Where are the electric cars for the masses?

Ubbquittious · 10-10-2019 9:02pm

a battery pack isn't cheap. try to source a lithium ion battery pack with 10s of KWh it's not going to be cheap anywhere.

Also they market these EV yokes at technophiles who want all the latest tech sh1tes on their vehicle 'as standard' and this pushes up the price more than if they would just plonk an electric motor and a battery pack into a dacia dustbin.

Turbohymac · 10-10-2019 9:07pm

I think Andy from sligo wants a free electric car..

Andy From Sligo · 10-10-2019 9:18pm

Turbohymac wrote: »

I think Andy from sligo wants a free electric car..

oh , I wouldnt say no - are you offering?

No, being honest though - i am still a bit miffed way there is a difference of thousands between a new Clio and a electric Zoe.

Ya, i take into account batteries for EV's are expensive ... but so are petrol engines

Seweryn · 10-10-2019 9:20pm

Danzy wrote: »

The auto industry have also copped on that Electricity is going to replace the Internal Combustion engine, same as that engine replaced the horse.

No, the combustion engine replaced the electric motor over 100 years ago. Now the old technology is coming back.

Andy From Sligo · 10-10-2019 9:22pm

whisky_galore wrote: »

Electric vehicles have been around longer than the internal combustion engined car.

I know, even my earliest memories was being 7 years old in the 70's and hearing the electric milk float on my estate at 4am

krissovo · 10-10-2019 10:21pm

bazz26 wrote: »

How does 3. make EVs expensive? The manufacturer is still getting the same money for the vehicle except some of it is coming from the government rather than the consumer. Or is there gouging going on by manufacturers to make as much money as possible while they are still a niche product?

The easiest way to explain is using the home charger grant as an example:

SEAI offer €600 to install a charger at home, people are like whey hey free money so book a install from one of the many suppliers that costs about €1100. Customer pays €1100 and claims €600 back so the customer pay’s €500 and they think they got a good deal.

Break the numbers down and you soon see that the suppliers are doing well from the install:

Charger (Hardware) costs ~€550 using a standard wallbox/Tesla home charger as an example
Additional cabling ~€100
Electrician Labor 1 > 2hrs @ ~€80 per hour direct labour or €20 per hour salary

It is possible to install a home charger for €600 so in some cases suppliers are making 80%+ margin per home install and the customer is happy as they get €600 from the government.

So grants fill the consumer with a false confidence that they can spend as they are getting a deal and suppliers can and do increase their margin as there is no pressure to reduce margin.

Ubbquittious · 10-10-2019 11:00pm

krissovo wrote: »

The easiest way to explain is using the home charger grant as an example:

SEAI offer €600 to install a charger at home, people are like whey hey free money so book a install from one of the many suppliers that costs about €1100. Customer pays €1100 and claims €600 back so the customer pay’s €500 and they think they got a good deal.

Break the numbers down and you soon see that the suppliers are doing well from the install:

Charger (Hardware) costs ~€550 using a standard wallbox/Tesla home charger as an example
Additional cabling ~€100
Electrician Labor 1 > 2hrs @ ~€80 per hour direct labour or €20 per hour salary

It is possible to install a home charger for €600 so in some cases suppliers are making 80%+ margin per home install and the customer is happy as they get €600 from the government.

So grants fill the consumer with a false confidence that they can spend as they are getting a deal and suppliers can and do increase their margin as there is no pressure to reduce margin.

The prices really head for the moon as soon as grants are mentioned. A farmer told me not so long ago he got some automatic cow feeding equipment for the low low price of 14k. These were 7k one time before grants were introduced and now the manufacturer are pocketing the extra 7k.

I don't know one case where the end user is the person benefitting the most from the grant

CramCycle · 10-10-2019 11:07pm

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

thats what I got to thinking and then I am like , hold on this shouldnt be about that. You have people being told to consider buy electric vehicle because they are better for the the environment - so why if anyone, are people / manufacturers profiteering out of this?

also , with the iPhone are you not normally paying over the odds because of the name your paying for. I cant see that you would be paying over the odds because of the name of renault say .. not even Hyundai .. maybe a BMW electric or Audi maybe .. but Renault???

Is this a serious question, are you actually asking why a company wants to make money?

El_Duderino 09 · 10-10-2019 11:14pm

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

thats what I got to thinking and then I am like , hold on this shouldnt be about that. You have people being told to consider buy electric vehicle because they are better for the the environment - so why if anyone, are people / manufacturers profiteering out of this?

Ah here. It's capitalism doing its thing. Capitalism doesn't care about the environment, that isn't its job. It's job it to make money and the pressure to buy electric acts to increase demand and capitalism dictates that demand is met with price increase.

Andy From Sligo · 10-10-2019 11:14pm

CramCycle wrote: »

Is this a serious question, are you actually asking why a company wants to make money?

well i suppose if the difference between a new Clio petrol and an electric Zoe is €10 grand (and thats apart from what they get in grant money) - thats a big gap. And I think the Zoe if i am not wrong is the cheapest BEV you can buy at the moment (we wont talk Twizzy in this instance)

um, then yeah.

course a business has to make money, but then there is making profit and then sort of like ripping people off .. the same people who are urged to start thinking about making their next car purchase a BEV

Andy From Sligo · 10-10-2019 11:23pm

I suppose if people stopped paying 26 grand for the zoe tomorrow and voted with their feet then renault would have no option to considerably lower their price to sell them?

But whilst the 'I have got to have new technology, but I dont really give a toss about the environment as such but I have over 26grand burning a hole in my pocket so I can afford it' and the Zoe's are selling for that price I can see why renault dont make them available cheaper for Joe public who only has 15/16 grand to spend on a car

that would be a great experiment - have 2 car's in the Renault Showroom. One the New ICE Clio at 16grand and a Renault BEV Zoe at 16Grand or near as dammit and then just see which one the public would buy -

Philb76 · 10-10-2019 11:42pm

JPA wrote: »

New technology requires massive R and D expenditure. The initial releases will try to recoup that money, then when the money is recouped the profit starts rolling in.
Everything a company does is for profit.

Even to develop a newer petrol or diesel engine takes years and millions so that makers sense as they are nearly all starting from scratch

krissovo · 10-10-2019 11:58pm

There is no doubt EV’s today are more expensive but the big picture is certainly they will / should be cheaper than ICE cars. There is less moving parts so less manufacturing..... you get the picture. We are still in the early adopter phase so take any product that launches, 4K TV for example the early adopters pay a premium.

Also in certain scenarios EV’s are currently cheaper.

If you look from a top down perspective of the market EV’s can be massively cheaper to own than ICE cars. My household owned 2 premium cars 6 months ago, a high end Mercedes and Volvo SUV. These have been replaced with relatively cheaper EV’s a Leaf 40 and BMW I3, both are still expensive cars but we have been bit by the moral bug and do value the environment and also now benefit from cheap fuel and tax. We are saving on the initial purchasing cost of the cars (from our usual) plus saving €10k per year on tax & fuel savings.

Andy From Sligo · 11-10-2019 12:07am

so you dont reckon the manufacturers will carry on for too long doing such a big difference between the price of a BEV and ICE car soon then and should level off as more people buy them? - what timeframe roughly are we talking to lower down to a price the masses can afford? - 5 years? 10 years?

I thought there was a very marked increase of people buying BEV's in 2019 yet the prices havent really budged .. all thats come on line is the dearer Kona and the newer leaf and all cars with a higher range per full charge.

Is it likely the range will level off at around 400km on one charge and then the cost of EV's coming down in price , or will the range go up even further leading to the cost of a EV staying the same price to buy or even go higher in purchase price?

Philb76 · 11-10-2019 12:16am

Like current ice cars wot engine it has will obviously reflect the price and assume it will be the same with evs longer range and more power will be more expensive the current leaf took a massive price hike and I know this cos a friend bought the very last of the old model in 2018 and said he couldn't afford the new model

Philb76 · 11-10-2019 12:19am

I suppose with evs is how low can you genuinely go a 1litre car will go as far as a Bentley

krissovo · 11-10-2019 12:32am

What’s happened is that the demand for EV’s has increased and the supply is low which equals high price.

The Leaf 40 example above is a good one, in early 2019 you could buy a SVE leaf for ~€30k (list price) after grants. Once the stock of Kona’s, E-Niro’s & Ioniq’s dried up nissan raised the price by €1500.

Even The 2nd hand market has gone crazy with old leaf’s appreciating in value.

I paid for my Leaf in June that cost just over €28k for a SVE, took delivery for 192 and my car actually appreciated when I drove off the forecourt.

Next year is a different story, Tesla Model 3’s are available, apparently plenty of Kona’s, e-Niro’s, Ioniq’s and ID3 will start shipping. Give it 3 years and the prices will normalise.

Andy From Sligo · 11-10-2019 12:50am

Philb76 wrote: »

Like current ice cars wot engine it has will obviously reflect the price and assume it will be the same with evs longer range and more power will be more expensive the current leaf took a massive price hike and I know this cos a friend bought the very last of the old model in 2018 and said he couldn't afford the new model

They wont be going the same way with BEV's though.

They wont have in the new line up of BEV

the car dealer is not going to say "Hello sir this entry level EV has a range of 350km .... but let me show you the next model up in our showroom with the higher range of 450km , its more expensive but its worth it" - I cannot ever see that happening , becuase the manufacturers know that people who are buying a new EV wants one that will go the longest/furthest on one charge.

Only way I can see if they did want to have staged prices on EV's is to cut down on the trim inside and out. - maybe not everyone who wants to buy an electric car wants all the bells and whistles.

"Hello sir this is our entry level Zoe , it doesnt have heated seats or air conditioning or sat nav built in just a bog standard radio head unit with a line in and usb socket, and steel wheels instead of alloy wheels and plain white in colour and bog standard upholstery and only electric windows on the drivers and passenger doors... but over here if you follow me we have the dearer Zoe with heated seat, sat nav, air conditioning , alloy wheels , all electric windows an colours and better seats and upholstery .."

I have seen that on ICE cars and diesels where they have different levels of specs and prices to match but i am not seeing that on EV's , well not at the moment.

Unless maybe the likes of Dacia (who are part owned by renault arent they) come along one day and do to the EV market what they done with the ICE sandero's and the like.

If the price was right (say if it matched the price of the clio at 16 grand) but the Zoe for that price didnt come with air conditioning, no heated seats, bog standard radio and no sat nav and basic upholstery and no automatic headlights or rain sensors, no parking sensors no other bells and whistles just a plain car but a plain Electric vehicle would I be interested? - hell yeah I reckon . - but would others thats the thing.

I'm almost wondering that when a dealer tries to sell an electric car if they make more of what you are doing to help the environment, and the cheaper tax and the aspect of never having to buy petrol ever again and the savings that can be gained as opposed to ICE .... or do they sell it saying "look what you are getting for the money here - look it has heated seats, alloy wheels, sat nav with multimedia , automatic this and that, all bells and whistles and gadgets etc etc.." ?

Philb76 · 11-10-2019 1:18am

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

They wont be going the same way with BEV's though.

They wont have in the new line up of BEV

the car dealer is not going to say "Hello sir this entry level EV has a range of 350km .... but let me show you the next model up in our showroom with the higher range of 450km , its more expensive but its worth it" - I cannot ever see that happening , becuase the manufacturers know that people who are buying a new EV wants one that will go the longest/furthest on one charge.

Only way I can see if they did want to have staged prices on EV's is to cut down on the trim inside and out. - maybe not everyone who wants to buy an electric car wants all the bells and whistles.

"Hello sir this is our entry level Zoe , it doesnt have heated seats or air conditioning or sat nav built in just a bog standard radio head unit with a line in and usb socket, and steel wheels instead of alloy wheels and plain white in colour and bog standard upholstery and only electric windows on the drivers and passenger doors... but over here if you follow me we have the dearer Zoe with heated seat, sat nav, air conditioning , alloy wheels , all electric windows an colours and better seats and upholstery .."

I have seen that on ICE cars and diesels where they have different levels of specs and prices to match but i am not seeing that on EV's , well not at the moment.

Unless maybe the likes of Dacia (who are part owned by renault arent they) come along one day and do to the EV market what they done with the ICE sandero's and the like.

If the price was right (say if it matched the price of the clio at 16 grand) but the Zoe for that price didnt come with air conditioning, no heated seats, bog standard radio and no sat nav and basic upholstery and no automatic headlights or rain sensors, no parking sensors no other bells and whistles just a plain car but a plain Electric vehicle would I be interested? - hell yeah I reckon . - but would others thats the thing.

I'm almost wondering that when a dealer tries to sell an electric car if they make more of what you are doing to help the environment, and the cheaper tax and the aspect of never having to buy petrol ever again and the savings that can be gained as opposed to ICE .... or do they sell it saying "look what you are getting for the money here - look it has heated seats, alloy wheels, sat nav with multimedia , automatic this and that, all bells and whistles and gadgets etc etc.." ?

They did do that with the big diesel sell to people who didn't need them dealers couldn't give a feck about the environment they need to sell cars

Shefwedfan · 11-10-2019 7:59am

krissovo wrote: »

What’s happened is that the demand for EV’s has increased and the supply is low which equals high price.

The Leaf 40 example above is a good one, in early 2019 you could buy a SVE leaf for ~€30k (list price) after grants. Once the stock of Kona’s, E-Niro’s & Ioniq’s dried up nissan raised the price by €1500.

Even The 2nd hand market has gone crazy with old leaf’s appreciating in value.

I paid for my Leaf in June that cost just over €28k for a SVE, took delivery for 192 and my car actually appreciated when I drove off the forecourt.

Next year is a different story, Tesla Model 3’s are available, apparently plenty of Kona’s, e-Niro’s, Ioniq’s and ID3 will start shipping. Give it 3 years and the prices will normalise.

They changed the spec on the Leaf and that was the difference in price....7-8” screen etc

zilog_jones · 11-10-2019 9:35am

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

the car dealer is not going to say "Hello sir this entry level EV has a range of 350km .... but let me show you the next model up in our showroom with the higher range of 450km , its more expensive but its worth it" - I cannot ever see that happening , becuase the manufacturers know that people who are buying a new EV wants one that will go the longest/furthest on one charge.

Only way I can see if they did want to have staged prices on EV's is to cut down on the trim inside and out. - maybe not everyone who wants to buy an electric car wants all the bells and whistles.

"Hello sir this is our entry level Zoe , it doesnt have heated seats or air conditioning or sat nav built in just a bog standard radio head unit with a line in and usb socket, and steel wheels instead of alloy wheels and plain white in colour and bog standard upholstery and only electric windows on the drivers and passenger doors... but over here if you follow me we have the dearer Zoe with heated seat, sat nav, air conditioning , alloy wheels , all electric windows an colours and better seats and upholstery .."

I have seen that on ICE cars and diesels where they have different levels of specs and prices to match but i am not seeing that on EV's , well not at the moment.

Unless maybe the likes of Dacia (who are part owned by renault arent they) come along one day and do to the EV market what they done with the ICE sandero's and the like.

If the price was right (say if it matched the price of the clio at 16 grand) but the Zoe for that price didnt come with air conditioning, no heated seats, bog standard radio and no sat nav and basic upholstery and no automatic headlights or rain sensors, no parking sensors no other bells and whistles just a plain car but a plain Electric vehicle would I be interested? - hell yeah I reckon . - but would others thats the thing.

The biggest cost with increased range is the batteries, and cutting down on accessories and equipment is not going to make up for the thousands more that extra 10-20 kWh or so will cost. Also, things like steel wheels will reduce efficiency, which will have a notable impact on range.

Not everyone needs massive range either. Especially when considering an EV as a second car, something with 100-150 km range can be sufficient and would cost drastically less than a car with >400 km range.

kirving · 11-10-2019 9:37am

Philb76 wrote: »

Even to develop a newer petrol or diesel engine takes years and millions so that makers sense as they are nearly all starting from scratch

Try again, hundreds of millions to billions!

Some of the problem is that EV tech is moving so fast that manufacturers can't amortise the initial investment over say 15+ years as they can with a standard engine design. Sure there are incremental upgrades, but most engine blocks are nigh on identical for even longer than that.

With EV's, today's tech can and will be out of day in months/years, not decades, so that investment must be recouped sooner rather than later.

Grants certainly influence price. Just look what Bike to Work schemes did to the cost of otherwise standard commuter bikes. I has a number of identical Trek bikes in my teens, as did my brother afterward. A model which was €400 then, rose to the guts of €700 within a couple of years, with little to no better specs.

samih · 11-10-2019 1:28pm

Clio is cheap because Renault has lots of competion and they have to build as many as they can sell to stay in races.

Nissan uses the same electric motor in cars between 110 and 215 BHP and I suspect the motor could handle even more power so the cost of designing these will be really cheap once the volume picks up. For consumers to get a good deal the maker has to have a good battery deal in place and viable competion in the market place to force the average price of cars down due to competition.

Andy From Sligo · 11-10-2019 3:03pm

I shouldnt think we will get to this stage but in showrooms they could say something like

" here is our entry level Zoe with a 66kw motor and 22kwh battery , its our cheapest model and its ideal for town driving and short trips.. but if you just follow me here is our Zoe 80kw motor model with 41kw-h battery it is more expensive but it does come with a range up to 400km on one charge"

but they wont do that , they will not have the choice for the customer they will just have the 80kw motor 41kwh one brand new and if you want to go for the other one you wil have to buy t on the used car market.

at least with ICE cars you have more of a choice in a car howroom - you pick your car you like and if you want one with a higher capacity petrol engine say, you can, but you have to pay more for it

babybuilder · 11-10-2019 3:25pm

krissovo wrote: »

What’s happened is that the demand for EV’s has increased and the supply is low which equals high price.

The Leaf 40 example above is a good one, in early 2019 you could buy a SVE leaf for ~€30k (list price) after grants. Once the stock of Kona’s, E-Niro’s & Ioniq’s dried up nissan raised the price by €1500.

Even The 2nd hand market has gone crazy with old leaf’s appreciating in value.

I paid for my Leaf in June that cost just over €28k for a SVE, took delivery for 192 and my car actually appreciated when I drove off the forecourt.

Next year is a different story, Tesla Model 3’s are available, apparently plenty of Kona’s, e-Niro’s, Ioniq’s and ID3 will start shipping. Give it 3 years and the prices will normalise.

€28k for sve - you got a great deal there. Cheapest I was quoted was 33k

liamog · 11-10-2019 3:29pm

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

I shouldnt think we will get to this stage but in showrooms they could say something like

" here is our entry level Zoe with a 66kw motor and 22kwh battery , its our cheapest model and its ideal for town driving and short trips.. but if you just follow me here is our Zoe 80kw motor model with 41kw-h battery it is more expensive but it does come with a range up to 400km on one charge"

but they wont do that , they will not have the choice for the customer they will just have the 80kw motor 41kwh one brand new and if you want to go for the other one you wil have to buy t on the used car market.

at least with ICE cars you have more of a choice in a car howroom - you pick your car you like and if you want one with a higher capacity petrol engine say, you can, but you have to pay more for it

Sounds exactly like what we'll see from the ID.3 starting summer next year.
3 choices of battery size, 45 kWh, 58 kWh, and 77 kWh. With your spec choice then available on top of that.

Andy From Sligo · 11-10-2019 3:43pm

liamog wrote: »

Sounds exactly like what we'll see from the ID.3 starting summer next year.
3 choices of battery size, 45 kWh, 58 kWh, and 77 kWh. With your spec choice then available on top of that.

yes, but being Volkswagen even the lowest model will come with a hefty price tag I reckon

I saw the e-golf at a seminar the other week , cant remember the price but I think it was around 36grand - 10 grand dearer than the renault Zoe or maybe I am getting the price mixed up with the kona

The Audi e-tron SUV at the same event was priced at 135k :O

liamog · 11-10-2019 3:50pm

Widely expected to come in around €30,000 for the low spec entry spec. That's pretty competitive with the Golf that starts at €24,500 when you look at monthly ownership costs.

11-10-2019 3:59pm

As somebody said, it's like the iphone thing. Battery cars are promoted and priced for well to do who want to buy some sort of exclusivity. Before they would have some BMWs 530. I suspect what you'll find is that specs will go up every couple of years and the price will go up to match, and the fanboys will have to upgrade. Like iphones this will release cars to the second hand market, but still at inflated price.

We will need to wait for the equivalent Samsung car, and then the Huawei car before there is any mass market.

In short, battery cars are over priced because they can be.

VikingG · 11-10-2019 4:05pm

Surely the reason that they are more expensive is that they sell less.... Any design costs, tooling, startup costs (NRE) is spread over far fewer cars. The current ratio of ICE Sales to Electric is around 50 to 1 .. that means that those startup costs are 50 times more expensive in an electric car. Think of it this way if those costs contributed €1000 to an ICE car .. it should be €50000 to an electric. Now I know it gets muddled with shared components etc but you get the idea.

That is a huge markup that is applied to each electric car. I actually think that most auto companies (like Renault with the Zoe) are actually losing money with each sale.. but they are writing that off as they look at the long term goal.

Where are the electric cars for the masses?

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