Fiat Chrysler and Peugeot to merge

[Deleted User] · 31-10-2019 9:38am #1

https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2019/1031/1087713-fca-psa-tie-up-deal/
More consolation in the car industry.

Fiat Chrysler (brands Abarth, Alfa Romeo, Chrysler, Dodge, Fiat, Fiat Professional, Jeep, Lancia, Maserati, and Ram Trucks) is in talks to merge with PSA (brands Peugeot, Citroën, DS, Opel and Vauxhall)

There seems to be a lot of overlap between those brands especially here in Europe.

Arthur Daley · 31-10-2019 10:06am

This did fail to get off the ground before. But suspect that the situation at Fiat re: new models was concentrating minds and there was a lot of desire to get a deal done.

colm_mcm · 31-10-2019 10:22am

Is there any synergy between the brands in Europe? I know PSA and Fiat collaborate on the Ducato/Boxer/Relay, but then Fiat are selling rebranded Renault Trafics too.

[Deleted User] · 31-10-2019 10:55am

A quick poke around on Wikipedia suggests there are no common platforms or engines other than some diesel engines common with some Opel models I'm not very familiar with.

Stallingrad · 31-10-2019 11:04am

PSA is going from strength to strength, Peugeot profitability is booming and is the envy of the sector.

Why they would want to buy into the basket case of loss makers is baffling!

PukkaStukka · 31-10-2019 11:32am

Stallingrad wrote: »

PSA is going from strength to strength, Peugeot profitability is booming and is the envy of the sector.

Why they would want to buy into the basket case of loss makers is baffling!

Didn't similar once apply to Anglo Irish Bank?

Anyway I digress. This proposed merger was discussed last night on TV and the commentators are saying consolidatiin within the industry is being driven by the need for technology to advance enormously, and the costs of doing so are so great that individual smaller manufacturers are going to struggle. So mergers and code elopement of new technologies seems to be the order in the world of motor manufacturing

loyatemu · 31-10-2019 12:00pm

Arthur Daley wrote: »

This did fail to get off the ground before.

that was Fiat+Renault - it fell through because of issues with Nissan (who are part-owned by Renault)

jimgoose · 31-10-2019 12:01pm

loyatemu wrote: »

that was Fiat+Renault - it fell through because of issues with Nissan (who are part-owned by Renault)

ISTR General Motors held 7% of PSA stock back around 2012, and sold it again soon enough.

bazz26 · 31-10-2019 12:05pm

Stallingrad wrote: »

PSA is going from strength to strength, Peugeot profitability is booming and is the envy of the sector.

Why they would want to buy into the basket case of loss makers is baffling!

Well buying a company that's flying high makes little financial sense most of the time as it's value will be too high. They bought Opel/Vauxhall in similar fashion when their parent company GM just wanted rid. The PSA Group are aiming to become one of the big 3 global car manufacturing umbrella companies similar to VAG and Toyota. It's only a matter of time before there are only a hand full of car manufacturers dominating the global markets.

PukkaStukka · 31-10-2019 12:08pm

bazz26 wrote: »

It's only a matter of time before there are only a hand full of car manufacturers dominating the global markets.

I agree, and a big part of me feels this isn't necessarily a good thing

jimgoose · 31-10-2019 12:09pm

bazz26 wrote: »

Well buying a company that's flying high makes little financial sense most of the time as it's value will be too high. They bought Opel/Vauxhall in similar fashion when their parent company GM just wanted rid. The PSA Group are aiming to become one of the big 3 global car manufacturing umbrella companies similar to VAG and Toyota. It's only a matter of time before there are only a hand full of car manufacturers dominating the global markets.

Quite so. It's also worth pointing out that most of them are scared stiff of the Koreans. :pac:

road_high · 31-10-2019 12:21pm

Stallingrad wrote: »

PSA is going from strength to strength, Peugeot profitability is booming and is the envy of the sector.

Why they would want to buy into the basket case of loss makers is baffling!

Jeep and their SUV range is the real prize for them. They’re not popular here but are huge sellers in the US and other markets

[Deleted User] · 31-10-2019 12:25pm

road_high wrote: »

Jeep and their SUV range is the real prize for them. They’re not popular here but are huge sellers in the US and other markets

I was thinking that. They are active in places like Brazil but have no presence in the US.
It is a way of buying an established US brand.

SafeSurfer · 31-10-2019 12:25pm

There is no guarantee that any of the current major auto makers will be among the top 5 auto makers by the end of the next decade.
A centuries experience making internal combustion engines is of little use when designing electric vehicles.

KevRossi · 31-10-2019 12:28pm

Maybe we’ll get another Citroen SM, with the Maserati engine and a decent build quality. One of the most beautiful (and unreliable) cars of all time.

bazz26 · 31-10-2019 12:36pm

SafeSurfer wrote: »

There is no guarantee that any of the current major auto makers will be among the top 5 auto makers by the end of the next decade.
A centuries experience making internal combustion engines is of little use when designing electric vehicles.

An ev is just a different type of technology to ice, these companies already know how to produce and sell motoring products so I don't think it will take them very long to change the product they are selling. They are playing catch up to the likes of Tesla but they are catching up fast now and I wouldn't be surprised if Tesla just get enveloped by one of these global giants at some point. The big companies will just evolve.

colm_mcm · 31-10-2019 12:39pm

Fiat are also selling a rebranded Mitsubishi, who are now owned by Nissan, so therefore Renault.

wcooba · 31-10-2019 3:27pm

Fiat & Renault merger fell through earlier this year. This indicates Fiat is pretty desperate - most likely because they don't have any EV platform. PSA does thanks to their Chinese stakeholder/technology partner (yes 208e and the new ev Corsa are Chinese under the hood). What PSA/Chinese will get from that - of course access to the US market...

freddieot · 31-10-2019 6:36pm

SafeSurfer wrote: »

There is no guarantee that any of the current major auto makers will be among the top 5 auto makers by the end of the next decade.
A centuries experience making internal combustion engines is of little use when designing electric vehicles.

There have been electric powered cars as far back as the Model T Ford. If they had no oil in Texas (discovered round the same time as the development of motors) we would be all driving electric now with 800-1,000k capable batteries...

It's not new, or rocket science, or the preserve of specialist manufacturers but is just the next new best way to make huge profits in the industry. By the end of the next decade the bigger players will make some of the pioneers of recent years look like dinosaurs now that they are starting to firmly put their resources behind electric.

Philb76 · 31-10-2019 9:14pm

Stallingrad wrote: »

PSA is going from strength to strength, Peugeot profitability is booming and is the envy of the sector.

Why they would want to buy into the basket case of loss makers is baffling!

Audi skoda and seat were once basket cases until vw transformed could also be an outlay to sell Peugeots in the states we here in Ireland think French cars don't sell well but they have the market sewn up in most of Europe see very few Ford's or Toyota's it's all renault and Peugeot

Mad_maxx · 31-10-2019 10:47pm

road_high wrote: »

Jeep and their SUV range is the real prize for them. They’re not popular here but are huge sellers in the US and other markets

Fiat sells well everywhere bar Western Europe, beit jeep in the USA and Australia or fiat cars in South America, Africa and Eastern Europe, it's a huge company

road_high · 31-10-2019 11:05pm

Philb76 wrote: »

Audi skoda and seat were once basket cases until vw transformed could also be an outlay to sell Peugeots in the states we here in Ireland think French cars don't sell well but they have the market sewn up in most of Europe see very few Ford's or Toyota's it's all renault and Peugeot

French cars do sell well here too! Always did really. Renault always around no 5/6 in sales. Peugeot no 9/10 brand. Citroen are a lot less popular here than in mainland Europe though as they never had a great name here - people see them
As flaky and awkward

GeneHunt · 20-11-2019 5:56pm

PSA-FCA Won't Cut brands!!!

https://autoweek.com/article/car-news/confirmed-psa-fca-wont-cut-brands-those-alfa-romeo-sports-cars-are-now-dead

It's an interesting merger, PSA were looking at getting Peugeot back into North America, this is probably one of the better ways to do that for them at this stage. I'm not familiar with all the Fiat Chysler (FCA) product ranges, especially the US market, but from what I can see (via Google & Wikipedia), FCA has very little in the works relating to electric or PHEV platforms (they say they do in a few articles). For FCA, this merger gives them access to the PSA platforms designed for electric and Plug-in Hybrid powertains.

Apparently the current merger talks has put a number of products under development on hold, but if this merger does go a-head, what areas should they start harmonizing first?

The Fiat 500 has been around since 2007, it was face-lifted in 2016, I'm assuming there should be a new Fiat 500/ Abarth 500/ Lancia Ypsilon all in the late development stage with a very soon launch date, but I can't find must evidence of it yet. Lets say they have a new 500 in the bag, so where else.

The current Fiat Panda has been around since 2011, so maybe the next Fiat Panda could be based on the new Peugeot 208 platform and that gives Fiat a electric Panda, or a Fiat ePunto based on the Peugeot e208 / Opel Corsa-E. How about Panda-X, similar to the 500X, but this would be based on the Peugeot 2008 giving the option for a electric powertrain.

The next Fiat Tipo and Alfa Romeo Giulietta could probably be based on the next generation Peugeot 308/ Opel Astra platform, which is due around 2021.

Could we see a DS9 Crossback based on the Maserati Levante!!!

Dravokivich · 20-11-2019 8:46pm

Odd to see comments of fiat with no EV asperations. I thought fiat had something arranged with tesla, to buy drivetrains off them for EV?

colm_mcm · 20-11-2019 9:51pm

Dravokivich wrote: »

Odd to see comments of fiat with no EV asperations. I thought fiat had something arranged with tesla, to buy drivetrains off them for EV?

They had agreed a dodge whereby Tesla would be counted in Fiats portfolio in Europe and thus reduce Fiats collective emissions. A little bit like the Aston Martin Cygnet/Toyota iQ but with no actual car.

That’s my understanding of it anyway.

swarlb · 21-11-2019 10:21am

Dravokivich wrote: »

Odd to see comments of fiat with no EV asperations. I thought fiat had something arranged with tesla, to buy drivetrains off them for EV?

Fiat did have an electric car 20 odd years ago, a version of the Seicento. It sold in very small numbers. Marcionne I believe was not a fan of EV's so the concept was never pursued.
Linde, the forklift company, produced a motor, and had tested 500's and Ducatos. I saw them demonstrated in Frankfurt in 2010.
The idea they had was that you bring them your car and they 'electrify' it for you. Legislation killed the idea.

zilog_jones · 21-11-2019 1:21pm

colm_mcm wrote: »

They had agreed a dodge whereby Tesla would be counted in Fiats portfolio in Europe and thus reduce Fiats collective emissions. A little bit like the Aston Martin Cygnet/Toyota iQ but with no actual car.

That’s my understanding of it anyway.

There's also the Fiat 500e has been sold in the US since 2013, with a powertrain provided by Bosch. But I think it's essentially a "compliance car" for CARB states, i.e. they had to provide some sort of EV.

Mefistofelino · 21-11-2019 1:54pm

Fiat have a Ducato BEV on the market next year

Zubeneschamali · 21-11-2019 2:24pm

GeneHunt wrote: »

The next Fiat Tipo and Alfa Romeo Giulietta could probably be based on the next generation Peugeot 308/ Opel Astra platform, which is due around 2021.

Back when they did the Giulia, I think the plan was to move Alfa upscale to fit below Maserati (which was coming downscale with the Ghibli at the time).

No idea if they have plans to replace the Mito and Giulietta these days.

colm_mcm · 21-11-2019 3:32pm

If Alfa can’t compete with VW, they have no hope of competing with Audi, not to mind the next level above that.

This new conglomerate has the potential to be the next General Motors. Too many brands with no differentiators.

Zubeneschamali · 21-11-2019 3:43pm

colm_mcm wrote: »

If Alfa can’t compete with VW, they have no hope of competing with Audi, not to mind the next level above that.

The Giulia has been selling against BMW 3 series since its launch. It's a niche product, selling tens of thousands to the BMWs hundreds of thousands.

Likewise the Maserati Ghibli vs. the 5 series.

Fiat Chrysler and Peugeot to merge

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