enough'

https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/news/bristol-news/first-bus-boss-blames-appalling-3740118?fbclid=IwAR0pYUUPyo22BE5E7T5DaRtgpR7dZn2JMYzQF9Kv8xTVtczcrnWRq9eE4cY

bk · 15-01-2020 6:16pm

I disagree, it is important to remember, that even in cities with excellent Metro systems, buses still play a key part in the city. Look at London with it's fantastic underground system, yet London Bus still carries more people every day that it.

The reality is buses, coaches, trams, metros, heavy rail and even walking, cycling and escooters all play a very important part in a cities integrated transport network. They aren't competitors, they are all part of the solution. They all need to be developed and given priority over cars which are incredibly inefficient compared to them all.

cdaly_ · 15-01-2020 6:19pm

MrAbyss wrote: »

I know many folks are very positive, but buses in urban areas can't be the mainstay of public transport. Even with segregated corridors there are too many external impacts upon urban bus systems.

I think BusConnects is just another reason to not spend money on the Metro or DART Underground. Another more elegant version of 'buses are enough'

https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/news/bristol-news/first-bus-boss-blames-appalling-3740118?fbclid=IwAR0pYUUPyo22BE5E7T5DaRtgpR7dZn2JMYzQF9Kv8xTVtczcrnWRq9eE4cY

https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/news/bristol-news/first-bus-boss-blames-appalling-3740118?fbclid=IwAR0pYUUPyo22BE5E7T5DaRtgpR7dZn2JMYzQF9Kv8xTVtczcrnWRq9eE4cY
"the buses just keep getting stuck in traffic, roadworks and terrible congestion."
"areas of increasingly chronic congestion"
"we are confronting appalling disruption to our lives as a result of traffic congestion"

Conveniently though, Dart/Metro (in two narrow corridors) means we don't have to address the elephant in the room of private cars causing chronic congestion/gridlock...

devnull · 15-01-2020 8:37pm

MrAbyss wrote: »

I know many folks are very positive, but buses in urban areas can't be the mainstay of public transport. Even with segregated corridors there are too many external impacts upon urban bus systems.

I think BusConnects is just another reason to not spend money on the Metro or DART Underground. Another more elegant version of 'buses are enough'

https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/news/bristol-news/first-bus-boss-blames-appalling-3740118?fbclid=IwAR0pYUUPyo22BE5E7T5DaRtgpR7dZn2JMYzQF9Kv8xTVtczcrnWRq9eE4cY

Improving our bus network is relatively quick to do though in comparison to giving the whole of the city a metro and a DART link. The simple fact is that the issues with congestion would happen over the city way before we have time to and can afford get one or two new lines up and running, let alone anything more, therefore bus has to be part of the answer for Dublin, even though I would agree that it is not the long term answer and we need to expand our rail and metro options in the future. Unfortunately it can't happen overnight, I only wish it could but it's not realistic to think that.

You also need to understand what is going on in Bristol and the level of roadworks. Coming out of Temple Meads towards the end of last year it was a challenge for even a pedestrian to find their way from the station to the city centre because of the sheer amount of roadworks, lane closures, road closures, temporary one way systems, temporary lights. You could often see exactly where you want to go, but had to take the most tortious and indirect route. The suburbs are not much better. You then have a perfect cocktail for congestion getting in and getting out is a total nightmare.

In an ideal fantasy world where you forget about the cost of building a metro line here there and everywhere and ignore the time taken to do it, you'd put it before bus every time. However we are not in a fantasy world and we need to be realistic with what is possible. We are where we are now, ideally we should have started building a metro system years ago, but unfortunately poor decisions by politicians and reckless spending which put the country into financial crisis have meant we don't have anywhere near the non road based transport infrastructure we should have. We need to catch up, but unfortunately we're not going to have a big metro/rail overnight so the bus is going to be here to stay for many in our society as their primary mode of transport for a long time yet which means we have to tackle the usage of private cars.

Xterminator · 16-01-2020 10:40am

Metro is not a panacea for all the ills of public transport, and its underinvestment. and it is not an either or choice.

donvito99 · 16-01-2020 2:00pm

Also forgotten here is the massive investment in fairly decent cycling infrastructure provided for by Bus Connects.

cdaly_ · 16-01-2020 2:14pm

donvito99 wrote: »

Also forgotten here is the massive investment in fairly decent cycling infrastructure provided for by Bus Connects.

Alas, this appears to be more a case of 'get them out of the way' cycling 'infrastructure' than 'fairly decent'...

donvito99 · 16-01-2020 2:17pm

cdaly_ wrote: »

Alas, this appears to be more a case of 'get them out of the way' cycling 'infrastructure' than 'fairly decent'...

Hence 'fairly'. Although the junctions look to mirror a dutch/Manchester model as part of the new drawings which is an improvement to some.

bigar · 16-01-2020 5:54pm

I will be very surprised if it will actually happen. Not that long ago there was Swiftway which was very similar and disappeared without a trace.

Nothing will ever come from changes in Public Transport if there is no will to greatly reduce car traffic in the city centre.

dashcamdanny · 17-01-2020 11:19am

bk wrote: »

I disagree, it is important to remember, that even in cities with excellent Metro systems, buses still play a key part in the city. Look at London with it's fantastic underground system, yet London Bus still carries more people every day that it.

The reality is buses, coaches, trams, metros, heavy rail and even walking, cycling and escooters all play a very important part in a cities integrated transport network. They aren't competitors, they are all part of the solution. They all need to be developed and given priority over cars which are incredibly inefficient compared to them all.

It's strange that motorcycles and scooters fail to get a mention these days , especially when they are the perfect solution for commuter belt residents and they simply get you around the city quicker than any other mode of transportation.

Lord Glentoran · 17-01-2020 11:28am

bk wrote: »

I disagree, it is important to remember, that even in cities with excellent Metro systems, buses still play a key part in the city. Look at London with it's fantastic underground system, yet London Bus still carries more people every day that it.

The reality is buses, coaches, trams, metros, heavy rail and even walking, cycling and escooters all play a very important part in a cities integrated transport network. They aren't competitors, they are all part of the solution. They all need to be developed and given priority over cars which are incredibly inefficient compared to them all.

Buses in London are a fill-in between trains and tubes for short journeys. If buses were used in London the way they are in Dublin as long radial routes no one would get anywhere.

CatInABox · 17-01-2020 11:56am

Lord Glentoran wrote: »

Buses in London are a fill-in between trains and tubes for short journeys. If buses were used in London the way they are in Dublin as long radial routes no one would get anywhere.

Having lived and commuted in London for years, bus are used for long journeys where they make sense.

Lord Glentoran · 17-01-2020 5:30pm

CatInABox wrote: »

Having lived and commuted in London for years, bus are used for long journeys where they make sense.

Well that’s an interesting perspective alright.

Last Stop · 17-01-2020 8:37pm

bk wrote: »

Look at London with it's fantastic underground system, yet London Bus still carries more people every day that it.

So many people use this fact without fully understanding what it is saying.
There are obviously far more buses and more bus routes in London than underground lines.
http://content.tfl.gov.uk/tfl-annual-report-and-statement-of-accounts-2018-19.pdf
Comparing them on a per km basis and the results speak for themselves.
Bus: 2220/480 = 4.625
Underground: 1384/85 = 16.472
Meaning that the underground carries 4 times as many people per km travelled

In the context of Busconnects what this means is that we should be looking at building more Luas lines and increasing the km travelled by Luas as it is 4x more efficient.

Yes Buses still have a major role to play but they should be used to fill the gaps rather than the main mode as it currently planned.

donvito99 · 17-01-2020 10:14pm

Last Stop wrote: »

So many people use this fact without fully understanding what it is saying.
There are obviously far more buses and more bus routes in London than underground lines.
http://content.tfl.gov.uk/tfl-annual-report-and-statement-of-accounts-2018-19.pdf
Comparing them on a per km basis and the results speak for themselves.
Bus: 2220/480 = 4.625
Underground: 1384/85 = 16.472
Meaning that the underground carries 4 times as many people per km travelled

In the context of Busconnects what this means is that we should be looking at building more Luas lines and increasing the km travelled by Luas as it is 4x more efficient.

Yes Buses still have a major role to play but they should be used to fill the gaps rather than the main mode as it currently planned.

Luas isn't on par with the London Underground so 4x efficiency is pie in the sky. The consider that Luas costs about 3 times as much as Bus Connects per km, without any provision for cyclists.

Sligo eye · 17-01-2020 10:27pm

donvito99 wrote: »

Luas isn't on par with the London Underground so 4x efficiency is pie in the sky. The consider that Luas costs about 3 times as much as Bus Connects per km, without any provision for cyclists.

I lived in outer London for nearly 30 years. The tube and rail are the backbones of public transport there. Buses fill the gap and get commuters to a rail or tube station.

In the context of Dublin, it is utter madness that Dart Underground is still on the proverbial long finger and Metro is years away. It’s about time we all stood up to the bus fetishists and pressed our wannabe TDs for real action to sort out Dublin’s transport issues. Bus Connects is no more than a sticking plaster over a gaping wound.

bk · 17-01-2020 11:40pm

Hold on a second, no one is saying that we shouldn't be building DART or Metrolink! Of course we should and they would equally end up the backbone of Dublin's public transport.

But even if we had both of those today, they would only service a fraction of the city. Are people seriously saying that every other part of Dublin, the over 100 bus routes, that won't have Metro/DART, should sit around with the existing bus network and no attempt at all on improving it?!!

I'm sorry, but that would be incredibly foolish. We DESPERATELY need BusConnects, just as much as we need Metro/DART.

donvito99 · 18-01-2020 12:00am

Sligo eye wrote: »

I lived in outer London for nearly 30 years. The tube and rail are the backbones of public transport there. Buses fill the gap and get commuters to a rail or tube station.

In the context of Dublin, it is utter madness that Dart Underground is still on the proverbial long finger and Metro is years away. It’s about time we all stood up to the bus fetishists and pressed our wannabe TDs for real action to sort out Dublin’s transport issues. Bus Connects is no more than a sticking plaster over a gaping wound.

A man who pushes the western rail corridor coming after "bus fetishists".

50% of all commutes to the City centre already made by bus, most Dubliners will benefit from Bus Connects (bus passengers and bicyclists) rather than an exclusive number of individuals who live along fantasy Luas corridors.

Sligo eye · 18-01-2020 12:21am

donvito99 wrote: »

A man who pushes the western rail corridor coming after "bus fetishists".

50% of all commutes to the City centre already made by bus, most Dubliners will benefit from Bus Connects (bus passengers and bicyclists) rather than an exclusive number of individuals who live along fantasy Luas corridors.

Sure, make it personal.

Last Stop · 18-01-2020 12:23am

donvito99 wrote: »

Luas isn't on par with the London Underground so 4x efficiency is pie in the sky. The consider that Luas costs about 3 times as much as Bus Connects per km, without any provision for cyclists.

You sure about that?

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-tranom/transportomnibus2018/publictransport/

Bus 143104/54906 = 2.6

Luas (2 lines combined) 41,836,968/4,065,479 = 10.29

10.29/2.6 = 3.95

So even at 3 times the price, it’s still more efficient.

Last Stop · 18-01-2020 12:26am

bk wrote: »

Hold on a second, no one is saying that we shouldn't be building DART or Metrolink! Of course we should and they would equally end up the backbone of Dublin's public transport.

But even if we had both of those today, they would only service a fraction of the city. Are people seriously saying that every other part of Dublin, the over 100 bus routes, that won't have Metro/DART, should sit around with the existing bus network and no attempt at all on improving it?!!

I'm sorry, but that would be incredibly foolish. We DESPERATELY need BusConnects, just as much as we need Metro/DART.

This is the problem; there’s a huge difference between improving the currently dysfunctional bus system and spending billions on using the bus as the main mode of transport. The network redesign on its own significantly improves the network. Add in a additional Luas lines and Dublin is a long way to having some sort of functional PT system.

Kermit.de.frog · 21-01-2020 2:21pm

Fianna Fail are telling people at the doors in Dublin they are going to scrap bus connects and metro.

Complete gombeens.

By the looks of the polls we are screwed again and I don't believe either will happen.

Breezer · 22-01-2020 1:19am

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Fianna Fail are telling people at the doors in Dublin they are going to scrap bus connects and metro.

Complete gombeens.

By the looks of the polls we are screwed again and I don't believe either will happen.

This is the Metro Fianna Fáil came up with??? At least I think they did. It’s been going so long I’ve lost track.

donvito99 · 22-01-2020 11:44am

Shay Brennan tweeted that his priorities are MetroLink (incl. Green Line conponent) and Bus Connects. So it's not all Fianna Fail.

However Jim O'Callaghan and Deirdre Conroy have intimated that the whole Bus Connects scheme, covering the entirety of the city, should be scrapped in favour of a massively expensive underground metro for one part of the city (and win seats in that part of the city). The reality is that that Metro won't happen for generations.

It's maddening...

Kermit.de.frog · 22-01-2020 1:51pm

donvito99 wrote: »

Shay Brennan tweeted that his priorities are MetroLink (incl. Green Line conponent) and Bus Connects. So it's not all Fianna Fail.

However Jim O'Callaghan and Deirdre Conroy have intimated that the whole Bus Connects scheme, covering the entirety of the city, should be scrapped in favour of a massively expensive underground metro for one part of the city (and win seats in that part of the city). The reality is that that Metro won't happen for generations.

It's maddening...

The project is very advanced. It's due to go for planning in Q2 and start construction next year.

It would be disgraceful if such a vital thing for Dublin is set aside AGAIN.

Enraging. But it's just another reason not to vote for Fianna Fáil.

namloc1980 · 22-01-2020 2:24pm

You just know that a FF Minister for Transport in a new Govt will immediately call for a review of BusConnects and Metro. It's written in the stars.

donvito99 · 22-01-2020 2:33pm

namloc1980 wrote: »

You just know that a FF Minister for Transport in a new Govt will immediately call for a review of BusConnects and Metro. It's written in the stars.

I think Metro has a chance.

Bus Connects, even in its massively curtailed second iteration, is under serious threat.

Thelonious Monk · 23-01-2020 12:01pm

dashcamdanny wrote: »

It's strange that motorcycles and scooters fail to get a mention these days , especially when they are the perfect solution for commuter belt residents and they simply get you around the city quicker than any other mode of transportation.

I don't get this either. I cycle about 10k to work everyday and that may not be for everyone, but a woman I work with comes from Kinsealy to here in D2 every day on a 125cc motorbike and she's here in about 25 mins every day, rain hail or sunshine. If I was coming in from somewhere like Swords, it'd be motorbike all the way.
I think half these eejits sat in single occupancy cars in the traffic every day only have themselves to blame, but I also think most of them don't actually mind it at all.

Tomrota · 25-01-2020 7:25pm

namloc1980 wrote: »

You just know that a FF Minister for Transport in a new Govt will immediately call for a review of BusConnects and Metro. It's written in the stars.

Does anyone have any idea who would be the FF transport minister?

Idbatterim · 25-01-2020 7:30pm

Im voting FG and greens, this BS from FF is the final straw. I can see Dublin metro being in a position to be signed off tomorrow after years of the usual BS and they would likely cancel it if they could, even in a money no object scenario!

Peregrine · 25-01-2020 7:58pm

Tomrota wrote: »

Does anyone have any idea who would be the FF transport minister?

Marc McSharry is the current Transport, Tourism and Sport spokesperson. Robert Troy before him and Timmy Dooley before that.

Dooley doesn't have a good rep at the moment after the voting scandal. John Lahart is the Dublin spokesperson and dabdles in transport but he's new to the front bench.

The Potential Future of BusConnects

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