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Jerry Kiernan's thoughts on RWC 2019
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06-11-2019 2:20pm#1Interesting to read someone from another sport's take on it.
https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/other-sports/a-total-disgrace-says-kiernan-of-rt%C3%A9-s-lack-of-coverage-of-athletics-in-doha-1.4025246
Full text of article:
The plan all week was to write something vaguely political about the World Athletics Championships starting in Doha, Qatar, next Friday. So I rang Jerry Kiernan to get his thoughts, and maybe even a decent intro.
“A total disgrace,” he said bluntly, cutting straight to the chase as usual, even if he was initially talking about the lack of any planned coverage on RTÉ and not just the choice of host nation. That was just for starters, and Kiernan has clearly lost none of his unconditional love for the track or the field.
It could be argued that every sporting event is only as good or welcomed as its host nation, and if the last World Championships in London two years ago felt like a sort of homecoming, Doha has never felt quite right.
Not yet anyway – and not just because of the searing hot temperatures (the marathons, for example, starting at midnight to offer some relief).
Doha was awarded these championships back in 2014, ahead of Barcelona and Eugene,US, (who did get the 2021 championships) under then IAAF president Lamine Diack. He is a Senegalese businessman who has since been ordered to stand trial on charges of corruption and money laundering following a four-year investigation in France into doping cover-ups, extortion and bribe-taking in world athletics.
For Kiernan there does come a point when the host nation becomes separated from the event, for better or for worse, and on that note he thinks very differently.
“I actually cannot wait for Doha,” he said. “I met a friend in a coffee shop recently in Ranelagh, and told him ‘one week to go’. And he knew I wasn’t talking about the Rugby World Cup, or the Champions League. He knew I was talking about the World Athletics Championships.
“Now, RTÉ not showing them at least gives me the opportunity to view these things without having to sound clever. And putting the location aside, the World Athletics Championships still have widespread appeal. You only have to look at the participation. The Olympics are still nothing without athletics, the audience is still there, and most people would rate athletics as one of their favourite sports.
“I was just watching the two teams that opened the Rugby World Cup, Japan and Russia. And, I mean, there must be only 20 people who play rugby in Russia. Look at the world rankings. Italy are ranked higher in rugby than soccer. I spend a lot of time in Italy, and rugby a is non-sport in Italy, and yet they’re ranked 14th in the world.
“You have other powerhouses in there, such as Samoa or Tonga, and there are more people living in Cork city than there are in Tonga.
And yet you can’t turn on the telly without seeing an ad for the Rugby World Cup when most people don’t give a ****. The World Athletics Championships is a proper world event, and that’s why they should be shown.”
Nothing sounds sillier
Now, nothing sounds sillier in sport than people going around saying mine is bigger than yours. And I’m not talking about in the dressing room. Plenty of other sporting events have been arguing their size against the Rugby World Cup, only there’s no denying the significance of Japan for the countries with a chance of winning it, or even making the semi-finals, even if they are a relative minority.
Only five countries have contested the eight finals since 1987, only four have won them, and the number of countries to have contested the semi-finals is still a relatively elite eight (no reminder required of one of the countries yet to get that far).
Still, it’s all relative. The staging of the 17th World Athletics Championships has attracted 1,928 entries from 209 countries, comprising 1,039 men and 889 women across 50 different events. Of the 44 individual winners from two years ago in London, 38 will defend their titles in Doha over the 10 days.
The TV rights sold to over 200 countries, which does make RTɒs absence seem a little strange.
Doha will also begin in the face of some expected protests over Qatar’s illegal status for homosexuality, plus new research by Amnesty International published this week claiming hundreds of migrant workers in Qatar are going unpaid despite the country’s repeated promises to improve workers’ rights ahead of the 2022 Fifa World Cup.
Another part of the concern is that these 1,928 athletes in Doha may not even be the best qualified.
Mark English has missed out on a spot in the 800m under the new quota qualifying system, his 1:45.94 just shy of the automatic 1:45:80. He was ranked 41st of the 48 entries, only for eight places to go to countries permitted to send one athlete without any standard (Oman, UAE, East Timor, Myanmar, Kosovo, Jordan, Equatorial Guinea and Andorra)
It means the Irish team will consist of just seven athletes: Phil Healy (200m) and Michelle Finn (3,000m steeplechase) qualified under the event quotas, with Thomas Barr (400m hurdles), Ciara Mageean (1,500m), Alex Wright (20k walk) Brendan Boyce (50km walk) and Stephen Scullion (marathon) all qualifying on time.
Equally blunt
Kiernan’s predictions on that front are equally blunt.
“We won’t have anything really to shout about, and it doesn’t help when they’re bringing in a bunch of countries like East Timor, and I could probably run faster than them at this stage. So I can understand why Mark might have a gripe. But there is something there for next year for him, definitely, and now is the time to start preparing.
“I also agree the idea of giving anything to Doha, or anything sporting to the Arabian peninsula, should never happen for a multiplicity of reasons. They should never get anything.
“There’s no question they bought these championships. The same way they bought the World Cup for 2022. And a lot of saintly people in athletics and football allowed themselves to be bribed.”
He continued: “But they are there, and I think there will be some incredible races. I think we will celebrate all that is best about the sport.
“I won’t be worried about the hierarchy in Doha, who believe they can buy everything that moves.
“I also know athletics and cycling have always had a credibility issue, but the same should go for every other sport, golf or tennis or whatever. Athletics and cycling are making some effort to go out and catch people. The other sports don’t bother their arse.”1
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What did he say?0
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Jerry Kiernan used to criticise Ciara Mageean on the telly before he would have a chance to talk to her (he was her coach for those who don’t know).
No surprise she looks a lot happier and a lot more confident since she left him, not to mention her performances.
Says it all in my opinion.0 -
sydthebeat wrote: »grumble grumble..... minority sport rugby..... grumble grumble....too much coverage.... grumble grumble... athletics should get more coverage.... grumble grumble
I've had this debate with him before about the GAA.
It's no one's responsibility but the AAI to promote athletics. If the IRFU are better at promoting rugby that's not their fault.
Jerry's issue is with the profile of athletics and how it's promoted. The AAI should be building up domestic rivalries, we are a nationwide systemic performance enchancing program away from being competitive at world level and should recognise that we'll never be world beaters.
Where was this on?0 -
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In this case it was probably an RTE call - take most games of a major tournament we had the potential to do well in and even if we didn't people would still watch it anyway or cover a meet where we had a mere handful of competitors. The decision to have it in Doha didn't help in terms of timing.I've had this debate with him before about the GAA.
It's no one's responsibility but the AAI to promote athletics. If the IRFU are better at promoting rugby that's not their fault.
Jerry's issue is with the profile of athletics and how it's promoted. The AAI should be building up domestic rivalries, we are a nationwide systemic performance enchancing program away from being competitive at world level and should recognise that we'll never be world beaters.
Where was this on?0 -
It's also ridiculous to compare individual sports vs team sports. It's far easier to compete when it's only yourself. For comparison, look at how many play American Football outside of highschool, NCAA & NFL - in part because of the need for 106 players, a bunch of expensive equipment, and 5 refs just to play a game. They're all different sports, let's appreciate them all for what they are.0
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I'd be very surprised if the viewership for athletics in Ireland is anything close to international rugby.0
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Jerry Kiernan used to criticise Ciara Mageean on the telly before he would have a chance to talk to her (he was her coach for those who don’t know).
No surprise she looks a lot happier and a lot more confident since she left him, not to mention her performances.
Says it all in my opinion.
That's very unfair and unreasonable. Jerry is a terrific person, very well meaning and goes out of his way to help and give advice. I'd have nothing bad at all to say about him other than some of his opinions let him down from time to time.
He brought Ciara on a lot, he doesn't have access to the types of facilities and groups of athletes that other countries do, but he was the stepping stone Ciara needed to her current success.
And he criticises people all the time, generally quite legitimately so if they under perform.0 -
Interested Observer wrote: »I'd be very surprised if the viewership for athletics in Ireland is anything close to international rugby.
It's improved since my day but it's still a million miles away from the stadium support and the home audiences rugby has.
An AIL game would get about the level of interest of the All Ireland weekend for athletics. Mostly just family and some friends spectating.
The AAI have done an appalling job promoting the sport albeit they are relying on the international aspect which in my opinion is a mistake as we rarely medal.
Even in today's climate with park runs and fun runs being immensely popular, Athletics still can't build an audience. That's on the AAI - no one else imo.0 -
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I think Jerry Kiernan spouts some right crap sometimes, but I do agree with him regards the Rugby World Cup. There are 10 decent teams, the rest is just padding. Personally, I would enjoy a WC with the Top 10 teams playing in two groups of 5 run along the lines of 5 nations. Top 2 in each group into semi-finals. Can you imagine how many big games there would be.
Not a die-hard rugby fan, but as someone who always enjoyed it, I have zero interest in the group stages. I get that they are trying to develop it, but other than Argentina and Japan, no other teams have really developed to the necessary level which after 30+ years is really sad. I enjoy the 6 Nation much more as a tournament.
On the flip side, Jerry seems to think everyone in Ireland should be doing athletics and we would turn into some kind of competitive nation. Reality is, we could throw all the money in the World at Athletics and we still could not produce athletes to compete with the Africans at distance running or the Yanks, Jamacians etc at Sprint events, apart from maybe the offspring of some of our immigrants to Ireland as is currently happening.
Fact is even the World Athletic Championships are skewed, as countries are limited to how many they can enter per event so you do not always see all the best athletes in a particular events e.g. Kenya could probably put 10/20 athletes in a distance event that would be better than anyone from Europe, but are limited to 2/3. You need to watch the golden league for all the top ranked athletes competing.
Nobody really cares about field events and it is hard when all your friends are off having the craic in a team sport whilst you are out by yourself throwing the shot-put or doing the pole vault. You have to be very mentally tough to do that at 17/18 which is why so few do.
From my own experience, team sports, GAA, Soccer were always a bit of craic, even when losing. I always get a bit of a high from running, cycling and there can be quite a good social aspect as well. I tried most T & F sports as well and they just left me cold...in more ways than one.0 -
in many ways it's harder to promote athletics at least to point of getting people to go to events. Havent been to major international events and only been to schools all irelands indoors and outdoors in nenagh/tullamore but far harder to promote it when events are ultimately all day events compared toI've had this debate with him before about the GAA.
It's no one's responsibility but the AAI to promote athletics. If the IRFU are better at promoting rugby that's not their fault
max 2 hour rugby or field sport games.
build domestic rivalries how etc. We are far away. Facilities is major factor in that. Just look at our indoor facilities. Until recently Nenagh was sole indoor track. Fair play to the club there that developed thebtrack but it was so far from international standard...Jerry's issue is with the profile of athletics and how it's promoted. The AAI should be building up domestic rivalries, we are a nationwide systemic performance enchancing program away from being competitive at world level and should recognise that we'll never be world beaters.
Where was this on?
I wouldnt agree but it's very hard athletics cant compare itself tonfield sports fornattwjdance considering what makes up a main event for each.It's improved since my day but it's still a million miles away from the stadium support and the home audiences rugby has.
An AIL game would get about the level of interest of the All Ireland weekend for athletics. Mostly just family and some friends spectating.
The AAI have done an appalling job promoting the sport albeit they are relying on the international aspect which in my opinion is a mistake as we rarely medal.
Even in today's climate with park runs and fun runs being immensely popular, Athletics still can't build an audience. That's on the AAI - no one else imo.
a rugby world cup like you describe with 10 teams is just like an Olympics without majority of countries....Fr D Maugire wrote: »I think Jerry Kiernan spouts some right crap sometimes, but I do agree with him regards the Rugby World Cup. There are 10 decent teams, the rest is just padding. Personally, I would enjoy a WC with the Top 10 teams playing in two groups of 5 run along the lines of 5 nations. Top 2 in each group into semi-finals. Can you imagine how many big games there would be.
Not a die-hard rugby fan, but as someone who always enjoyed it, I have zero interest in the group stages. I get that they are trying to develop it, but other than Argentina and Japan, no other teams have really developed to the necessary level which after 30+ years is really sad. I enjoy the 6 Nation much more as a tournament.
On the flip side, Jerry seems to think everyone in Ireland should be doing athletics and we would turn into some kind of competitive nation. Reality is, we could throw all the money in the World at Athletics and we still could not produce athletes to compete with the Africans at distance running or the Yanks, Jamacians etc at Sprint events, apart from maybe the offspring of some of our immigrants to Ireland as is currently happening.
Fact is even the World Athletic Championships are skewed, as countries are limited to how many they can enter per event so you do not always see all the best athletes in a particular events e.g. Kenya could probably put 10/20 athletes in a distance event that would be better than anyone from Europe, but are limited to 2/3. You need to watch the golden league for all the top ranked athletes competing.
Nobody really cares about field events and it is hard when all your friends are off having the craic in a team sport whilst you are out by yourself throwing the shot-put or doing the pole vault. You have to be very mentally tough to do that at 17/18 which is why so few do.
From my own experience, team sports, GAA, Soccer were always a bit of craic, even when losing. I always get a bit of a high from running, cycling and there can be quite a good social aspect as well. I tried most T & F sports as well and they just left me cold...in more ways than one.
Considering how games go it takes lot of time for countries to develop. Yes Ireland, England, new Zealand etc could do more to help countries get to a higher level but still very hard to do.0 -
"a rugby world cup like you describe with 10 teams is just like an Olympics without majority of countries....
Considering how games go it takes lot of time for countries to develop. Yes Ireland, England, new Zealand etc could do more to help countries get to a higher level but still very hard to do."
Sorry Lost Sheep, I don't quite follow your logic here.
86 countries won medals at the last Olympics, 40 alone won medals in T & F with 20 countries winning Gold. What countries should be left out exactly?
I think that is Jerry Kiernan's point re Rugby. T & F in Olympics, there is a very high qualifying standard so people have to be at a very high level regardless of Country. If you do not meet that standard, you simply don't go. I think they still give out a few places to no-hopers, but they are in a minority and everybody know they are simply there for the experience.
Can you say the same for rugby? outside the major rugby playing countries, rugby is a miniscule sport in most countries, so naturally the level is not very high, but those countries can still qualify for the WC because the level is so low. That is the difference.0 -
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Entertainment appeal of rugby > entertainment appeal of athletics imo, not even a comparison, and my background was athletics not rugby0
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The Lost Sheep wrote: »build domestic rivalries how etc. We are far away. Facilities is major factor in that. Just look at our indoor facilities. Until recently Nenagh was sole indoor track. Fair play to the club there that developed thebtrack but it was so far from international standard...
I think the AAI should forget about promoting the international aspect of the sport. They should adopt a more GAA approach, look to promote the larger clubs initially and focus on the interclub and inter county cross country as good events with rivalry and pride on the line.
The Track and Field all Ireland should be organised so that the major finals are all in a two hour window. The AAI should be getting as many schools involved as possible, get kids out watching high standard domestic athletics for free.Entertainment appeal of rugby > entertainment appeal of athletics imo, not even a comparison, and my background was athletics not rugby
Disagree and I'm a rugby fanatic. A high quality mile with a solid competitive field is 4 minutes of pure excitement. It's one of the best events in the world to watch.0 -
Apologies if deviating slightly but just on the topic of popularity of rugby, in fairness it has certainly grown tenfold in Ireland over the past 15 years, to the point its a heavy feature on the sports pages, news bulletins and newspapers
How is it as a mainstream sport in England though? Would the World Cup final have been the main sports story on saturday or would even Liverpool's comeback in a standard premier league saturday game usurp it?
based on extremely anecdotal evidence I personally found much more talk online and on my social media timelines of lewis Hamilton's F1 win on Sunday and even Andy Murray winning a minor tournament a few weeks ago, than England's win against NZ.
I'm guessing the technical nature of the game and perhaps the predominant ex-private school make-up of the team may be reasons the casual viewer might not be as quick to buy in or identify with the game. Interestingly Owen farrell won a six nations title, starred in the Lions tour and won a European Cup in 2017 with saracens yet wasn't even in the conversation for a SPOTY nomination in 2017. Does this show Rugby is way down the pecking order in England alone, which (I assume) has the highest level of participation in the game?0 -
How is it as a mainstream sport in England though? Would the World Cup final have been the main sports story on saturday or would even Liverpool's comeback in a standard premier league saturday game usurp it?
Both leadership hopefuls in the upcoming general election tweeted the team good luck - that's about as mainstream as it gets.0 -
Unlike most people here, I think Jerry speaks a lot of sense. When it comes to athletic achievement our elite international athletes are on a much higher plain than our GAA 'stars'. But where I disagree with him is complaining about coverage of same. The national athletic champs are attended by a good crowd but they can only dream of the crowds that a GAA championship game can get.0
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“And yet you can’t turn on the telly without seeing an ad for the Rugby World Cup when most people don’t give a ****. The World Athletics Championships is a proper world event, and that’s why they should be shown“
Wrong. Whether it’s a “proper” global event or not is irrelevant. If RTÉ went out and spent their measly budget on athletics that almost nobody watches in Ireland it would be a nonsense.
Isn’t Ireland v Romania still the highest attended rugby World Cup match ever? Thousands of Irish people follow rugby. Even the crowds at domestic AIL matches far outstrip athletics.
An avid follower of a minority sport bitter that Irish people don’t care as much about it as he does.0 -
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Apologies if deviating slightly but just on the topic of popularity of rugby, in fairness it has certainly grown tenfold in Ireland over the past 15 years, to the point its a heavy feature on the sports pages, news bulletins and newspapers
How is it as a mainstream sport in England though? Would the World Cup final have been the main sports story on saturday or would even Liverpool's comeback in a standard premier league saturday game usurp it?
based on extremely anecdotal evidence I personally found much more talk online and on my social media timelines of lewis Hamilton's F1 win on Sunday and even Andy Murray winning a minor tournament a few weeks ago, than England's win against NZ.
I'm guessing the technical nature of the game and perhaps the predominant ex-private school make-up of the team may be reasons the casual viewer might not be as quick to buy in or identify with the game. Interestingly Owen farrell won a six nations title, starred in the Lions tour and won a European Cup in 2017 with saracens yet wasn't even in the conversation for a SPOTY nomination in 2017. Does this show Rugby is way down the pecking order in England alone, which (I assume) has the highest level of participation in the game?
You do know the background of Owen Farrell?
Wigan? Not exactly Upper class. If he was part of the establishment he may have made a SPOTY nomination.
As for your social media timelines? You do know how they work don't you?0 -
SPOTY awards generally do not go to team players.
In the last 10 years the only person that played in a team sports to win was Ryan Giggs, back in 2009.
theres only been one rugby player to win in all its years since 1954, and that was Jonny wilkinson in 2003.
i certainly wouldn't be using it as yardstick to measure the popularity of sports.0 -
sydthebeat wrote: »SPOTY awards generally do not go to team players.
In the last 10 years the only person that played in a team sports to win was Ryan Giggs, back in 2009.
theres only been one rugby player to win in all its years since 1954, and that was Jonny wilkinson in 2003.
i certainly wouldn't be using it as yardstick to measure the popularity of sports.
I was talking about nominations though, not winners. There's very often cricket and football players on the shortlist0 -
As for your social media timelines? You do know how they work don't you?
Well I only follow actual people I know, as well as some newspaper/media accounts. About 200 I'd say would be English people covering all my social media accounts. Met plenty travelling, lived there for a year etc. I don't follow specific F1/tennis accounts if that's what you mean
My question isn't meaning to be insulting to rugby or anything. I'd say only Itoje and maybe Farrell (as kicker and captain) at a stretch, would be the only players I would have thought would be recognisable to the wider English public.
Probably the wrong place to ask though in hindsight0 -
My question isn't meaning to be insulting to rugby or anything. I'd say only Itoje and maybe Farrell (as kicker and captain) at a stretch, would be the only players I would have thought would be recognisable to the wider English public.
Probably the wrong place to ask though in hindsight
im not sure what your point is.
england has a fully functioning professional league which contains 2 divisions, totaling 24 professional teams.
12.8 million people in britian watched the RWC 2019 final. the single most watched event on tv in 2019 so far
thats 20% of the population.
i think your opinion is founded on some illogical bases.0 -
Both leadership hopefuls in the upcoming general election tweeted the team good luck - that's about as mainstream as it gets.
There is an election coming up, what do you expect ?sydthebeat wrote: »im not sure what your point is.
england has a fully functioning professional league which contains 2 divisions, totaling 24 professional teams.
12.8 million people in britian watched the RWC 2019 final. the single most watched event on tv in 2019 so far
thats 20% of the population.
i think your opinion is founded on some illogical bases.
Is it really that difficult to figure out the posters point
They are asking if a rugby world cup final in England would be high profile enough to be the main sports news or would the majority of the media attention still go to soccer ?
Personally I don't know, I consume very little UK media.
I would not expect it to reach the levels of attention the soccer world cup got in 2018 but I did find this from The GuardianEngland’s Rugby World Cup final defeat was the most watched British TV event of the year so far, with a peak audience of 12.8 million tuning in to see Eddie Jones’ side lose to South Africa 32-12 on Saturday morning.
Not only did the match on ITV beat the final episode of series five of Line of Duty, which had 12.1m viewers, but it was also the most-watched sports programme on any channel since the 2018 football World Cup. This year’s best figures had been for the Women’s World Cup semi-final between England and USA (11.8m peak), the Wimbledon men’s final (10.4m) and cricket’s World Cup final (7.8m).
The cricket probably needs an astreix there because if I'm not mistaken that was on Sky only.
The England v Croatia WC SF in 2018 had 26m viewers peak
https://www.itv.com/presscentre/press-releases/england-v-croatia-semi-final-peaks-266m-viewers0 -
Benedict XVI wrote: »Is it really that difficult to figure out the posters point
yes... because the info i posted, which is exactly the same that you posted... is very easily accessed.
if their point is simply the questionWould the World Cup final have been the main sports story on saturday or would even Liverpool's comeback in a standard premier league saturday game usurp it?
the the overwhelming answer to that is an obvious "yes the RWC final would have been the main story"
it featured not only as the main on the back pages, but also on the front pages of the hard copies.
the posters supposition that its not popular is purely based on what they say is anecdotal evidence, and i will suggest, a bias of some kind based on this statement:I'm guessing the technical nature of the game and perhaps the predominant ex-private school make-up of the team may be reasons the casual viewer might not be as quick to buy in or identify with the game
however, as I, and you, have shown, the game is very popular with the "casual" viewer.
obviously not as generally popular as cricket or football, but on big events such as the RWC and 6Ns it becomes extremely popular.0 -
sydthebeat wrote: »yes... because the info i posted, which is exactly the same that you posted... is very easily accessed.
if their point is simply the question
the the overwhelming answer to that is an obvious "yes the RWC final would have been the main story"
it featured not only as the main on the back pages, but also on the front pages of the hard copies.
the posters supposition that its not popular is purely based on what they say is anecdotal evidence, and i will suggest, a bias of some kind based on this statement:
however, as I, and you, have shown, the game is very popular with the "casual" viewer.
obviously not as generally popular as cricket or football, but on big events such as the RWC and 6Ns it becomes extremely popular.
But is a peak of 12.8m+ "very popular" relative to other sports/events in a country (England) of 55m ? (I think the figure is actually for the whole of GB)
Look at the number for the ladies soccer WC SF, 11.8m.
Men's rugby world cup final is only beating ladies world cup semi-final by 1m or ~8%, that's interesting.
It's probably popular in pockets of the country, and with people of certain backgrounds and maybe the English don't do the event junkie stuff to the same degree as us Irish.0 -
Benedict XVI wrote: »But is a peak of 12.8m+ "very popular" relative to other sports/events in a country (England) of 55m ? (I think the figure is actually for the whole of GB)
.
yes it is... incredibly so.0 -
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Benedict XVI wrote: »Is it really that difficult to figure out the posters point
They are asking if a rugby world cup final in England would be high profile enough to be the main sports news or would the majority of the media attention still go to soccer ?
Yeah, exactly that
Was just merely curious is all, given the rise in popularity amongst casual viewers in Ireland over the last decade or so, I was just wondering at what level the casual interest was in England.
certainly wasn't looking to offend or anything, but I guess the rugby forum in retrospect wasn't exactly the best place to ask, probably more a question for general sports fans0
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