Northern Ireland Westminster General Election

FrancieBrady · 15-11-2019 01:00AM

markodaly wrote: »

Oh here we go, another epic Francie 'debate' is about to start.

No, Francie, that is not what I am saying, nor did I imply it. But please, elaborate, I know you dont need a 2nd invitation to tell us all your thoughts on the matter.

You clearly said SF are at the 'extreme sectarian side' of NI society.

voting either SF or DUP is not healthy. Both are on the extreme sides of the sectarian divide

That by extension means that you think the SDLP entered a pact with a party from the 'extreme sectarian side'.

No need for a 'lengthy' anything. Just asking you to confirm this is what you think has happened.

liamtech · 15-11-2019 01:17AM

markodaly wrote: »

I didnt say that.
I hope Alliance take a seat or two as well, as I do the UUP and the SDLP. I want more moderates elected.

The North continuing down the lines of Balkanising the North by voting either SF or DUP is not healthy. Both are on the extreme sides of the sectarian divide. You do not support either the DUP or SF so you should be happy with my comment.

Balkanising the North by voting either SF or DUP

Balkanising

divide (a region or body) into smaller mutually hostile states or groups.
"ambitious neighbours would snatch pieces of territory, Balkanizing the country"

So who's divisive - in terms of Political Parties in NI

Alliance - willing to work with anyone, non sectarianism, neutral on the Union

SDLP - Social Democrats who have reached out to moderate Unionism, and supported Human rights, as well as equal rights - intricately involved in ending the Troubles, willing to work with others including their main nationalist rivals, SF

UUP - Conservative but progressive when it comes to societal issues - tend to be hampered by the Incumbent form of Unionism

Sinn Fein - Support equal status for the Irish Language, equal rights for LGBTQ community, womens rights in terms of access to abortion,

DUP - Anti-Gay, ProLife/Anti-Rights, Corrupt, frequently linked to Loyalist Para-militarists, Arrogantly consider themselves to be the ONLY CHOICE for Unionism, and backing of a PASTOR who said 'Islam is Heathen and the Spawn of Satan'.

TUV - Jim Allister makes the DUP look like the salvation army - against the GFA, against cross community co-operation, Christian Ultra Right Wing Creationist, who attends debates and disrupts them by acting like a Union Jack colored Wrecking ball -the ultimate evolution of Sectarianism

SO - lets talk, who is extreme - shall we discuss?

markodaly · 15-11-2019 01:24AM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

No need for a 'lengthy' anything. Just asking you to confirm this is what you think has happened.

No, Francie, that is not what I am saying, nor did I imply it

.

markodaly · 15-11-2019 01:26AM

liamtech wrote: »

SO - lets talk, who is extreme - shall we discuss?

SF are the extreme side of Irish Nationalism in the North.
DUP are the extreme side of Unionism in the North.

FrancieBrady · 15-11-2019 01:31AM

markodaly wrote: »

SF are the extreme side of Irish Nationalism in the North.
DUP are the extreme side of Unionism in the North.

Two party's have entered pacts with the above...the SDLP with SF and the UUP with the DUP.

Are they having a wee holiday from being moderates?

liamtech · 15-11-2019 01:37AM

markodaly wrote: »

SF are the extreme side of Irish Nationalism in the North.
DUP are the extreme side of Unionism in the North.

They are on opposite sides of the main question of Northern Irelands future - the union. If you want to suggest the difference is extreme so be it

Sinn Fein are extremely opposed to the Policies of the DUP - but they are not an extremist party - their views could not be considered extreme - being Pro United Ireland is not an extreme aspiration

The DUP's policies are Extreme. It is possible to be Pro Union, but not extreme in ones views - the DUP have chosen not to take this path, and continue to argue Extreme policies with regard to many issues. many people are Extremely opposed to these policies, because the DUP is arguably an Extremely Right Wing Party -arguably Extremist in their politics of Siege Mentality,

These distinctions need to be made - imho

FrancieBrady · 15-11-2019 09:59AM

liamtech wrote: »

They are on opposite sides of the main question of Northern Irelands future - the union. If you want to suggest the difference is extreme so be it

Sinn Fein are extremely opposed to the Policies of the DUP - but they are not an extremist party - their views could not be considered extreme - being Pro United Ireland is not an extreme aspiration

The DUP's policies are Extreme. It is possible to be Pro Union, but not extreme in ones views - the DUP have chosen not to take this path, and continue to argue Extreme policies with regard to many issues. many people are Extremely opposed to these policies, because the DUP is arguably an Extremely Right Wing Party -arguably Extremist in their politics of Siege Mentality,

These distinctions need to be made - imho

I know they'll be queuing with the 'shinnerbot' stuff, but you are correct, it is such a lazy agenda driven joint classification which has no basis in fact.

And those doing it are easily caught out on it as we see above.

blanch152 · 15-11-2019 10:49AM

liamtech wrote: »

Balkanising the North by voting either SF or DUP

So who's divisive - in terms of Political Parties in NI

Alliance - willing to work with anyone, non sectarianism, neutral on the Union

SDLP - Social Democrats who have reached out to moderate Unionism, and supported Human rights, as well as equal rights - intricately involved in ending the Troubles, willing to work with others including their main nationalist rivals, SF

UUP - Conservative but progressive when it comes to societal issues - tend to be hampered by the Incumbent form of Unionism

Sinn Fein - Support equal status for the Irish Language, equal rights for LGBTQ community, womens rights in terms of access to abortion,

DUP - Anti-Gay, ProLife/Anti-Rights, Corrupt, frequently linked to Loyalist Para-militarists, Arrogantly consider themselves to be the ONLY CHOICE for Unionism, and backing of a PASTOR who said 'Islam is Heathen and the Spawn of Satan'.

TUV - Jim Allister makes the DUP look like the salvation army - against the GFA, against cross community co-operation, Christian Ultra Right Wing Creationist, who attends debates and disrupts them by acting like a Union Jack colored Wrecking ball -the ultimate evolution of Sectarianism

SO - lets talk, who is extreme - shall we discuss?

I hope your post is mostly tongue in cheek. The question you ask is "who is divisive"?

By any standard Sinn Fein are divisive, they are also extreme.

Firstly, their abstentionist policy, which is a de facto rejection of the legitimacy of the state they operate in, is both divisive and extremist by any standard of a modern democracy. Secondly, the welcoming among their ranks of former terrorists and councillors like the bread man. Finally, their celebration and commemoration of terrorists who killed their neighbours in living memory.

If you cannot see how this is divisive and provocative to many people living in Northern Ireland, then there is a bigger problem.

P.S. I agree with the rest of your analysis.

blanch152 · 15-11-2019 10:52AM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Are you saying the SDLP have made a pact with an extreme sectarian party???

Do you have a copy of this pact for us to read?

FrancieBrady · 15-11-2019 10:57AM

blanch152 wrote: »

Do you have a copy of this pact for us to read?

:D:D

Look lads, you have been caught out here.
If you say that SF are in the 'extreme sectarian sphere' any party entering a pact, either formally or informally are to be tainted with the same brush.

markodaly · 15-11-2019 11:18AM

Francie, I know your past-time is hunting down posters and trying to tie people who criticise SF with 'Gotacha' moments.
Kinda odd you do it for a party you are neither a member of nor support, but there you go.

I stand by my comments by the way.

The DUP are the extremist Unionist party
SF are the extremist Nationalist party.

The UUP and the SDLP would be seen as the more moderate counterparties.
If you find this so controversial a statement then I am not sure I can help you further.

blanch152 · 15-11-2019 11:23AM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

:D:D

Look lads, you have been caught out here.
If you say that SF are in the 'extreme sectarian sphere' any party entering a pact, either formally or informally are to be tainted with the same brush.

So there is no pact? Why did you claim there was a pact when there isn't one? A pact is a formal agreement which means there is a record of it.

As I understand it, the SDLP have stood aside in a small number of constituencies where they have no chance of taking a seat, as have most parties in the North. I wouldn't label that a pact by any stretch of the imagination.

By your standard, Sinn Fein have entered a pact with unionist parties and consequently have ditched their policy for a united Ireland.

FrancieBrady · 15-11-2019 11:25AM

markodaly wrote: »

Francie, I know your past-time is hunting down posters and trying to tie people who criticise SF with 'Gotacha' moments.
Kinda odd you do it for a party you are neither a member of nor support, but there you go.

I stand by my comments by the way.

The DUP are the extremist Unionist party
SF are the extremist Nationalist party.

The UUP and the SDLP would be seen as the more moderate counterparties.
If you find this so controversial a statement then I am not sure I can help you further.

And you haven't as yet outlined 'how' they are 'extreme' in policy. Is this just a feeling in your water?

The DUP are an 'extreme' party in policy areas as Liamtech says. Their 'unionism' would be the same as that of the UUP.

SF's 'nationalism' is not extreme. Anything they are aiming for is to achieved by consensus.

So go ahead, Mark, back up what you say, stop having a go at me, it is just deflection.
And while you are at it, tell us what it makes the SDLP who have gone into a pact with this 'extreme sectarian' party.

markodaly · 15-11-2019 11:29AM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

And you haven't as yet outlined 'how' they are 'extreme' in policy. Is this just a feeling in your water?

The DUP are an 'extreme' party in policy areas as Liamtech says. Their 'unionism' would be the same as that of the UUP.

SF's 'nationalism' is not extreme. Anything they are aiming for is to achieved by consensus.

So go ahead, Mark, back up what you say, stop having a go at me, it is just deflection.
And while you are at it, tell us what it makes the SDLP who have gone into a pact with this 'extreme sectarian' party.

Ah here we go, more 'debate' from you.... and totally off-topic with this thread. Tell you what, open another thread about it and ill discuss it there till the cows come home. Or even PM me.

So, let's get back to the election, shall we, as I am trying to respect the Mods here.

FrancieBrady · 15-11-2019 11:32AM

blanch152 wrote: »

So there is no pact? Why did you claim there was a pact when there isn't one? A pact is a formal agreement which means there is a record of it.

As I understand it, the SDLP have stood aside in a small number of constituencies where they have no chance of taking a seat, as have most parties in the North. I wouldn't label that a pact by any stretch of the imagination.

By your standard, Sinn Fein have entered a pact with unionist parties and consequently have ditched their policy for a united Ireland.

SO then, let's indulge your verbal gymnastics. The SDLP have run away from 'extreme sectarian parties' and abandoned their voters.

That better?

FrancieBrady · 15-11-2019 11:33AM

markodaly wrote: »

Ah here we go, more 'debate' from you.... and totally off-topic with this thread. Tell you what, open another thread about it and ill discuss it there till the cows come home. Or even PM me.

So, let's get back to the election, shall we, as I am trying to respect the Mods here.

No, I won't let you operate in secret Mark.

you made a claim, and failed to back-up that claim.

Happy to leave it there.

markodaly · 15-11-2019 11:36AM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

No, I won't let you operate in secret Mark.

Operate? Christ, I am not a MI5 agent France!
Open another thread about it. Happy to discuss it there.

FrancieBrady · 15-11-2019 11:37AM

markodaly wrote: »

Operate? Christ, I am not a MI5 agent France!
Open another thread about it. Happy to discuss it there.

No, you made the claim on THIS thread and failed majestically to back it up when asked and is expected in debate.

markodaly · 15-11-2019 11:45AM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

No, you made the claim on THIS thread and failed majestically to back it up when asked and is expected in debate.

I will repeat this for the last time, I am willing to back up my claim in another thread, of your choosing.
However, if we go down this rabbit hole a Mod is either going to pull us in on it, or delete the reams of text that has nothing to do with the NI Westminister GE.

I am respecting the mods wishes here, you seem to want to drag it off topic into another SF thread. Move on or open a new thread.

Stop moaning ffs · 15-11-2019 11:52AM

I’m no fan of either but if we’re using the words extremists, on balance, DUP are by far and away in a whole different league than SF.
Are they *for* anything apart from their british cosplay fantasies? Cos they seem to be against absolutely everything else. I can’t find an equivalent comparison in SF

FrancieBrady · 15-11-2019 11:54AM

markodaly wrote: »

I will repeat this for the last time, I am willing to back up my claim in another thread, of your choosing.
However, if we go down this rabbit hole a Mod is either going to pull us in on it, or delete the reams of text that has nothing to do with the NI Westminister GE.

I am respecting the mods wishes here, you seem to want to drag it off topic into another SF thread. Move on or open a new thread.

You introduced the topic, by defining those who vote for SF as 'extreme sectarians'.

voting either SF or DUP is not healthy. Both are on the extreme sides of the sectarian divide

Another poster and I challenged you on that and you haven't backed it up by explaining where this 'extreme sectarianism' is in the policies of SF.

Very simple.

We don't need another thread for you to simply back that up by showing us the 'extreme sectarian' policies akin to those religiously influenced ones that the DUP support.

Nationalism and Unionism are not 'sectarian' btw. They are legitimate political stances to have.

blanch152 · 15-11-2019 11:57AM

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

I’m no fan of either but if we’re using the words extremists, on balance, DUP are by far and away in a whole different league than SF.
Are they *for* anything apart from their british cosplay fantasies? Cos they seem to be against absolutely everything else. I can’t find an equivalent comparison in SF

Sinn Fein don't participate in the parliament of the state that they operate in, they don't recognise it, that is by definition extremist. Refusing to participate in legitimate democratic institutions is extreme.

People come on here and defend ad nauseum the abstentionist policy of a party that they don't support, yet try and claim at the same time that an abstenionist policy isn't extreme!!! You couldn't make it up.

edit: We could debate which is more extreme if you want, but there is no doubt that both Sinn Fein and the DUP come from unhealthy nasty extreme positions.

markodaly · 15-11-2019 11:59AM

blanch152 wrote: »

Sinn Fein don't participate in the parliament of the state that they operate in, they don't recognise it, that is by definition extremist. Refusing to participate in legitimate democratic institutions is extreme.

People come on here and defend ad nauseum the abstentionist policy of a party that they don't support, yet try and claim at the same time that an abstenionist policy isn't extreme!!! You couldn't make it up.

As a matter of interest, is there another political party that abstains from taking its seats in its main national parliament?

Stop moaning ffs · 15-11-2019 12:01PM

blanch152 wrote: »

Sinn Fein don't participate in the parliament of the state that they operate in, they don't recognise it, that is by definition extremist. Refusing to participate in legitimate democratic institutions is extreme.

People come on here and defend ad nauseum the abstentionist policy of a party that they don't support, yet try and claim at the same time that an abstenionist policy isn't extreme!!! You couldn't make it up.

edit: We could debate which is more extreme if you want, but there is no doubt that both Sinn Fein and the DUP come from unhealthy nasty extreme positions.

Abstentionism isn’t extremism. To suggest it is is to warp the word out of all recognizable shape.
Denying rights to LGBT & Women, is the very definition of extremism.

Stop moaning ffs · 15-11-2019 12:04PM

**just to add I could never ever understand this. You couldn’t get a cigarette paper between the DUPs position on these issues and hardline Catholics position. They’re exactly the same
So you’d wonder do they ever realize that?

blanch152 · 15-11-2019 12:05PM

markodaly wrote: »

As a matter of interest, is there another political party that abstains from taking its seats in its main national parliament?

I think there was another example in the Austrian-Hungary Empire in the 1800s, on which the Sinn Fein policy is based.

In modern day, rather than abstentionism, most similar extremist movements and parties tend to boycott the elections, or boycott the parliament after taking their seats so that they can collect salary. The latter is most similar to Sinn Fein as there is a special arrangement so that they can collect the money but not take the seat, a particularly Irish type of hypocrisy which makes the furore over the Dail recently laughable.

blanch152 · 15-11-2019 12:06PM

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

**just to add I could never ever understand this. You couldn’t get a cigarette paper between the DUPs position on these issues and hardline Catholics position. They’re exactly the same
So you’d wonder do they ever realize that?

It's the horseshoe theory of politics.

If you look at this election, Aontu and the DUP are closer to each other in terms of policies than either is to the Alliance or the SDLP in the centre.

The only difference between Aontu and the DUP is the union question.

blanch152 · 15-11-2019 12:08PM

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

Abstentionism isn’t extremism. To suggest it is is to warp the word out of all recognizable shape.
Denying rights to LGBT & Women, is the very definition of extremism.

Abstentionism equates to a refusal to take part in the legitimate democratic institutions of the state, equivalent to a defendant refusing to recognise a court, it is by definition a form of extremism in politics.

FrancieBrady · 15-11-2019 12:16PM

blanch152 wrote: »

Abstentionism equates to a refusal to take part in the legitimate democratic institutions of the state, equivalent to a defendant refusing to recognise a court, it is by definition a form of extremism in politics.

We are indulging you here blanch, if SF and the DUP are 'extreme sectarians' (how abstentionism is 'sectarian' we will leave aside for a moment)

have the SDLP abandoned their voters to 'extreme sectarians' in a number of constituencies?

blanch152 · 15-11-2019 12:20PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

We are indulging you here blanch, if SF and the DUP are 'extreme sectarians' (how abstentionism is 'sectarian' we will leave aside for a moment)

have the SDLP abandoned their voters to 'extreme sectarians' in a number of constituencies?

Why do you keep asking questions that have been well and truly answered?

blanch152 wrote: »

As I understand it, the SDLP have stood aside in a small number of constituencies where they have no chance of taking a seat, as have most parties in the North.

Let me repeat: As I understand it, the SDLP have stood aside in a small number of constituencies where they have no chance of taking a seat, as have most parties in the North.

That is not a pact, that is not abandoning voters, unless every party bar the Alliance Party have done so. It is a rather silly question that you are asking, not just one that has been answered several times.

Northern Ireland Westminster General Election

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