Do we need a new Political Party?

cars14 · 14-10-2019 11:03pm #1

Do we need a new Political Party in Ireland to fight in the general election?

Many groups aren't being served by the government eg
Beef farmers, Unemployed on Job Path, Over taxed workers, Private Sector Workers funding Public Sector pay and pensions.

Could a new Party represent these people and get votes in the next General Election?

CrookedJack · 14-10-2019 11:28pm

cars14 wrote: »

Do we need a new Political Party in Ireland to fight in the general election?

Many groups aren't being served by the government eg
Beef farmers, Unemployed on Job Path, Over taxed workers, Private Sector Workers funding Public Sector pay and pensions.

Could a new Party represent these people and get votes in the next General Election?

So you want a party that can represent beef farmers and the unemployed and also over-taxed workers and the private sector. You realise those are two conflicting interests there, right? One side looking for more public spending and the other looking for tax cuts.

So really what you're saying is you want a populist party that will promise everything to everyone just to get in power with no intention of delivering (since it's impossible to please both the above opposite interests).

In that case, no we don't need such a party. We could easily pop next door to brexitland if we want our politicians to spend their whole time insisting that the impossible is easy, just to keep power.

Salary Negotiator · 14-10-2019 11:31pm

Sounds like a load of populist policies, we have FF for that.

Harry Palmr · 14-10-2019 11:42pm

What kind of party could represent all of the above under one umbrella?

Oh I know - Fianna Fial.

CrabRevolution · 14-10-2019 11:44pm

cars14 wrote: »

Do we need a new Political Party in Ireland to fight in the general election?

Many groups aren't being served by the government eg
Beef farmers, Unemployed on Job Path, Over taxed workers, Private Sector Workers funding Public Sector pay and pensions.

Could a new Party represent these people and get votes in the next General Election?

So no actual policies, just fight an election based on impossible promises to please everyone simultaneously?

It's a good strategy that has worked for Fianna Fáil before, but not the wisest, and also we hardly need a new party to copy it.

Sonny noggs · 15-10-2019 10:14am

How about that new party that Paul Murphy just announced?

ancapailldorcha · 15-10-2019 10:36am

Mod: Serious discussion only please.

riclad · 15-10-2019 2:44pm

In theory the labour party represent working class people ,there are going to be some changes in tax policy for self employed workers from
what i read in the papers .
I think it would be pointless to set up a new party just to represent farmers, and taxpayers and the unemployed .
The problem i see is there,s not much difference between fianna fail and fine gael, in terms of economic policy and taxation and social welfare .
This countrys owes about 200 billion which was borrowed to rescue the banks and stabilise the economy .
I cannot see any political party making any significant change,s to the
tax system in the future especially the paye system .
So what will happen is either fianna fail or fine gael will get into power
and we will continue along unless there,s a major crisis caused by brexit or
maybe a recession.
Politicians from all the partys act as if the present boom will continue
and there,s no chance of a recession in the future .
So they offer anything to certain groups in order to get elected .
We will see small changes in things like tax breaks for people to buy
electric cars and green taxs to encourage people to use less petrol or diesel .
This doe,s not help people who live in rural area,s who cannot afford to spend 50k on an electric car and have to use a car
to travel to work or to school .

James Brown · 15-10-2019 3:00pm

A party that sticks to their manifesto would be a start. We know things change in the realities of office but parties should be punished for 'just something you say to get elected', the bigger the more so. At least then you know what you're getting when you vote.

The big thing is working tax payers not being able to afford to support themselves, be it child care, housing etc.
Looking to those on welfare is pointless. An element at all levels of society will take if offered. We should be working towards the need for less subsidies than vilifying those that take them, especially as the vast majority need and deserve them.

We need move to more independence. We are too reliant on placating international investment funds and corporations. We need more home grown industry IMO. We don't need miles of factories to compete in the digital and ever more green age.

L1011 · 15-10-2019 7:08pm

If you go in to coalition you are not going to be able to stick to your manifesto in full. If you expect a party to be able to do so you are going to have to ignore reality.

The last outright majority was 1977 and that was with gerrymandered constituencies (that backfired, as they were expected to deliver the opposite result).

Even in the long FF era of the 60s/70s they were often a minority government.

James Brown · 15-10-2019 7:09pm

L1011 wrote: »

If you go in to coalition you are not going to be able to stick to your manifesto in full. If you expect a party to be able to do so you are going to have to ignore reality.

The last outright majority was 1977 and that was with gerrymandered constituencies (that backfired, as they were expected to deliver the opposite result).

Even in the long FF era of the 60s/70s they were often a minority government.

I don't.

We know things change in the realities of office but parties should be punished for 'just something you say to get elected', the bigger the more so.

Pretty clear.
Called out on things within reason. Made up to get elected, with no effort at follow through.

L1011 · 15-10-2019 7:13pm

Matt Barrett wrote: »

I don't.

Pretty clear.
Called out on things within reason. Made up to get elected, with no effort at follow through.

And when the effort is blocked by your coalition partner, how do you sell it to the public that you tried?

James Brown · 15-10-2019 8:22pm

L1011 wrote: »

And when the effort is blocked by your coalition partner, how do you sell it to the public that you tried?

That it was blocked by your coalition partner.
I'm talking about blarney to get elected. It's all too common practice. Any new party would likely be guilty.

TallyRand · 15-10-2019 11:50pm

A new party? No, we need another way entirely. Democracy doesn’t really work great, it’s a bit of a has been and politics like everything else should evolve.

Political parties are like football teams now, I’d love if at the least, each senior party figures filled in a questionnaire of party beliefs without disclosing to politicians in the party and then each member filled in the same questionnaire you’d have FF who should be Lab, FG who really are Remus and all sorts

Also, each TD should be asked things like “you are minister of finance and must make a budget of X billion euro, how do you do it” and see where exactly they lie rather than all hurl from the ditch with their “team”

Good loser · 16-10-2019 12:32am

We're overwhelmed with political parties.

Remember all the Independents in the last election. Aontu since and Murphy's outfit. The SD's pre the last election.

One 'hole in the head' is enough.

friendlyfun · 19-10-2019 8:28am

I believe we are saturated with new political parties in Ireland. Most of them new ones who aren't offering much. Far too many left wing parties who can't agree on any form of alliance it seems.

Wanderer78 · 19-10-2019 8:38am

friendlyfun wrote:

I believe we are saturated with new political parties in Ireland. Most of them new ones who aren't offering much. Far too many left wing parties who can't agree on any form of alliance it seems.

Add a few alt right parties, and there would be a bit of craic

L1011 · 19-10-2019 8:16pm

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Add a few alt right parties, and there would be a bit of craic

We have at least three.

riclad · 19-10-2019 8:23pm

The last thing we need is new party,s
,the only change i can see in the 10 years ,is more emphasis on green issue,s ,
and new laws about marriage and abortion .
which reflects the view,s of younger voter,s.
If trump is right wing or alt right then i would prefer not to see any alt right partys get into power in ireland.
We still have the senate, so t,ds can retire after a few years with large pensions ,70k plus.
If the senate was closed down they would have the money to build another 10k house,s in dublin , which would solve the homeless crisis .

antimatterx · 20-10-2019 10:19pm

We have far too many political parties right now that take up a couple of seats. This is going to make it harder going forward to establish a government after each election. There is currently no clear path to a party winning a majority, or even two parties that can tolerate each other forming a coalition.

All I can see for the feasible future is FG/FF minority governments. Or a rainbow coalition. I can see Fine Gael, Labour and the Green party forming a rainbow coalition next year, but I don't see it lasting the 5 years. They have different agendas and policies they wish to pursue. Although I'm suprised the current government has lasted this far.

Geuze · 21-10-2019 10:47am

riclad wrote: »

We still have the senate, so t,ds can retire after a few years with large pensions ,70k plus.
If the senate was closed down they would have the money to build another 10k house,s in dublin , which would solve the homeless crisis .

A TD pension is 45k approx, assuming full service.

The Senate costs (10,000)(250,000) = 2.5bn????

It does not.

James Brown · 21-10-2019 1:37pm

riclad wrote: »

The last thing we need is new party,s
,the only change i can see in the 10 years ,is more emphasis on green issue,s ,
and new laws about marriage and abortion .
which reflects the view,s of younger voter,s.
If trump is right wing or alt right then i would prefer not to see any alt right partys get into power in ireland.
We still have the senate, so t,ds can retire after a few years with large pensions ,70k plus.
If the senate was closed down they would have the money to build another 10k house,s in dublin , which would solve the homeless crisis .

That's why we need something. The SD's were a disappointment but the best option currently. They've room to improve but we need a break from the usual chancers.

CrabRevolution · 21-10-2019 1:50pm

riclad wrote: »

The last thing we need is new party,s
,the only change i can see in the 10 years ,is more emphasis on green issue,s ,
and new laws about marriage and abortion .
which reflects the view,s of younger voter,s.
If trump is right wing or alt right then i would prefer not to see any alt right partys get into power in ireland.
We still have the senate, so t,ds can retire after a few years with large pensions ,70k plus.
If the senate was closed down they would have the money to build another 10k house,s in dublin , which would solve the homeless crisis .

The following article is old, but the pay hasn't changed all that much. Basic Pay for example has only increased in line with Public Sector pay from €65'621 to €68'111.

https://www.thejournal.ie/cost-of-abolishing-seanad-761429-Jan2013/

The cost then was just over €8.5 Million, including salaries, expenses, party funding, secretaries, stationary etc.

We'll say it has increased to €10 Million since then. There's no point including pensions in the cost as even if the Seanad was abolished tomorrow, we'd be paying the pensions of former senators for decades to come, so there would be no savings.

So either we'll be building some cheap €1000 houses, or it'll take several thousand years for the Seanad abolition to recoup the real cost of building 10'000 houses....

James Brown · 21-10-2019 2:22pm

CrabRevolution wrote: »

The following article is old, but the pay hasn't changed all that much. Basic Pay for example has only increased in line with Public Sector pay from €65'621 to €68'111.

https://www.thejournal.ie/cost-of-abolishing-seanad-761429-Jan2013/

The cost then was just over €8.5 Million, including salaries, expenses, party funding, secretaries, stationary etc.

We'll say it has increased to €10 Million since then. There's no point including pensions in the cost as even if the Seanad was abolished tomorrow, we'd be paying the pensions of former senators for decades to come, so there would be no savings.

So either we'll be building some cheap €1000 houses, or it'll take several thousand years for the Seanad abolition to recoup the real cost of building 10'000 houses....

It's a pat on the back for failed politicians and a nice earner for academic blowhards.
Soon after they got to stay we had one raising the issue of Ice cream trucks being too loud and another about how 'seagulls are losing the run of themselves'. Money well spent.

CrabRevolution · 21-10-2019 2:24pm

Matt Barrett wrote: »

It's a pat on the back for failed politicians and a nice earner for academic blowhards.
Soon after they got to stay we had one raising the issue of Ice cream trucks being too loud and another about how 'seagulls are losing the run of themselves'. Money well spent.

I voted to abolish the Seanad in the referendum in 2013, and still reckon it should be done away with.
My point was more about the bizarrely exaggerated costs....

is_that_so · 21-10-2019 2:25pm

Matt Barrett wrote: »

That's why we need something. The SD's were a disappointment but the best option currently. They've room to improve but we need a break from the usual chancers.

They are a different type of chancer! They never offered anything tangible to the public and their primary aim is to re-elect the two ladies.

James Brown · 21-10-2019 2:37pm

is_that_so wrote: »

They are a different type of chancer! They never offered anything tangible to the public and their primary aim is to re-elect the two ladies.

I like Shortall.

is_that_so · 21-10-2019 4:32pm

Matt Barrett wrote: »

I like Shortall.

Individually they are both fine but really not party leaders nor visionaries. I don't think much of the SD brand.

Jim2007 · 22-10-2019 10:25am

CrabRevolution wrote: »

I voted to abolish the Seanad in the referendum in 2013, and still reckon it should be done away with.
My point was more about the bizarrely exaggerated costs....

So you want democracy on the cheap....

BalcombeSt4 · 25-10-2019 12:12am

CrabRevolution wrote: »

So no actual policies, just fight an election based on impossible promises to please everyone simultaneously?

It's a good strategy that has worked for Fianna Fáil before, but not the wisest, and also we hardly need a new party to copy it.

So who are Fianna Fail, Fine Gael, Sinn Fein, Social Democrats, AAAPBP & Labour suppose to be representing?

And no OP, there's plenty of parties out there we can just start a coup against & replace their policies & leaders if we feel strongly enough about it.

BalcombeSt4 · 25-10-2019 12:21am

Matt Barrett wrote: »

I like Shortall.

I do like the SD's anti-corruption policy. Makes a nice change.

Do we need a new Political Party?

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