Over 1 Million in Detention Camps in China

SafeSurfer · 25-11-2019 1:39am #1

The Hong Kong protests, revelations about forced detention camps. Is this a cynical escalation of the Cold War with China by the West or the genuine exposure of an evil empire?

Berserker5 · 25-11-2019 1:41am

SafeSurfer wrote: »

The Hong Kong protests, revelations about forced detention camps. Is this a cynical escalation of the Cold War with China by the West or the genuine exposure of an evil empire?

You forgot AliExpress

theguzman · 25-11-2019 4:50am

The Chinese, A great bunch of lads!

[Deleted User] · 25-11-2019 7:46am

SafeSurfer wrote: »

The Hong Kong protests, revelations about forced detention camps. Is this a cynical escalation of the Cold War with China by the West or the genuine exposure of an evil empire?

"Forced" (find that amusing since who would volunteer to go to a detention camp)

Detention camps are nothing new in China. They're also considered to be prisons here. Just as you could call prisons in the US or many other countries... guess Guantanamo Bay isn't offensive enough to complain about.

The HK protests are an exercise in stupidity since HK is Chinese territory and they have no choice but to accept being part of China. It's a bit like Texas telling the Federal government that they want to secede and embrace fascism. Agreements were broken by Beijing but then, China has a long history of breaking agreements that don't suit them. So too do a variety of western nations.

As for an evil empire... who are you comparing them to? I'd consider them a few steps up from Soviet Russia. China hasn't been engaged in any wars since Korea, except for repeated minor skirmishes with their neighbors over contested lands going back to British colonial days. They're a totalitarian state but then democracy isn't particularly representative of the people's will either.

As for a Cold war... consider looking at a map of China in Asia, and then place a marker for every US airforce base, missile base, or any base that contains US forces capable of striking the Chinese mainland. The US nearly caused WW3 over missiles in Cuba, but we can't be thinking that the US or others have been aggressive in their behavior towards China.

Don't get me wrong. China has a crap-ton of issues. I've been here for over a decade, and have spoken to many people who have either themselves been on the wrong side with the government or their families have. However, I don't see this evil empire junk.

I do see a serious amount of hypocrisy and double standards though, by western people. They'll ignore the behavior of the US but expect China to meet western standards of behavior. China is an Asian power, following Asian logic, and has no interest in being held accountable for a standard of behavior that western nations often fail to meet themselves. They're a superpower, in all but name, and superpowers do whatever they want.

Rikand · 25-11-2019 8:02am

Jaysis, are you really gone 10 years ?

Where has that time gone!

Yurt2 · 25-11-2019 9:00am

Klaz, you could do with reading up on the debate on Lee Kwan Yew and 'Asian values.'

Namely, it's a convenient fig leaf for despots of the east to have their way and claim 'culture' when they are challenged (a bit like Pavee Point).

How Japan, Korea and Taiwan have relatively healthy multi-party democracies (with Malaysia and Indonesia being glass half-full stories) despite their 'Asian values' frontal-lobe constantly speaking over their shoulder is a mystery.

I think you've drank the kool-aid.

Human rights are universal, and there is pretty much no such thing as 'Asian values' in an incredibly diverse region.

_Brian · 25-11-2019 9:05am

People need to remember that no matter the western style front you see in Beijing, China is a hard line communist country. Much of the population live in fear of the party, speak to people there and they will be very afraid to speak their mind particularly if it goes against party teachings.

The party also knows it will come under no more than token pressure over this because western civilisation is addicted to and depends on the cheap tat manufactured there.

randomspud · 25-11-2019 9:43am

Yurt! wrote: »

Human rights are universal, and there is pretty much no such thing as 'Asian values' in an incredibly diverse region.

Generally speaking, it's the people with the military hardware that get to decide who has human rights.

They are far from universal.

osarusan · 25-11-2019 10:22am

Alarming stuff coming out about China's treatment of Uighurs in Xinjiang.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-50511063

The authorities then ordered the investigation of 40,557 of them "one by one". The document says "if it is not possible to eliminate suspicion" they should be sent for "concentrated training".

"concentrated training" is pretty f**king ominous term.

suicide_circus · 25-11-2019 10:26am

if we are to give trump credit for anything it has to be his stance on China

RobbingBandit · 25-11-2019 10:32am

Nearly 1.45b population 1,450,000,000 less 1,000,000 still leaves 1,449,000,000

Quantum Erasure · 25-11-2019 10:40am

How China uses technology to push its campaign against Muslim minorities beyond its own borders

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/nov/24/china-cables-revealed-power-and-reach-of-chinas-surveillance-dragnet

The cables reveal that in a single week in June 2017, IJOP [Integrated Joint Operations Platform] flagged up 24,412 “suspicious” individuals in one part of southern Xinjiang alone. Of these, more than 15,000 were sent to re-education camps, and a further 706 were jailed.

That rate of detentions, if matched across the region and continued over time, would explain how hundreds of thousands of people have been swept into camps already.

markodaly · 25-11-2019 11:28am

Deleted User wrote: »

"Forced" (find that amusing since who would volunteer to go to a detention camp)

Detention camps are nothing new in China. They're also considered to be prisons here. Just as you could call prisons in the US or many other countries... guess Guantanamo Bay isn't offensive enough to complain about.

The HK protests are an exercise in stupidity since HK is Chinese territory and they have no choice but to accept being part of China. It's a bit like Texas telling the Federal government that they want to secede and embrace fascism. Agreements were broken by Beijing but then, China has a long history of breaking agreements that don't suit them. So too do a variety of western nations.

As for an evil empire... who are you comparing them to? I'd consider them a few steps up from Soviet Russia. China hasn't been engaged in any wars since Korea, except for repeated minor skirmishes with their neighbors over contested lands going back to British colonial days. They're a totalitarian state but then democracy isn't particularly representative of the people's will either.

As for a Cold war... consider looking at a map of China in Asia, and then place a marker for every US airforce base, missile base, or any base that contains US forces capable of striking the Chinese mainland. The US nearly caused WW3 over missiles in Cuba, but we can't be thinking that the US or others have been aggressive in their behavior towards China.

Don't get me wrong. China has a crap-ton of issues. I've been here for over a decade, and have spoken to many people who have either themselves been on the wrong side with the government or their families have. However, I don't see this evil empire junk.

I do see a serious amount of hypocrisy and double standards though, by western people. They'll ignore the behavior of the US but expect China to meet western standards of behavior. China is an Asian power, following Asian logic, and has no interest in being held accountable for a standard of behavior that western nations often fail to meet themselves. They're a superpower, in all but name, and superpowers do whatever they want.

A thread about the ill-treatment of the Uyghurs in China, you mention the US and 'the west' a total of 10 times. Well done. I am sure your paymasters in the CCP will be pleased.

25-11-2019 2:11pm

Deleted User wrote: »

As for an evil empire... who are you comparing them to? I'd consider them a few steps up from Soviet Russia.

A few steps up ? Communist China followed the same path. The famine during the so-called "Great Leap Forward" led to an estimated 30 - 55 million deaths. There were millions more in the cultural revolution. Both were ideological follies. How were the Tiananmen Square commemoration ceremonies this year, by the way?

Individuals for the CCP were, and are, totally dispensible as long as the "cause" is being furthered.

China is an Asian power, following Asian logic

Substitute "Chinese Communist Party power" for "Asian power" and you are on to something.

[Deleted User] · 25-11-2019 2:57pm

Yurt! wrote: »

Klaz, you could do with reading up on the debate on Lee Kwan Yew and 'Asian values.'

Thanks, I'll take a look. I'm always willing for my perception to be challenged and changed.

Namely, it's a convenient fig leaf for despots of the east to have their way and claim 'culture' when they are challenged (a bit like Pavee Point).

How Japan, Korea and Taiwan have relatively healthy multi-party democracies (with Malaysia and Indonesia being glass half-full stories) despite their 'Asian values' frontal-lobe constantly speaking over their shoulder is a mystery.

You've just named three countries which were heavily influenced by the US following WW2. Indonesia is turning authoritarian, with it's democracy drying up in the face of the rise of Islam. Or has that reverted again? Genuine question. Last few documentaries I saw regarding Indonesia showed an alarming turning towards more severe forms of Islamic teachings. Don't they also glorify those gangsters who committed murder for political reasons, or am I mixing that up with another country nearby? I know next to nothing about Malaysia.

I think you've drank the kool-aid.

There's this misconception that if I defend some elements of Chinese behavior, and points out the behavior of western nations as a comparison, then I must be extremely pro-China. That there's some kind of absolute when it comes to having an opinion.

I prefer a more balanced look. I don't like what China has done to many provinces, or it's history with regards to human rights. I seriously don't like the indoctrination of its people, and the encouragement of paranoia against all outsiders, especially the frequent reminders that foreigners might be spies trying to turn Chinese people. I don't like the Chinese behavior in HK, with the breaking of disagreements, nor do I like it's aggressive posture in SE Asia with the taking and creation of Islands to threaten it's neighbors.

At the same time, I don't particularly wish to blind myself to how the US has surrounded China with military bases with the ability to target deep within mainland China. I can appreciate the fear that many Chinese have about American fleets passing near their shores, when any similar action by US shores would be taken as an act of extreme aggression.

I don't see China as an evil nation. It's a superpower. Just as Soviet Russia was a superpower, and the US is a superpower. Superpower nations do whatever they want to do, irrespective of what other people say about them. Do Superpower nations do bad things? definitely. China has. Soviet Russia did. The British Empire did. And the US has also.

Human rights are universal, and there is pretty much no such thing as 'Asian values' in an incredibly diverse region.

Have you read Kissinger's book, "On Diplomacy"? Within it he talks about Asian spheres and the cultural aspects to diplomacy which are different to the more western attitudes, along with how misunderstandings easily occurred.

markodaly wrote: »

A thread about the ill-treatment of the Uyghurs in China, you mention the US and 'the west' a total of 10 times. Well done. I am sure your paymasters in the CCP will be pleased.

A thread that simply says "Over 1 Million in Detention Camps in China". If you wanted a conversation solely about the ill-treatment of the Uyghurs in China, then that should have been in the thread title. Or better yet, in the first post which I responded to:

"The Hong Kong protests, revelations about forced detention camps. Is this a cynical escalation of the Cold War with China by the West or the genuine exposure of an evil empire?"

Not one mention of the Uyghurs in China.... So... what the fcuk are you complaining about?

As for my supposed paymasters in China... some evidence please, or withdraw the remark. That's an accusation and frankly offensive. Your objection is completely flawed considering no mention of the Uyghurs in China was even mentioned before I posted. (or that I receive some kind of payment for my opinions about China)

James Brown · 25-11-2019 2:59pm

Deleted User wrote: »

"Forced" (find that amusing since who would volunteer to go to a detention camp)

Detention camps are nothing new in China. They're also considered to be prisons here. Just as you could call prisons in the US or many other countries... guess Guantanamo Bay isn't offensive enough to complain about.

The HK protests are an exercise in stupidity since HK is Chinese territory and they have no choice but to accept being part of China. It's a bit like Texas telling the Federal government that they want to secede and embrace fascism. Agreements were broken by Beijing but then, China has a long history of breaking agreements that don't suit them. So too do a variety of western nations.

As for an evil empire... who are you comparing them to? I'd consider them a few steps up from Soviet Russia. China hasn't been engaged in any wars since Korea, except for repeated minor skirmishes with their neighbors over contested lands going back to British colonial days. They're a totalitarian state but then democracy isn't particularly representative of the people's will either.

As for a Cold war... consider looking at a map of China in Asia, and then place a marker for every US airforce base, missile base, or any base that contains US forces capable of striking the Chinese mainland. The US nearly caused WW3 over missiles in Cuba, but we can't be thinking that the US or others have been aggressive in their behavior towards China.

Don't get me wrong. China has a crap-ton of issues. I've been here for over a decade, and have spoken to many people who have either themselves been on the wrong side with the government or their families have. However, I don't see this evil empire junk.

I do see a serious amount of hypocrisy and double standards though, by western people. They'll ignore the behavior of the US but expect China to meet western standards of behavior. China is an Asian power, following Asian logic, and has no interest in being held accountable for a standard of behavior that western nations often fail to meet themselves. They're a superpower, in all but name, and superpowers do whatever they want.

Blink twice

You know they read everything you type and probably have you watched?
Speaking of 'the west', like the Canadians imprisoned, be careful China and Ireland don't fall out as you'll be lifted for spying.

Nobody is ignoring the U.S. that sh*t show is on the news 24/7. In fact they're trying to Impeach the umpa lumpa.

It's common knowledge people disappear and get sent to camps. I think this report was more on it being a specific ethnic group.
Saw a doc a few weeks back this lad married to a Chinese woman, hadn't seen her in five years. She was put in a camp and he only got word leaked that she was there.

As they say, great bunch of lads....

The Hong Kong protests will go far enough and eventually one day soon all the ring leaders will be reeducated.

[Deleted User] · 25-11-2019 3:05pm

1641 wrote: »

Individuals for the CCP were, and are, totally dispensible as long as the "cause" is being furthered.

There's two China's since the peoples congress. The regime that Mao created and the one that followed up the limited opening up in 1978. Very different styles of governing and attitude to the treatment of the people. Is the current government much better than the old? Not really... but there is serious pressure for them to not commit the excesses of the older regime towards their own people. That's a definite improvement for Chinese people. The government is still as heavy handed as before though.

Substitute "Chinese Communist Party power" for "Asian power" and you are on to something.

Asian power. The continent of Asia. A power within that continent. Just as Japan is an Asian power. Can't see why such a term is an issue.

[Deleted User] · 25-11-2019 3:12pm

Matt Barrett wrote: »

You know they read everything you type and probably have you watched?

Yup. Doesn't bother me in the slightest. If I was going to disappear, that would have happened long ago.. they're more likely to simply kick me out.. if they cared. I genuinely doubt that they do, though.

Nobody is ignoring the U.S. that sh*t show is on the news 24/7. In fact they're trying to Impeach the umpa lumpa.

They're trying to impeach him for political reasons within the US. It's simply a sign of US political corruption. Hardly an indication that anybody is trying to make the US responsible for their behavior worldwide. Otherwise Obama would be up on charges for drone strikes on civilians. Or Bush junior for the lies leading to the invasion of Iraq.

It's common knowledge people disappear and get sent to camps. I think this report was more on it being a specific ethnic group.

Yup. Never denied such a thing. As you say, it's common knowledge.

The Hong Kong protests will go far enough and eventually one day soon all the ring leaders will be reeducated.

Again, yup. Reeducated, charged with a dodgy show trial, or disappear completely.. and nothing will have changed. China will still control HK and nothing will stop that from happening.

Raconteuse · 25-11-2019 3:22pm

Klaz, you're a great poster - very levelheaded and I was glad to see you back after you were gone for ages.

But... (and you knew there was gonna be a "but"

) some of what you're saying here just seems kinda like "I know it's bad but what about such and such". Nobody said Guantanamo Bay et al is ok.

James Brown · 25-11-2019 3:25pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Yup. Doesn't bother me in the slightest. If I was going to disappear, that would have happened long ago.. they're more likely to simply kick me out.. if they cared. I genuinely doubt that they do, though.

They imprisoned two Canadians for bargaining purposes. That's no biggy to you?

Deleted User wrote: »

They're trying to impeach him for political reasons within the US. It's simply a sign of US political corruption. Hardly an indication that anybody is trying to make the US responsible for their behavior worldwide. Otherwise Obama would be up on charges for drone strikes on civilians. Or Bush junior for the lies leading to the invasion of Iraq.

You surely aren't away that long that you think normal people adore the U.S.?
And yeah we all know the Chinese ministers, (do they have ministers?) names and can quote them and that

Deleted User wrote: »

Yup. Never denied such a thing. As you say, it's common knowledge.

Again, yup. Reeducated, charged with a dodgy show trial, or disappear completely.. and nothing will have changed. China will still control HK and nothing will stop that from happening.

Fair enough was under the impression you were in denial when turns out you couldn't care less. Enjoy your time there.
Very 'I'm alright jack'.

[Deleted User] · 25-11-2019 3:31pm

Raconteuse wrote: »

Klaz, you're a great poster - very levelheaded and I was glad to see you back after you were gone for ages.

But... (and you knew there was gonna be a "but" ) some of what you're saying here just seems kinda like "I know it's bad but what about such and such". Nobody said Guantanamo Bay et al is ok.

I'm not trying to absolve China from any responsibility. I dunno. I seem to be hitting entirely the wrong note on these kind of topics. It's weird.

Okie dokie. I'll be opting out of further discussion about China until I've had some serious introspection about the whole thing and my posting habits recently.

[To others, let's just leave it at that... rather than use this post as a chance to lay down insults or accusations. I'd rather not get drawn back in until I've thought this through. Appreciated. ]

[Deleted User] · 25-11-2019 3:34pm

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Fair enough was under the impression you were in denial when turns out you couldn't care less. Enjoy your time there.
Very 'I'm alright jack'.

Not that i couldn't care less... just that I accept that this is way things are here.

But yup. I guess I should be feeling outraged, but I'm not. Fair enough. Another reason to stop posting and think about it all.

Mariomaker · 25-11-2019 3:38pm

Half the people on here are in denial and a blaming the USA for everything.

James Brown · 25-11-2019 3:43pm

Mariomaker wrote: »

Half the people on here are in denial and a blaming the USA for everything.

While the U.S., (Democratic and Republican) have shown themselves to be greedy monsters, I believe much of the criticism is on China.

Odhinn · 25-11-2019 5:30pm

SafeSurfer wrote: »

The Hong Kong protests, revelations about forced detention camps. Is this a cynical escalation of the Cold War with China by the West or the genuine exposure of an evil empire?

Genuine exposure of an "evil empire". Seeing as its on the UNSC and has the bomb, I wouldn't expect change any time soon.

silverharp · 25-11-2019 8:04pm

for some reason Dilbert is banned in china

https://twitter.com/ScottAdamsSays/status/1198962059058089986

ILoveYourVibes · 25-11-2019 8:19pm

SafeSurfer wrote: »

the genuine exposure of an evil empire?

This.

The west has done nothing ....and will do nothing.

ILoveYourVibes · 25-11-2019 8:20pm

When china starts using its power abroad people will regret not taking action now.

banie01 · 25-11-2019 8:36pm

Just for giggles.
A comparison of the Chinese prison population including the 1 million Uighurs and the admittedly likely under counted numbers by the Chinese.
The reported rate is 118 per 100k plus the additional 1 million Uighurs gives an incarceration rate of @200 per 100000.

The American incarceration rate is @700 per 100000.
The UKs is 179 per 100000 and our own here in Ireland is 81 per 100000.

Now I am no fan of locking people up without due process, or for thought crime but there is a degree of hypocrisy in not acknowledging the dangers that imprisonment in even "free" society carries.

In the US in particular, the growth of private prisons, graft, inflated charges, procedural crimes leading to custodial sentences and the fairly brutal nature of many US prisons should surely raise the hackles of as many of us liberally minded folk as the wholesale warehousing, torture and "re-education" of a Chinese minority?

banie01 · 25-11-2019 8:40pm

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

When china starts using its power abroad people will regret not taking action now.

China is already using its power abroad.
Both economically particularly across the old silk road routes, and around the Pacific basin and in Africa.
The growth of Chinese "Soft" power is staggering, they also are the largest holder of US foreign debt.

The Chinese are laughing at Trump's trade war threat as the can and will tank the $ at their will.

They are also rapidly gaining something the Soviets never could.
Technical parity with the US, the Soviet mantra was quantity has a quality all of its own...

The Chinese is similar but with added tech!

silverharp · 25-11-2019 8:45pm

another side issue here is that there seems to be evidence that they harvest organs on demand from prisoners , falun gong being prime candidates

Over 1 Million in Detention Camps in China

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