Western Rail Corridor / Rail Trail Discussion

Grandeeod · 07-11-2019 08:51PM

westtip wrote: »

The truth is if we had a real rail lobby group representing the West of Ireland the Athlone - Mullingar - Connolly route had the potential for an alternative Athlone commuter route to Dublin and an alternative route for Galway Dublin. The greenway does protect this route, but as a railway route is has massively more potential than Claremorris to Athenry!

When there was a REAL Railway lobby group, the Athlone-Mullingar route was often mentioned and featured in print media and radio in the region as an alternative route to Galway and the west. That same lobby group burst the bubble of the WRC that you are still battling. That same lobby group didn't even have a presence across the media today on Newstalk as they dedicated the week to commuting issues - "Commuter Hell". That same renamed lobby group deleted the real driving force from their history and became a trainspotting talk shop.

Lord Glentoran · 07-11-2019 10:01PM

westtip wrote: »

The truth is if we had a real rail lobby group representing the West of Ireland the Athlone - Mullingar - Connolly route had the potential for an alternative Athlone commuter route to Dublin and an alternative route for Galway Dublin. The greenway does protect this route, but as a railway route is has massively more potential than Claremorris to Athenry!

Oh come on. The cycle/greenway lobby would fight it tooth and nail.

westtip · 11-11-2019 07:43PM

Lord Glentoran wrote: »

Oh come on. The cycle/greenway lobby would fight it tooth and nail.

They would struggle as the respective county councils along the route have legally binding agreement that if the route is ever required for rail, rail will take precendence, of course the greenway protects the route from squatters and if the route is needed for rail in the future a parallel greenway would be simply run parallel. I sit and wait now for the post to come about Comber valley, as sure as night follows day this will happen.

eastwest · 11-11-2019 08:22PM

westtip wrote: »

They would struggle as the respective county councils along the route have legally binding agreement that if the route is ever required for rail, rail will take precendence, of course the greenway protects the route from squatters and if the route is needed for rail in the future a parallel greenway would be simply run parallel. I sit and wait now for the post to come about Comber valley, as sure as night follows day this will happen.

But but but comber busway...
(Is that ok?)

Lord Glentoran · 12-11-2019 04:00PM

eastwest wrote: »

But but but comber busway...
(Is that ok?)

Thanks for raising it. Have a lemon curd sandwich.

18-11-2019 06:40PM

Was chatting to a colleague about the farce that is the campaign to reopen the line northwards from Athenry and he asked about freight so did a little digging, thought it might add to the conversation here too

According to CSO data from IE here rail freight has dropped to point to being nothing worth talking about

6034073

eastwest · 18-11-2019 06:43PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Was chatting to a colleague about the farce that is the campaign to reopen the line northwards from Athenry and he asked about freight so did a little digging, thought it might add to the conversation here too

According to CSO data from IE here rail freight has dropped to point to being nothing worth talking about

But but but comber.....

Lord Glentoran · 18-11-2019 07:29PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Was chatting to a colleague about the farce that is the campaign to reopen the line northwards from Athenry and he asked about freight so did a little digging, thought it might add to the conversation here too

According to CSO data from IE here rail freight has dropped to point to being nothing worth talking about

Ok so we won’t talk about it then.

eastwest · 18-11-2019 11:08PM

Lord Glentoran wrote: »

Ok so we won’t talk about it then.

Except for maybe now and again, especially the hub in claremorris.
Where they can ship loads of hub caps.

Losty Dublin · 19-11-2019 12:06AM

Deleted User wrote: »

Was chatting to a colleague about the farce that is the campaign to reopen the line northwards from Athenry and he asked about freight so did a little digging, thought it might add to the conversation here too

According to CSO data from IE here rail freight has dropped to point to being nothing worth talking about

True but there are some points to raise here that are very relevant to this.

Almost all of the freight traffic today goes to and from Mayo, whereas freight traffic of 20 years ago served other parts of Ireland. If anything, the region is busier than it ever way
In 1999 Cabinet decided that road freight was largely the way to go. Hence our shiny new motorways, tunnels and slip roads and heaps of sole trader truck drivers.
Any freight traffic on the railway can not be subvented by CIE and must be run on a no loss basis. This effectively has privatised rail freight insofar that a company hires the service of rail for it's private loadings. What they also need to offer are regular loadings offering regular trains; ad hoc trains and one off specials can't and don't work anymore.
A lot of Irish freight customers have gone to the wall or are no longer in production or have moved to new distribution/production lines. Sugar Beet, IFI, Irish Cement, Molasses, Guinness, Kingspan, Asahi, Bell Ferries.
Lots of what we produce in ireland just isn't suitable for rail haulage for many reasons. Meat, Dairy, Whiskey, computer chips, Cloud and other IT services, Hedge Funds;

trellheim · 19-11-2019 11:22AM

And that the lack of road pricing means road is always cheaper

eastwest · 19-11-2019 11:51AM

trellheim wrote: »

And that the lack of road pricing means road is always cheaper

Yes, by right they should build the railway out to every house in Ireland, and put road tax on trains and charge Irish rail excise on the diesel. Then you'd have balance.

westtip · 19-11-2019 11:54AM

And this is the most important freight in a knowledge economy

Sligo eye · 19-11-2019 11:55AM

eastwest wrote: »

Yes, by right they should build the railway out to every house in Ireland, and put road tax on trains and charge Irish rail excise on the diesel. Then you'd have balance.

Well done eastwest, you have put out yet another childish and ridiculous statement.

I note you are always silent about the sprawl of building that passes for planning policy in this country. I would love to see your obvious dedication and energy put to good use fighting the vested interests that are destroying the environment here rather than speaking up for them.

eastwest · 19-11-2019 12:15PM

Sligo eye wrote: »

Well done eastwest, you have put out yet another childish and ridiculous statement.

I note you are always silent about the sprawl of building that passes for planning policy in this country. I would love to see your obvious dedication and energy put to good use fighting the vested interests that are destroying the environment here rather than speaking up for them.

Just stating facts.
There is a train (apologies) of thought that suggests that road-based distribution of freight has am unfair advantage because the capital costs are not included in comparisons.
This argument not only ignores the fact that we need roads to service our houses anyway, but also ignores the heavy subsidy to railway running costs. When rail freight was required to break even, while still conveniently ignoring the establishment and maintenance cost of the permanent way, it disappeared off the map.

ShaneC1600 · 19-11-2019 12:26PM

westtip wrote: »

And this is the most important freight in a knowledge economy

Someone should tell the ports not to bother investing or expanding as the 53 million tonnes transported in 2017 will in a few years be transmitted. I think you are watching too many sci-fi films.

westtip · 19-11-2019 12:52PM

ShaneC1600 wrote: »

Someone should tell the ports not to bother investing or expanding as the 53 million tonnes transported in 2017 will in a few years be transmitted. I think you are watching too many sci-fi films.

Granted but ask Apple how much they needed the freight line from Athenry to Claremorris. Unfortunately it was other forces that stopped that investment. Ask any SaaS company (SaaS = Software as a Service) what they want if they need to invest in the West of Ireland and it won't be freight trains trundling through Tuam. Of course we need investment in our ports, we also need investment in our tourism infrastructure; like greenways and investment in industrial strength internet connectivity to data centres and for SaaS companies. Re our railways yes investment is needed - priorities being in the main population centres and electrification of mainline routes, Athenry to Tuam and Tuam to Claremorris is so low on the agenda even if a slight straw in the wind can come out of the latest Review it is never going to happen in our lifetimes.

ShaneC1600 · 19-11-2019 01:07PM

westtip wrote: »

Granted but ask Apple how much they needed the freight line from Athenry to Claremorris. Unfortunately it was other forces that stopped that investment. Ask any SaaS company (SaaS = Software as a Service) what they want if they need to invest in the West of Ireland and it won't be freight trains trundling through Tuam. Of course we need investment in our ports, we also need investment in our tourism infrastructure; like greenways and investment in industrial strength internet connectivity to data centres and for SaaS companies. Re our railways yes investment is needed - priorities being in the main population centres and electrification of mainline routes, Athenry to Tuam and Tuam to Claremorris is so low on the agenda even if a slight straw in the wind can come out of the latest Review it is never going to happen in our lifetimes.

Your right on that one, Apple will not be looking for freight trains, I agree no software company will require trains either. I also agree that investment should be prioritised for say railways with greater investment in the main population centres makes more sense. But, on the same line of thought, Ireland is tiny compared to France or Germany so Europe should not give funding for infrastructure investment in Ireland. Or another one, a greenway from Galway City to Connemara would bring many more tourists than a trail along the WRC so all Galway greenway money should go there. If investment followed that logic nothing would ever happen on the WRC or west of the Liffey for that matter.

eastwest · 19-11-2019 02:07PM

ShaneC1600 wrote: »

Your right on that one, Apple will not be looking for freight trains, I agree no software company will require trains either. I also agree that investment should be prioritised for say railways with greater investment in the main population centres makes more sense. But, on the same line of thought, Ireland is tiny compared to France or Germany so Europe should not give funding for infrastructure investment in Ireland. Or another one, a greenway from Galway City to Connemara would bring many more tourists than a trail along the WRC so all Galway greenway money should go there. If investment followed that logic nothing would ever happen on the WRC or west of the Liffey for that matter.

Except that connemara and the wild Atlantic way is at saturation point, and the tourism offering across the west needs to be broadened.

ShaneC1600 · 19-11-2019 02:57PM

eastwest wrote: »

Except that connemara and the wild Atlantic way is at saturation point, and the tourism offering across the west needs to be broadened.

Connemara is an area of natural beauty and tourists come because of that, well I go there because of that whether for walks with family or adventure racing it is class and a greenway out there would be even better. I am afraid the rail line from Tuam to Claremorris offers no such amenity. I have had the pleasure of walking that line on numerous occasions, I actually have to do it again in December and it I know I would prefer if it was out west, it is quite boring, full of cuttings and flat. Now that is just my opinion on that line. I am sure for locals it would offer a safe place to walk or cycle but for tourists travelling to Ireland or from around Ireland other greenways have much more to offer. They might pass through but it will not be the savior some in the greenway movement would have you believe.

eastwest · 19-11-2019 03:09PM

ShaneC1600 wrote: »

Connemara is an area of natural beauty and tourists come because of that, well I go there because of that whether for walks with family or adventure racing it is class and a greenway out there would be even better. I am afraid the rail line from Tuam to Claremorris offers no such amenity. I have had the pleasure of walking that line on numerous occasions, I actually have to do it again in December and it I know I would prefer if it was out west, it is quite boring, full of cuttings and flat. Now that is just my opinion on that line. I am sure for locals it would offer a safe place to walk or cycle but for tourists travelling to Ireland or from around Ireland other greenways have much more to offer. They might pass through but it will not be the savior some in the greenway movement would have you believe.

For most people, the priority is a safe, level.cycling and walking route. For others, the attraction is the railway heritage. Others like the solitude and the beauty of places like south sligo and east mayo. Many local users want a commuting route to work or school. And millions of European tourists love the idea of long routes where they can get away from it all and cover a lot of mileage.
Horses for courses.

ShaneC1600 · 19-11-2019 05:36PM

eastwest wrote: »

For most people, the priority is a safe, level.cycling and walking route. For others, the attraction is the railway heritage. Others like the solitude and the beauty of places like south sligo and east mayo. Many local users want a commuting route to work or school. And millions of European tourists love the idea of long routes where they can get away from it all and cover a lot of mileage.
Horses for courses.

I agree, there is something in it for some people regardless of amenities, or location whether it is a railway or a greenway. What I am saying is, arguments against the railway saying there is better locations to spend infrastructure money than the WRC. The same argument is there against the greenway on the WRC as there are also better locations albeit not on public lands.

eastwest · 19-11-2019 07:49PM

ShaneC1600 wrote: »

I agree, there is something in it for some people regardless of amenities, or location whether it is a railway or a greenway. What I am saying is, arguments against the railway saying there is better locations to spend infrastructure money than the WRC. The same argument is there against the greenway on the WRC as there are also better locations albeit not on public lands.

Leaks from Dttas suggest the wrc has allegedly been blown out of the water in no uncertain terms by the long promised rail review, although a few politicians who have based their reputations on delivering a railway are now frantically lobbying to have the findings watered down by the second stage of the process. Indeed it appears they will succeed in having some vague aspirational stuff put in the final report, enough to prevent the asset being used by anybody for another decade.

ShaneC1600 · 19-11-2019 08:09PM

eastwest wrote: »

Leaks from Dttas suggest the wrc has allegedly been blown out of the water in no uncertain terms by the long promised rail review, although a few politicians who have based their reputations on delivering a railway are now frantically lobbying to have the findings watered down by the second stage of the process. Indeed it appears they will succeed in having some vague aspirational stuff put in the final report, enough to prevent the asset being used by anybody for another decade.

No offence but without valid sources I for one will take "leaks" and "Rumor has it" as nothing more than spoof. I've seen it on certain pages of these "leaks". It could be that the people wanting a greenway will try to in-validate the conclusions of the review if they happen to be pro-railway and if the conclusions are against the opening of the railway then no harm done!
I wonder will the greenway movement accept the conclusions of the report if it deems the railway viable?

19-11-2019 08:19PM

ShaneC1600 wrote: »

I wonder will the greenway movement accept the conclusions of the report if it deems the railway viable?

Lol, viable

ShaneC1600 · 19-11-2019 08:39PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Lol, viable

Good one, you have me there

20-11-2019 12:26AM

ShaneC1600 wrote: »

Good one, you have me there

What response were you expecting when you suggest an extension being viable?

The current open section requires the following just to generate the equivalent of a bus full a day
- free parking
- reduced fares
- insane subvention

You reckon there's a chance the report will say going northwards to Tuam to provide a slower, more expensive service is something that is viable?

I stand by my original response

ShaneC1600 · 20-11-2019 11:07AM

Deleted User wrote: »

What response were you expecting when you suggest an extension being viable?

The current open section requires the following just to generate the equivalent of a bus full a day
- free parking
- reduced fares
- insane subvention

You reckon there's a chance the report will say going northwards to Tuam to provide a slower, more expensive service is something that is viable?

I stand by my original response

Full bus load a day is inaccurate infromation. At least use correct information to start with.
Free parking was a good initiative and should be extended to Athenry car park. As it is a commuter train prices are now fairer when compared to similar trips elsewhere. Subvention is high but subvention is high on most poorly serviced routes. Service requires better sets and improved time tables.

I believe the route should be extended to Tuam as phase 2 yes but as one measure in a suite of improvements required to Galways infrastructure, not as a stand alone solution.

20-11-2019 12:47PM

ShaneC1600 wrote: »

Full bus load a day is inaccurate infromation. At least use correct information to start with.

My apologies, you are absolutely right, it doesn't generate even the equivalent of a full bus load, thanks for allowing me to clarify that inaccuracy

I believe the route should be extended to Tuam as phase 2 yes but as one measure in a suite of improvements required to Galways infrastructure, not as a stand alone solution.

What is your measure for success for a service that will require around 100 million to set up, run infrequently, be slower and more expensive than other options?

end of the road · 20-11-2019 02:04PM

Deleted User wrote: »

My apologies, you are absolutely right, it doesn't generate even the equivalent of a full bus load, thanks for allowing me to clarify that inaccuracy

it generates a number of full trains according to reliable local sources on the ground.
the line is being used and is a reasonable success.

Deleted User wrote: »

What is your measure for success for a service that will require around 100 million to set up, run infrequently, be slower and more expensive than other options?

there is nothing to say it will be slower and more expensive then other options given we don't know the costs of reopening currently, nor do we know to what standard the rebuild will be or the frequency of services that would be planned.

Western Rail Corridor / Rail Trail Discussion

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