Like for Like Substitution

CorkCBR6 · 11-11-2019 6:39pm #1

Is this based on Calibre?

Could I trade in my 22lr rifle for a 22lr pistol this way?

hedzball · 11-11-2019 7:09pm

CorkCBR6 wrote: »

Is this based on Calibre?

Could I trade in my 22lr rifle for a 22lr pistol this way?

No

Way more stipulations on a pistol.

'hdz

Gorgeousgeorge · 11-11-2019 9:14pm

Firearm type is different so doubt it

Cass · 11-11-2019 9:27pm

Funny, i was thinking of starting a thread based on this very topic, but with a different angle. However to avoid confusion i'll start a fresh thread..

Firstly to the OP there is no "like for like" in the law. Its a term used when the differences between currently licensed firearms and one(s) you wish to change to is so little as to NOT warrant a brand new application. The law says once the purpose, good reason, and difference in the firearms is not to the extent as to vastly change the original granting a substitution may be granted.

You may hear and see people that have gotten various types of substitutions on a like for like basis, but they are entirely at the Super's (hence the FOs) discretion. A few examples of ones i've seen, heard of and done:

A 22lr to another 22lr - No problem as both were unrestricted, rimfire firearms of the same caliber. Even from bolt action to semi auto.
A 223 to a 243 - They were classed as a like for like because both were bolt action, unrestricted, centrefire rifles.
A 223 to a 12 gage shotgun - This one even caught my eye as one was a rifle and the other a shotgun, but it was deemed like for like because both were unrestricted, and both were to be used for the hunting of game/vermin in the open season under general license.
A 243 to 308 - Both were used for deer and both were unrestricted and bolt action rifles.

You might actually be able to do it, but the FO, as the lads said above, will no doubt draw attention to the fact that one is a pistol and the other a rifle. You may argue that they are both rimfire, both unrestricted, and both the same caliber. Then the only obstacle you will face is the reason for granting. Was the rifle granted for target shooting? If not, and the pistol must be for this only, then the FO could argue that the rifle and pistol have different good reasons for being wanted and hence the license cannot be substituted.

Speak to your FO, and get a direct answer is the best bet rather than lose time waiting on a sub that may be refused.

Cass · 11-11-2019 9:34pm

By the way in the last 5 days i have had two lads contact me regarding this very topic.

One was refused a sub from a 223 to a 6.5 because the 223 was granted for vermin control and target shooting while the 6.5 is deer legal and the OP already has a deer rifle so the original good reason for granting the 223 no longer applies to the 6.5. He was made to submit a new application.

A second chap was refused a substitution from an semi auto shotgun to an O/U. Both were the same caliber and both unrestricted, but because the OP applied for the semi auto for game shooting and never ticked "target shooting" or "Other (clays, vermin, etc)" on the FCA1 when applying and wanted the O/U strictly for clays he was refused because the original reason for the firearm had now changed ad his current license was only granted for hunting.

This is why its so important when applying that a person tick as many boxes as they can justify (via range membership, hunting licenses, club membership, etc) so as to cover themselves for all purposes and uses of the gun they are seeking to license.

Same when applying for a rifle. Always apply for a suppressor. Even if you don't own one. Have the authorisation so if you want one you can simply buy one, and don't have to worry about applying all over again just for the "S".

CorkCBR6 · 14-11-2019 1:19am

Cass wrote: »

Funny, i was thinking of starting a thread based on this very topic, but with a different angle. However to avoid confusion i'll start a fresh thread..

Firstly to the OP there is no "like for like" in the law. Its a term used when the differences between currently licensed firearms and one(s) you wish to change to is so little as to NOT warrant a brand new application. The law says once the purpose, good reason, and difference in the firearms is not to the extent as to vastly change the original granting a substitution may be granted.

You may hear and see people that have gotten various types of substitutions on a like for like basis, but they are entirely at the Super's (hence the FOs) discretion. A few examples of ones i've seen, heard of and done:
A 22lr to another 22lr - No problem as both were unrestricted, rimfire firearms of the same caliber. Even from bolt action to semi auto.

A 223 to a 243 - They were classed as a like for like because both were bolt action, unrestricted, centrefire rifles.

A 223 to a 12 gage shotgun - This one even caught my eye as one was a rifle and the other a shotgun, but it was deemed like for like because both were unrestricted, and both were to be used for the hunting of game/vermin in the open season under general license.

A 243 to 308 - Both were used for deer and both were unrestricted and bolt action rifles.

You might actually be able to do it, but the FO, as the lads said above, will no doubt draw attention to the fact that one is a pistol and the other a rifle. You may argue that they are both rimfire, both unrestricted, and both the same caliber. Then the only obstacle you will face is the reason for granting. Was the rifle granted for target shooting? If not, and the pistol must be for this only, then the FO could argue that the rifle and pistol have different good reasons for being wanted and hence the license cannot be substituted.

Speak to your FO, and get a direct answer is the best bet rather than lose time waiting on a sub that may be refused.

Thanks Cass, the rifle was granted for both Target Shooting and Vermin Control (10/22).

Of course the pistol can only be used for the latter.

bmmb88 · 17-11-2019 4:43pm

I am substituting .22 pistol license. Do I use FAC 2 for this. Thanks

Cass · 17-11-2019 4:46pm

No. You use the FCA1 and tick "Substitution" in section 1.

You then fill out the FCA1 as follows:

Section 1 - Tick "substitution", and "I have not held a cert............".
Section 2.1 - All of it.
Section 2.2 - All of it.
Section 2.4 - All of it.
Section 3.1 - Input the details of new gun here
Section 3.2 - Tick Silencer if you want one/want to carry it to your new license
Section 3.3 - Dealers details.
Section 3.4 - Input your current firearm details here.
Section 3.5 - All of it.
Section 4.1 - All of it.
Section 4.2 - All of it.
Section 4.3 - Depending on whether you are a member of a range or gun club.
Section 5.1 - All of it.
Sign and date it.
Include a single photo, sign and date it.

Ignore sections:

2.3
2.5
4.4
5.2

Don't forget to attach all other relevant information on a separate sheet of paper.

bmmb88 · 17-11-2019 5:54pm

Thanks Cass, missed the sub box when I had a quick read of the form.

bmmb88 · 17-11-2019 7:44pm

Is'nt it a stupid system we have. I entered the exact same details, except for the new gun details, as on the original application. Surely there is a better way.

Cass · 17-11-2019 8:08pm

bmmb88 wrote: »

Do I use FAC 2 for this. Thanks

Just FYI, the FCA2 is used to cancel a license or amend an incorrect detail (wrong serial number, caliber, etc. ) It can also be used to change your address if you move during the course of your license.

bmmb88 wrote: »

Surely there is a better way.

From your lips to God's ears.

Shooting Forum - Firearms licencing information

Like for Like Substitution

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Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County

Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County