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Shooting Forum - Firearms licencing information


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Lead ammunition ban

  • 05-11-2019 10:54pm
    #1
    amacca
    Registered Users Posts: 6,740 ✭✭✭


    Apologies if this has been discussed already etc (feel free to delete thread mods if it's not what forum is for)

    Would just like a couple of things clarified (if that's possible)

    Will the ban on lead ammunition if implemented render some firearms obsolete?

    Can these fire arms be modified to take similar calibre steel ammunition or should they be able to shoot it unmodified

    What types of firearms would be obsolete if at all ... Will there be some form of compensation or replacement scheme if a firearm is rendered obsolete

    What would modification cost?
    How much would the new ammunition cost ...is it much more expensive than older lead type?

    Is this ban likely to come In?


Comments

  • #2
    GooseB
    Registered Users Posts: 166 ✭✭GooseB


    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057981169


  • #3
    meathstevie
    Registered Users Posts: 4,772 ✭✭✭meathstevie


    I couldn’t tell you what the story is with rifles, rimfire or centerfire. I don’t know enough about so called non-toxic rifle ammunition.

    For shotguns the general rule of thumb is when the gun has a CIP fleur-de-lis proof mark it’s ok to shoot steel shot through it.

    The elephant in the room though is that there’s very little if any conclusive scientific evidence out there about the toxic effects of lead ammunition in the environment.

    There’s a lot of scientific information about the problems relating to extremely small particles of lead in all sorts of materials like petrol and paint and so on but in how far that can be extrapolated to lead flashing, water pipes and relatively rather large chunks of lead used for fishing or in ammunition is in my opinion a different story.


  • #4
    Grizzly 45
    Registered Users Posts: 14,949 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    amacca wrote: »
    Apologies if this has been discussed already etc (feel free to delete thread mods if it's not what forum is for)

    Would just like a couple of things clarified (if that's possible)

    Will the ban on lead ammunition if implemented render some firearms obsolete?

    Can these fire arms be modified to take similar calibre steel ammunition or should they be able to shoot it unmodified

    What types of firearms would be obsolete if at all ... Will there be some form of compensation or replacement scheme if a firearm is rendered obsolete

    What would modification cost?
    How much would the new ammunition cost ...is it much more expensive than older lead type?

    Is this ban likely to come In?

    Ok some relatively good news on this is;there is shotgun ammo out there that is non lead based that can be used in non steel proofed shotguns.So no need to be looking at retiring ol Betsy to the scrap heap just yet.Bad news is that it isn't an effective material for a clean kill on winged game'or how much it will cost per box.

    Rifle ammo is a different bucket of fish.All steel rounds are a no no,due to accruacy and EU law as it is classified as armour pierceing ammo.There are such things as copper rounds and metal composite rifle rounds,but its a question of accruaccy 'price'and what effects will masses of copper have in the enviroment too.

    Forget compensation in this case.No one is confiscating your gun for the common good of society.You can still own it,and use it,if you have ammo for it and aren't shooting on "wetlands",which in theory could be 80% of Ireland,should the EU directive be implimented in full.

    When it comes in,is anyones guess.It's still in the study and submission phase in Brussels.It then has to be adopted into Irish law and that's the last chance for any Irish shooting organisation to try and influence it.

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • #5
    Gorgeousgeorge
    Registered Users Posts: 1,026 ✭✭✭Gorgeousgeorge


    Grizzly 45 wrote: »
    Ok some relatively good news on this is;there is shotgun ammo out there that is non lead based that can be used in non steel proofed shotguns.So no need to be looking at retiring ol Betsy to the scrap heap just yet.Bad news is that it isn't an effective material for a clean kill on winged game'or how much it will cost per box.

    Rifle ammo is a different bucket of fish.All steel rounds are a no no,due to accruacy and EU law as it is classified as armour pierceing ammo.There are such things as copper rounds and metal composite rifle rounds,but its a question of accruaccy 'price'and what effects will masses of copper have in the enviroment too.

    Forget compensation in this case.No one is confiscating your gun for the common good of society.You can still own it,and use it,if you have ammo for it and aren't shooting on "wetlands",which in theory could be 80% of Ireland,should the EU directive be implimented in full.

    When it comes in,is anyones guess.It's still in the study and submission phase in Brussels.It then has to be adopted into Irish law and that's the last chance for any Irish shooting organisation to try and influence it.

    whats the non lead ammo that can be shot in non steel proofed guns? is it bismuth or tungsten matrix?


  • #6
    oldgit1897
    Closed Accounts Posts: 286 ✭✭oldgit1897


    Bismuth cartridges are about 50 euro a box, 2 quid a bang.


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  • #7
    Gorgeousgeorge
    Registered Users Posts: 1,026 ✭✭✭Gorgeousgeorge


    oldgit1897 wrote: »
    Bismuth cartridges are about 50 euro a box, 2 quid a bang.

    just seen the eley vip bismuth 34g is 45 pound a box! :eek:


  • #8
    Grizzly 45
    Registered Users Posts: 14,949 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    Gorgeousgeorge wrote: »
    whats the non lead ammo that can be shot in non steel proofed guns? is it bismuth or tungsten matrix?

    Tombak...
    A brass/copper alloy.

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • #9
    onetimecypher
    Closed Accounts Posts: 95 ✭✭onetimecypher


    Bismuth is also a by-product of lead production, so no lead no bismuth


  • #10
    BattleCorp
    Registered Users Posts: 11,758 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    onetimecypher wrote: »
    Bismuth is also a by-product of lead production, so no lead no bismuth

    No proposals to ban lead, just the use of lead when shooting in wetlands.


  • #11
    270WIN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 213 ✭✭270WIN


    Has anyone here used steel cartridges? What are they like as opposed to normal lead?


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  • #12
    Grizzly 45
    Registered Users Posts: 14,949 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    BattleCorp wrote: »
    No proposals to ban lead, just the use of lead when shooting in wetlands.

    Thats just the start mate.Its a EU four point plan to restrict ALL firearms via their ammo.

    1] Ban lead shot over "wetlands" 99 % of the EU has some form of a ban restriction on this,bar of course,Ireland.We are flying bare assed in the wind on this legislation,as we were never arsed to address it.Now Europa is doing it for us,and it wont be pretty.:mad:

    2]Ban the use of lead shot on clay ranges,or for upland bird hunting,enviromental damage and lead injestion in the game bird meat.

    3] Ban the use of lead bullets in hunting,due to the danger of lead chipping and micro chips getting into the meat you shot and might pass onto others.

    4] Ban the use of lead bullets for target shooting on enviromental health grounds on ranges and in the backstops.Well,of course,as we all go and play in the backstop earth or grow veggies on the backstop,we are obviously going to get affected by this lead poisioning.

    5] Ban the casting and reloading of lead ammo,because,its just so dangerous to your health and...reasons!

    Its all there in the EU working papers,if you care enough to read thru them.

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • #13
    oldgit1897
    Closed Accounts Posts: 286 ✭✭oldgit1897


    270WIN wrote: »
    Has anyone here used steel cartridges? What are they like as opposed to normal lead?

    Anyone i have talked to who have used them say they are very thumpy recoil wise. Iron/steel is lighter than lead and loses velocity faster, which means for it to be effective, it has to be driven faster, which means higher powder loads and higher pressures OR the same powder loads and pressures and worse ballistic performance.

    Pure lead is a very malleable metal, it deforms very easily, so when it strikes a bird it deforms passing the energy of the pellets into the bird giving a clean kill. Iron or steel, no matter how soft is going to pass through the body of the bird and not give you kills as clean. Its akin to shooting deer with FMJ bullets, the bullet zips through and doesn't dump the kinetic energy into the animal killing it cleanly.


  • #14
    oldgit1897
    Closed Accounts Posts: 286 ✭✭oldgit1897


    BattleCorp wrote: »
    No proposals to ban lead, just the use of lead when shooting in wetlands.

    Thin end of the wedge BC, if they get this through, the door is open to restrict or ban the rest.


  • #15
    BattleCorp
    Registered Users Posts: 11,758 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    oldgit1897 wrote: »
    Thin end of the wedge BC, if they get this through, the door is open to restrict or ban the rest.

    I worded it badly. I was replying to the comment that bismuth was a by-product of lead production and if there was no lead, there'd be no bismuth. I meant it to mean that there's no proposal to ban lead such as lead used as flashing etc. and that lead would still be produced. In other words it's not being banned like asbestos has been banned.

    Ah yeah, absolutely everything that can be done to get rid of shooting is being done. Death by 1000 cuts.


  • #16
    oldgit1897
    Closed Accounts Posts: 286 ✭✭oldgit1897


    BattleCorp wrote: »
    I worded it badly. I was replying to the comment that bismuth was a by-product of lead production and if there was no lead, there'd be no bismuth. I meant it to mean that there's no proposal to ban lead such as lead used as flashing etc. and that lead would still be produced. In other words it's not being banned like asbestos has been banned.

    Ah yeah, absolutely everything that can be done to get rid of shooting is being done. Death by 1000 cuts.

    Lead is still made but not for very much longer i think. The EPA in America has closed the last remaining lead producer in the states. How long do you think it will be till the eussr follow suit ?

    https://www.nraila.org/articles/20131025/end-of-an-era-last-us-lead-smelter-to-close-in-december


  • #17
    berettaman
    Registered Users Posts: 553 ✭✭✭berettaman


    BattleCorp wrote: »
    No proposals to ban lead, just the use of lead when shooting in wetlands.


    Yeah but the problem is the definition of Wetlands that REACH uses means all of Ireland is deemed a wetland. Hence the problem..


  • #18
    ayagerard
    Registered Users Posts: 93 ✭✭ayagerard


    the couple of hundred tons of lead scattered around the world used as small arm ammo is like looking for hens teeth in a five acre field . irrelevant to the environment when you see how much lead is mined and produced in the world world, in 2017 these are the figures compiled not 12 months ago .

    https://investingnews.com/daily/resource-investing/base-metals-investing/lead-investing/lead-producing-countries/

    Europe's largest zinc mine
    Tara in Ireland is Europe's largest zinc mine and also one of the largest in a global comparison. Since mining began in 1977, more than 85 million tonnes of ore have been extracted. Boliden acquired the mine in 2004.

    Thanks to exploration and acquisitions, the mineral reserve and mineral resources have grown continuously. In recent years, Tara has focused on improving its cost position through productivity enhancing investments and savings measures. Around 2.6 million tonnes of ore are mined annually for the production of zinc and lead concentrates.
    just to clarify is this not the pot calling the kettle black if it is an environmental issue, why go after sardines if there are whales in the pond has there been an impact study done if the same amount of copper is scattered around the world what impact will it have on the environment and on wildlife what effect will greenmire rather than redmire have on water.lead is found naturally in 65%of the world' s earth copper is not and why are countries that had a lead ban in place on ammo now reversing those lead bans ??????????.
    why will the army be still allowed lead ammunition surely we wouldn't want them poisoning themselves while practising ????????????
    still a lot of questions to be asked and answered every politicians ears should be wringing to the point that they have nightmares about lead


  • #19
    oldgit1897
    Closed Accounts Posts: 286 ✭✭oldgit1897


    ayagerard wrote: »
    the couple of hundred tons of lead scattered around the world used as small arm ammo is like looking for hens teeth in a five acre field . irrelevant to the environment when you see how much lead is mined and produced in the world world, in 2017 these are the figures compiled not 12 months ago .

    https://investingnews.com/daily/resource-investing/base-metals-investing/lead-investing/lead-producing-countries/

    Europe's largest zinc mine
    Tara in Ireland is Europe's largest zinc mine and also one of the largest in a global comparison. Since mining began in 1977, more than 85 million tonnes of ore have been extracted. Boliden acquired the mine in 2004.

    Thanks to exploration and acquisitions, the mineral reserve and mineral resources have grown continuously. In recent years, Tara has focused on improving its cost position through productivity enhancing investments and savings measures. Around 2.6 million tonnes of ore are mined annually for the production of zinc and lead concentrates.
    just to clarify is this not the pot calling the kettle black if it is an environmental issue, why go after sardines if there are whales in the pond has there been an impact study done if the same amount of copper is scattered around the world what impact will it have on the environment and on wildlife what effect will greenmire rather than redmire have on water.lead is found naturally in 65%of the world' s earth copper is not and why are countries that had a lead ban in place on ammo now reversing those lead bans ??????????.
    why will the army be still allowed lead ammunition surely we wouldn't want them poisoning themselves while practising ????????????
    still a lot of questions to be asked and answered every politicians ears should be wringing to the point that they have nightmares about lead


    Its all public relations bullplop. Everybody has gone green, despite driving a huge new Audi or BMW. So its an ideal way for the government to show their green credentials and be seen to be "doing something". You and me know it will achieve SFA, its all a window dressing exercise, leo will be in the independent and times banging out the buzz-words and the gullible believe it.


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